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Old April 2nd, 2014, 10:36 AM   #1541
veresk
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Originally Posted by Valtari View Post
But is possible. You could boost tourism in Kaliningrand. Once it was one of the most beautiful cities in Europe…But that is up to you.
Well, at last our authorities have given serious thought to the tourism development in the region (Kaliningrad). Recently the ministry of tourism in the region presented several projects of the development of the resort towns. You may look at the pictures, there is no need in translation as it's planned to build hotels, marinas, recreation areas, parks, spa, etc.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 12:21 PM   #1542
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What truly scary is how devoid of basic human compassion people in this thread are, blaming the nation that suffered the loss of 27 mln people in WW2 for not caring enough about sone old german rocks.
So what is your point? Do you mean these old german rocks shouldn't be cared enough because of war losses? How is it connected at all? Sadly, this way of thinking is typical for some Russians and this makes me feel depressed.
Posters in this thread (unlike some other politically touchy threads) are generally rather accurate and correct. And, yes, the state of many (if not most) pieces of heritage in Kaliningrad region is evidently very poor. Ignoring this has nothing to do with compassion. Pointing to the war is a lame excuse. There's been some time since the war.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 12:34 PM   #1543
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Roman_P
It's a difficult question. You shouldn't ignore the soviet past and the ideology. Frankly speaking, the authorities (unlike local people) started to think about our heritage only in the past 5-10 years, and the development trend of the region is now connected to the traditions in architecture before the war and renovation of old objects.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 02:04 PM   #1544
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It's a difficult question. You shouldn't ignore the soviet past and the ideology. Frankly speaking, the authorities (unlike local people) started to think about our heritage only in the past 5-10 years, and the development trend of the region is now connected to the traditions in architecture before the war and renovation of old objects.
Yes, I know there are positive shifts. The most important thing maybe is that people (and authorities in particular) start to realize that it is their heritage not someone else's. Because earlier the situation was sometimes quite paradoxical: local people reacted very nervously to any speculations that this land was not theirs (and rightly so) but when it came to heritage protection they replied in a way similar to what GammaHamster had shown ("this is German stuff so why should we care?").
I don't mean of course that all Kaliningraders (or even most of them) followed this way of thinking but such point of view was quite common and still exists today. As some poster in the Russian sector of the forum wrote not long ago (not a literal citation, but the same meaning): "Why should we bother about Kaliningrad while so much Russian heritage is neglected?". Sad.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 02:34 PM   #1545
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Roman_P,
This land has always been foreign (чужая), alien etc. to those who haven't lived here. And that's quite understandable as we've been tought since school to love the homeland and learned the history of Russian towns except for Kaliningrad, it was nothing special about it. The region was forbidden, no tourists, especially from the rest of Russia, no any connection to the rest of the country, the city just existed its own way. There hasn't been done as much as for the last 10 years. I recollect my memories about the city of 90s and I can surely say it was dull and gray in all ways. I like how the town is developing, not in all ways but the existing projects are quite interesting, there is a surprising wish to meet the olden time if I can say so.
If you're interested you may read how the celebration of the 750th anniversary of Koenigsberg was met by the local authorities and the federal ones. Explains a lot.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 05:53 PM   #1546
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Interesting and insightful conversation above. It seems to me that the perceptions ultimately lead back to a basic difficulty and bias regarding Prussia--that previously developed and highly prosperous areas were German are viewed with an inherent distaste. From government officials to current locals, they're conflicted with the desire to rebuilt, restore, and enliven the areas on one hand, while innately fearing such a rebirth reflects the significance of their German history.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 07:17 PM   #1547
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post


