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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:43 PM   #1601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombi View Post
I think came time to rename villages/cities to their former/historical name.
For what reason? Would you prefer to put the historic architectural legacy on top of the combined ethnic & contemporary architectural one, and yet disregard the 3-generational Polish/Russian presence after WW2 with current names?

In any case, if one wanted to come back to historical names, I think that would be Prussian/Galindian/Yotvingian, rather than German...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba...bes_c_1200.svg
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Old July 26th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #1602
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Yes, because it is not good to erase history of 3 after-war generations, we rather ignore 700 years of german history and refer to old prussians. Makes totally sense.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #1603
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Liste der Namen ehemals ostpreußischer Orte in Polen
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d..._Orte_in_Polen

As you can see, most of the names weren't changed at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Most of the "changes" were simple transliterations: Wardommen - Wardomy, Oletzko - Olecko, Lauenburg - Lębork, Eylau - Iława, Osterode - Ostróda, Mohrungen - Morąg, and so on.
btw.
In 1938, the Nazi government (1933–1945) changed thousands of toponyms (especially names of cities and villages) of Old Prussian and Polish origin to newly created German names; about 50% of the existing names were changed in 1938 alone.

Ps. Act of 6 January 2005 on National and Ethnic Minorities and on the Regional Languages:

"Names in minority languages may not refer to names between 1933 and 1945 granted by the Third German Reich or the Soviet Union. The aim of this limitation is to avoid the return to names introduced during the Second World War by German and Soviet occupying authorities, and to avoid the return to names introduced by Germans after 1933 when in what was then Germany’s eastern territory, the geographic names of non-Germanic origin were Germanized."

http://isap.sejm.gov.pl/DetailsServl...WDU20050170141
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Old July 26th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #1604
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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Yes, because it is not good to erase history of 3 after-war generations, we rather ignore 700 years of german history and refer to old prussians. Makes totally sense.
actually you may want to read Norman Davies book Vanished Kingdom which devotes a large section to this region which he calls the "watery land of the Prusai". The history of this region is far more complex than just calling it German, Germans there were of course, but others as well who defined this region and who were not of German origin.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old July 26th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Yes, because it is not good to erase history of 3 after-war generations, we rather ignore 700 years of german history and refer to old prussians. Makes totally sense.
Ignore 600/700 years of German history in East Prussia? How so?

That period is certainly not related to German history only, i.e.:
- the Hohenzollern's Duchy of Prussia became Poland's fief in 1525,
- Royal Prussia existed as the Polish province between 1466 and 1772,
- Polish-speaking population (Masurians, Warmiaks), who seemingly became germanised only in late 19th or beginning of 20th century,
- Poles in Koenigsberg (professors & scholars at the university, printing houses, parishes),
- activity of the people like Mrongowiusz, Gizewiusz, Kętrzyński,
and so on...

But even if we focus purely on Teutonic/German architectural heritage in former East Prussia (the part that wasn't destroyed during WW2, of course), after viewing all this beautiful thread it would be quite rude to say that such heritage is ignored (at least in Poland), don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
In 1938, the Nazi government (1933–1945) changed thousands of toponyms (especially names of cities and villages) of Old Prussian and Polish origin to newly created German names; about 50% of the existing names were changed in 1938 alone.
True, I forgot about that one. The names of more than 1500 towns & villages were changed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_re...ian_placenames

And the same thing happened in German Silesia in 1931-38.




Polish names of Silesian locations from a Prussian King's decree back in 1750.
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Last edited by bork; July 26th, 2014 at 10:23 PM.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:00 AM   #1606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batavier View Post
Why did Poland rename this town after a person, in this case Pieniężno, while there was already a Polish name for Mehlsack, namely Melzak?
The name of this town - terribly destroyed by the Russians in 1945 - was changed to honour Seweryn Pieniężny, Polish journalist, editor and chief of the daily "Gazeta Olsztyńska" ("The Olsztyn journal), the most important Polish-language newspaper published in the former East Prussia for the numerous Polish miniority living there. In September 1939 the Germans arrested him, shut down the "Gazeta Olsztyńska" (published since 1886!), destroyed his house and finally executed him in February 1940.


In Olsztyn one of the main streets is also named after Seweryn Pieniężny, a great Polish patriot.