Interesting and insightful conversation above. It seems to me that the perceptions ultimately lead back to a basic difficulty and bias regarding Prussia--that previously developed and highly prosperous areas were German are viewed with an inherent distaste. From government officials to current locals, they're conflicted with the desire to rebuilt, restore, and enliven the areas on one hand, while innately fearing such a rebirth reflects the significance of their German history.
You know, when they were talking about the history of Russia we were more interested in the history of the region. I may assume that it happens in any region but I think we are more interested in it here. Local people think that the history of this land is their history, especially those who was born here and has been living here all their life and it doesn't matter how paradoxically it sounds. That is why, for example, we don't want a governor from another city but any of the Kaliningrad region because they won't understand the specific of this land, they won't value what we inherited as Roman_P noticed above: "Why should we bother about Kaliningrad while so much Russian heritage is neglected?". However, even the local authorities don't render the final decisions - I think there's no need to explain what I mean.
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Тем, кто родился на берегу моря, всегда дует ветер странствий. От него деревья не колышутся, зато души трепещут...
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 01:31 AM   #1548
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You know, when they were talking about the history of Russia we were more interested in the history of the region. I may assume that it happens in any region but I think we are more interested in it here. Local people think that the history of this land is their history, especially those who was born here and has been living here all their life and it doesn't matter how paradoxically it sounds. That is why, for example, we don't want a governor from another city but any of the Kaliningrad region because they won't understand the specific of this land, they won't value what we inherited as Roman_P noticed above: "Why should we bother about Kaliningrad while so much Russian heritage is neglected?". However, even the local authorities don't render the final decisions - I think there's no need to explain what I mean.
Not exactly sure what you mean, but if I understand, the current locals feel the history of the place is their history, not former times. If that is true, it's short-sighted and unfortunate. Surely, one can look at any part of the globe and find displaced peoples who both yearn for their former lands as don't forget them even if unattainable. Likewise, newcomers stake their claims and hold hard-fast to their newly acquired lands. Without the histories that make up the decades and centuries before the current inhabitants got there (by gift, war, stealing, reclamation or any thing else), we're doomed to extending the quagmire into future generations.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 08:55 AM   #1549
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Not exactly sure what you mean
I mean we really feel nostalgy for Koenigsberg despite the fact we didn't see it in the pre-war time.
Last year I had a conversation on the forum with a guy from the Netherlands who wrote his bachelor's thesis in cultural anthropology and development sociology "Fishing for a German past in Kaliningrad". He sent me his works. If anybody is interested I can send it by e-mail, they are not large.
He explains a lot of things we're talking about here.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 11:33 AM   #1550
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Konigsberg. 1957

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Old April 3rd, 2014, 12:46 PM   #1551
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Not exactly sure what you mean, but if I understand, the current locals feel the history of the place is their history, not former times. If that is true, it's short-sighted and unfortunate. Surely, one can look at any part of the globe and find displaced peoples who both yearn for their former lands as don't forget them even if unattainable. Likewise, newcomers stake their claims and hold hard-fast to their newly acquired lands. Without the histories that make up the decades and centuries before the current inhabitants got there (by gift, war, stealing, reclamation or any thing else), we're doomed to extending the quagmire into future generations.

We can link it with the discussion about reconstruction projects in general.
It cannot be solved always in only one way. But we must use our common sense and respect general (recognized by majority) canons of beauty in architecture.
Simple, Central Europe has very complicated history. Terms "our land", "their land", "our heritage", "their heritage" are very hard to define here.
As for Królewiec/Konigsberg/Kaliningrad/etc. and East Prussia in general, existing architectural heritage belongs mostly to Germans.
But it doesn't mean that Poles, Lithuanians and Russian should deny that existence, leave it neglected in purpose to slowly destroy it, or blow it in the air to destroy it quicker. Why? This is my view:
For example, Polish/Lithuanian architecture in former East Prussia was mostly wooden, so to make cites and villages in that area "Polish/Lithuanian/trully Prussian" again we should raze them to the ground and then rebuilt them with wood - like in XV century. Where is common sense here?
Or maybe, after general demolition, we should build only new, modernistic architecture (House of the Soviets like) to make them "our". But modern architecture means ugly architecture to many - and it is a majority I believe, so why we should fight with the recognized canons of beauty?
Poles and Lithuanians know it, and usually are trying to preserve what was left from the past.
Russians still have a problem with that, but it's only a matter of time. And in time perhaps we would also change our vocabulary here: not Russians - but "Kaliningradians" (or something like that)?

Last edited by Euzebi; April 4th, 2014 at 10:09 AM. Reason: stupid mistake ;)
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 02:19 PM   #1552
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Roman Catholic Church in Krasna Łąka/Schönwiese (Gothic with Renaissance façade ordered by Jan Zawadzki in the 17th century; one of a few places that voted in favour of Poland during East Prussian plebiscite, but remained part of East Prussia after 1920)










Interior:
- 2 Baroque and 1 Rococo altars
- Reiten family tombstone

Roman Catholic Church in Żuławka Sztumska/Posilge (Gothic with Baroque elements; renovated by David Knobloch and Barthel Ranisch between 1695 and 1696, consecrated by Jerzy Potocki in 1700)






Interior:
- Baroque altars (founded by Kazimierz Szczepański)
- Epitaph of Kazimierz Szczepański from 1718

Manor in Czernin/Hohendorf (built in the 17th century by the Szeliski family; one of a few places that voted in favour of Poland during East Prussian plebiscite, but remained part of East Prussia after 1920)



Property of Hans von Osterode, von Brandt, Szeliski, Kczewski, Schlemmer, von Haiński, von Puttkamer and Donimirski families. The last owner of manor in Czernin/Hohendorf, Witold Donimirski died in Sachsenhausen concentration camp in 1939. His son, Stanisław Donimirski received honorary citizenship of Sztum/Stuhm.