And this is how the rebuilt "House of the Gazeta Olsztyńska" looks like now:

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Old July 27th, 2014, 02:01 AM   #1607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
actually you may want to read Norman Davies book Vanished Kingdom which devotes a large section to this region which he calls the "watery land of the Prusai". The history of this region is far more complex than just calling it German, Germans there were of course, but others as well who defined this region and who were not of German origin.
I'm pretty aware of that. But to be clear, the german settlement with its christianisation and city laws laid the foundation for almost anything which can be seen there today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bork View Post
But even if we focus purely on Teutonic/German architectural heritage in former East Prussia (the part that wasn't destroyed during WW2, of course), after viewing all this beautiful thread it would be quite rude to say that such heritage is ignored (at least in Poland), don't you think?
I didn't say so. I actually quite glad about how things go in southern east prussia nowadays. But it seemed weird to me, that you rejected the idea of renaming cities into polish versions of names that are less than 80 years old while proposing to use pre christian names instead.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 08:28 PM   #1608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
I didn't say so. I actually quite glad about how things go in southern east prussia nowadays. But it seemed weird to me, that you rejected the idea of renaming cities into polish versions of names that are less than 80 years old while proposing to use pre christian names instead.
Don't get it wrong but actually are you reading the comments which are replies to what did you wrote?
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Old July 27th, 2014, 11:13 PM   #1609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
But it seemed weird to me, that you rejected the idea of renaming cities into polish versions of names that are less than 80 years old while proposing to use pre christian names instead.
In relation to the above sentence, could you perhaps explain one more time what you had in mind?
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Old July 28th, 2014, 01:13 AM   #1610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombi View Post
I think came time to rename villages/cities to their former/historical name.
you answered

Quote:
Originally Posted by bork View Post
For what reason? Would you prefer to put the historic architectural legacy on top of the combined ethnic & contemporary architectural one, and yet disregard the 3-generational Polish/Russian presence after WW2 with current names?

In any case, if one wanted to come back to historical names, I think that would be Prussian/Galindian/Yotvingian, rather than German...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba...bes_c_1200.svg
I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Yes, because it is not good to erase history of 3 after-war generations, we rather ignore 700 years of german history and refer to old prussians. Makes totally sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
I'm pretty aware of that. But to be clear, the german settlement with its christianisation and city laws laid the foundation for almost anything which can be seen there today.

But it seemed weird to me, that you rejected the idea of renaming cities into polish versions of names that are less than 80 years old while proposing to use pre christian names instead.
Thats it.


I am not a fan of renaming cities in east prussia at all or making it in to a polish Alsace. The germans were almost completely expelled in a very short time. These historical caesura should be seen somewhere and names are the best and easiest ways to do so.
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Old July 28th, 2014, 04:00 AM   #1611
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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
quiet shocking, also I have never seen the Germanised version of the Polish name Sienkiewicz = Schenkewitz, noticed it on signs in pics above.
Technically, I think it's the opposite...the German name has been Slavicised. I think, though, that we are saying the same thing...
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Old July 28th, 2014, 04:07 AM   #1612
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Very interesting story about Koenigberg... I like the idea of internationalizing Koenigsberg -- but even more interesting, the relationship between Kaliningrad and mainland Russia.

Could Kaliningrad establish itself as a separate "nation" -- a new Prussia?

Will Putin stand for a part of Russia being disconnected from mainland Russia -- is Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg Russia's "East Prussia" -- can Russia live with "Lithuanian - Polish Corridor">

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-980260.html
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Old July 28th, 2014, 10:43 AM   #1613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
Technically, I think it's the opposite...the German name has been Slavicised. I think, though, that we are saying the same thing...
omg...

Well let me help you with explanation how the last names are created in Slavic languages, in this case in the Polish language from the today's Bielarus and Ukraine.