Burial Chapel of the Donimirski family (built in 1840)
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 03:10 PM   #1553
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In memoriam city of Königsberg


The "happy time of peace" in Königsberg











source: forum-kenig.ru
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Old April 4th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #1554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euzebi View Post
We can link it with the discussion about reconstruction projects in general.
It cannot be solved always in only one way. But we must use our common sense and respect general (recognized by majority) cannons of beauty in architecture.
Simple, Central Europe has very complicated history. Terms "our land", "their land", "our heritage", "their heritage" are very hard to define here.
As for Królewiec/Konigsberg/Kaliningrad/etc. and East Prussia in general, existing architectural heritage belongs mostly to Germans.
But it doesn't mean that Poles, Latvian and Russian should deny that existence, leave it neglected in purpose to slowly destroy it, or blow it in the air to destroy it quicker. Why? This is my view:
For example, Polish/Latvian architecture in former East Prussia was mostly wooden, so to make cites and villages in that area "Polish/Latvian/trully Prussian" again we should raze them to the ground and then rebuilt them with wood - like in XV century. Where is common sense here?
Or maybe, after general demolition, we should build only new, modernistic architecture (House of the Soviets like) to make them "our". But modern architecture means ugly architecture to many - and it is a majority I believe, so why we should fight with the recognized cannons of beauty?
Poles and Latvians know it, and usually are trying to preserve what was left from the past.
Russians still have a problem with that, but it's only a matter of time. And in time perhaps we would also change our vocabulary here: not Russians - but "Kaliningradians" (or something like that)?
Latvians??
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Old April 4th, 2014, 01:52 AM   #1555
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Relax, Latvians too .
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Old April 4th, 2014, 10:04 AM   #1556
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Sorry, as you can clearly see - English very hard for poor Euzebi
I'll correct it immediately. And I'm truly sorry for that unwittingly mix of nations. Please don't take that stupid mistake as a sign of my subconscious desire to swap Lithuanians with Latvians as neighbors
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Old April 4th, 2014, 12:02 PM   #1557
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The Palace of the Sierakowski family (Ogończyk coat of arms) in Waplewo Wielkie/Waplitz (45.7% votes in favour of Poland during East Prussian plebiscite)










The Palace Chapel (built between 1870 and 1872)



Property of Rabe, Niemojewski, Biberstein-Zawadzki, Chełstowski, Bagniewski and Sierakowski (since 1759) families.

Manor of the Kalkstein family in Klecewo


Roman Catholic Church in Kalwa




Epitaph of Wałdowski, Wilczewski and Kalkstein families (the church founders)


Manor of the Donimirski family in Waplewo Wielkie/Waplitz


Brochwicz coat of arms and Polish noble statue (erected in 1759)


Manors of the Donimirski family in Ramzy Małe/Klein Ramsen, Cygusy and Zajezierze/Hintersee






St.Anne's Church in Sztum/Stuhm






White Manor (converted into hotel) in Podzamcze/Unterberg (built in the 16th century by Jerzy Sokołowski, rebuilt in the 17th century after Polish-Swedish wars)



Property of Sokołowski, Kretkowski, Dziewanowski and Boris families.

Palace in Bogatyńskie/Tungen (built by Stanisław Rutkowski, Pobóg coat of arms, in 1772), Warmia




Post #1531 has been updated.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #1558
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Do those families still live there or is it in name only?
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Old April 4th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #1559
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Do those families still live there or is it in name only?
Name only. Aristocracy do not exist in Poland.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 04:16 PM   #1560
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Name only. Aristocracy do not exist in Poland.
The question wasn't about aristocracy in existence.

Batavier wanted to know if the homes were still owned or lived in by descendants of the original families. Apparently not, particularly since reparations for former owners is not a priority agenda item in Poland.
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