Quote:
Na odojcowski charakter nazwiska wskazuje sufiks –ewicz, który początkowo (tj. w XVI-XVIII w.) pełnił funkcję patronimiczną. Patronimika (nazwiska odojcowskie), to najstarszy typ nazwiska, notowany w źródłach od XIII wieku. Najdawniejsze przyrostki to : -ic, -ewic oraz –owic, później pod wpływem kresowym (języka ukraińskiego): -icz, -ewicz, -owicz. Syn Jana to Janowic(z), Szymona – Szymonowic(z), tak też powstały kresowe północne nazwiska: Iwaszkiewicz, Mickiewicz, Niemcewicz, Sienkiewicz itd. Później nazwiska typu odojcowskiego mogły powstawać od dopełniaczy, mogły być też tworzone przyrostkami -ak, -czyk, -ek, -ik.
translation (by me):
The name's patronomic (from father) character of the name is pointed in sufix -ewicz, which at the beginning (in XVI-XVIII c.) had patronomic function. Patronomics (names from the name of the father), is the oldest type of the name, noted in sources from XIII century. The oldest suffixes are: - ic, -ewic, and -owic, later under the influence from 'the borderlands' (Ukrainian language): -cz, -ewicz, -owicz. Son of Jan was Janowic(z), Szymon - Szymonowic(z), the same way there were names created at North part of the borderlands: Iwaszkiewicz, Mickiewicz, Niemcewicz, Sienkiewicz etc. Later the patronomic names started to be created from genitive case, also could be created with the suffixes: -ak, -czyk, -ek, ik.


Well I am afraid that it is absolutely bollox saying that German name has been Slavicised, you have the above translation about creating the names in Slavic languages (not only Polish, as this particular example refers to, but especially now in Russian, Ukrainian, Bielarusian etc. Vladimir Vladimirovich, Petro Antonov).

Similar way, there were Jewish last names created btw.

And I don't want to be picky but did you ever heard about Bismarck's politics in relation to non German population living in Prussia?

I hope this entry help you and others to fight this urban myth you're creating

EDIT:
Same way as was created 'Schenkewitz' it done to many 'americanised' Polish names which many of were 'created' on Ellis Island as a result of immigration officers were unable to write down the Polish (and not only Polish) names in register.
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Old July 28th, 2014, 01:55 PM   #1614
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Actually Schenke, or Schänke, is a common german word meaning tavern or pub. I agree with you that it is more likely that Schenkewitz is germanised version of Sienkiewicz. But it is not completely impossible that the slavic ending witz was added to a german name. This was not an uncommon thing if german settlers lived in diaspora at first.
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Old July 28th, 2014, 02:23 PM   #1615
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Agree Saxonia, with the part of Schanke/Schenke, but take a look at the whole context of it as names with Polish ending -icz etc. were massively germanized under Bismarck rule and makes absolutely no logic to change German name into slavianised name when it was straight away reason for being under 'special treatment' from authorities. Don't you think? Also take under consideration that this region is from where many people having i.e. -icz ending of the names in the Polish names. To know it for sure we would have to ask the fella from the picture I'd say

It's not flame or so, just don't forget that Prusy was the region when many cultures mixed and only first part of the XX century was under strong German propaganda while nationalism was arising (and second part of the same century with the soviet propaganda).
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Old July 28th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #1616
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[IMG]http://oi59.************/2gvo3du.jpg[/IMG]

For unknown reason (probably because I'm a new user) I wasn't able to post the above content, so had to find a workaround...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
Technically, I think it's the opposite...the German name has been Slavicised. I think, though, that we are saying the same thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by catcha View Post
omg...

Well let me help you with explanation how the last names are created in Slavic languages, in this case in the Polish language from the today's Bielarus and Ukraine.
In case of probably the best known holder of this surname, Henryk Sienkiewicz, his family is of Tatar origin on the paternal side.

Plus on that name as well:
Quote:
Meaning & History

Patronymic from the given name Sienko, a diminutive of the archaic name Siemion, a form of Simon. This is the last name of the Polish Nobel Laureate Henryk Sienkiewicz.
http://surnames.behindthename.com/name/sienkiewicz
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Old July 29th, 2014, 02:03 AM   #1617
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I think came time to rename Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig to their former/historical slavic names Berlany, Drežďany and Lipsk
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Old July 29th, 2014, 03:07 AM   #1618
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del

Last edited by Dzwonsson; July 29th, 2014 at 03:26 AM.
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Old July 29th, 2014, 09:42 PM   #1619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bork View Post
http://oi59.************/2gvo3du.jpg

For unknown reason (probably because I'm a new user) I wasn't able to post the above content, so had to find a workaround...
Hi Saxonia, I wanted to make sure that my response was visible to you & other forumers (sometimes images uploaded from certain hosting sites don't show up...). So just in case, here's the link: http://oi59.************/2gvo3du.jpg
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Old July 30th, 2014, 03:42 PM   #1620
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I'd prefer this thread to contain more pictures and architectural consideration again - as you can easily spot we're at the Architecture forum with the European Classic Architecture subforum.

Thank you!
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