daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 9th, 2014, 10:59 PM   #1641
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goy View Post
There are a plenty of their descendents linving in countries such USA, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Argentine... so, I think EU should pass a bill in your European Parlament called Law of Return giving them european citzenship and settle them in Pomerania, Silesia and East Prussia.
Definitely, I agree that some actions should be taken to encourage Pomeranians (e.g. Slovincians), Masurians, Warmiaks, Silesians, Sorbians, etc. to return to their native land (not to mention millions of Poles who have left Poland after 2004). After all, they share similar genotype (high frequency of R1a) and have the same Slavic ancestry as the other Poles.

We are all one family


-----------------------

Btw, map below shows origin of inhabitants of new post-WW2 Polish areas (according to data from 1950 census)
__________________

Rombi liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; January 7th, 2015 at 06:54 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 10th, 2014, 12:59 AM   #1642
UrbanMyth
Registered User
 
UrbanMyth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Raleigh-Durham
Posts: 582
Likes (Received): 189

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Definitely, I agree that some actions should be taken to encourage Pomeranians (e.g. Slovincians), Masurians, Warmiaks, Silesians, etc. to return to their native land (not to mention millions of Poles that left Poland after 2004). After all, they share similar genotype (high frequency of R1a) and have the same Slavic ancestry as the other Poles.

We are all one family
This conversation is exhausting. Can we lay off the justifications for the reallocation of the spoils of war, please?

It's too bad the Russians ignored that when they shoved the Polish state 300 miles to the west.

I don't know how we can, because the title includes the term "heritage" but writing off the contribution of Germans and 100's of years of German settlement in Pomerania, Silesia and Prussia smacks of chauvinism.

If we started drawing borders based on genetics, northern Italy, Holland, Luxembourg, etc. would become part of a greater Germany (Germanic stock); and Poland (Slavic stock), a part of a greater Russia.
__________________

keepthepast liked this post
UrbanMyth no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #1643
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
This conversation is exhausting. Can we lay off the justifications for the reallocation of the spoils of war, please?
I just took part in trolling, obviously some of the previous posts were posted by nationalist trolls. I thought that everyone can participate

Quote:
It's too bad the Russians ignored that when they shoved the Polish state 300 miles to the west.
From Zbąszyń (a town on the border with Germany during the Interbellum) to Oder/Odra River (today's border) is about 100 km.

Quote:
I don't know how we can, because the title includes the term "heritage" but writing off the contribution of Germans and 100's of years of German settlement in Pomerania, Silesia and Prussia smacks of chauvinism.
Did you see my previous posts with hundreds of photos taken in cities with mixed German-Polish heritage?

Quote:
If we started drawing borders based on genetics, northern Italy, Holland, Luxembourg, etc. would become part of a greater Germany (Germanic stock);
"Greater Germany (Germanic stock)" - is it some kind of joke?



Many Germans are not even genetically Germanic. For example, what can be observed is that former Slavic areas in Germany and Austria correlate with high % of people with R1a haplogroup...





* The percentage of R1a among Lusatian Sorbs is 63.39%.

I'm wondering if Germanic DNA and language ever spread east of the Elbe River in significant scale before the Middle Ages. Probably not, based on the recent research (David Reich) it seems more likely that Germanic people invaded autochtonous (since at least the early Bronze Age) population similar genetically to ancestors of modern Slavs in the second half of the first millennium (see: East Francia).

R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 was found in Late Bronze Age person from Halberstadt (today's Germany), he belonged to Lusatian Culture (1113 -1021 cal BCE).


About 30% of Poles are bearers of the same R1a clade (Z280).

R1a clades

Quote:
and Poland (Slavic stock), a part of a greater Russia.
Of course, people in Central and Eastern Europe have a common ancestry...Venethi (proto-Slavs). "The populous race of the Venethi" (Venetharum natio populosa) had split in the 4th century, when Hermanaric took arms against the Venethi (Hermanaricus in Venethos arma commovit) and defeated them. The Goths' rampage drove some of the Venethi, so-called Antes east. Bozh (fl. c. 380) is the first known ruler of East Slavs (rex Antorum). Venethi regained power over lost lands in the 5th century, and in the 400s-500s began, along with Antes and perhaps with expansion of Adriatic Veneti (ancestors of Slovenes), colonising the Balkans. Jordanes in "De origine actibusque Getarum" (550-551) informs that the Venethi/Venedi (proto-Slavs) "have now three names, Venethi [West Slavs], Antes [East Slavs], Sclaveni [South Slavs]" (tria nunc nomina ediderunt, id est Venethi, Antes, Sclaveni).

West/East Slavic R1a (Vistula Veneti)

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 16th, 2015 at 04:51 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2014, 01:52 AM   #1644
UrbanMyth
Registered User
 
UrbanMyth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Raleigh-Durham
Posts: 582
Likes (Received): 189

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
You have to learn more about subclades of R1a, e.g. L-260
Frankly, I don't care. People can justify chauvinism any way they want, RS_UK_PL. As a defender of Poland, one would think that the lesson had been learned. But, I think there's an underlying political conversation here that may need a different venue or thread. Perhaps a thread that lets people talk about what each of us would consider the proper borders based on history, language, race, ethnicity, gastronomy, etc.? Wouldn't that be fun??

My observation, as an outsider interested in architecture and human settlement, is that the expulsion of populations is just wrong and unjustified -- particularly after 500 years of settlement and justifying it generally by saying that "it happened before" is lame. (I'm not saying you are saying this -- just that I think it's just below the surface in these threads that include once-German or once-Polish lands and cities).

What happened to all the populations in these areas is a blemish on human history.

++++For the record, I'm of Acadien and Neapolitan descent and my own people, the Acadiens, were expelled from their homes and 1000's died in what is today called Nova Scotia, when the British took over this part of French North America after the Treaty of 1763...of course, let's not get started about what European (Spanish, British, and French) settlers in the Western Hemisphere did to Native Americans!!! Oy!++++
__________________

keepthepast, JValjean liked this post

Last edited by UrbanMyth; December 10th, 2014 at 02:16 AM.
UrbanMyth no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2014, 11:25 AM   #1645
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
My observation, as an outsider interested in architecture and human settlement, is that the expulsion of populations is just wrong and unjustified -- particularly after 500 years of settlement and justifying it generally by saying that "it happened before" is lame.

What happened to all the populations in these areas is a blemish on human history.
Did you ever see me writing something different than you just wrote? What Germany did during the Generalplan Ost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_cr...rced_expulsion) when about 2,478,000 Poles were evicted by the German authorities from their homes and up to 928,000 Poles were ethnically cleansed to make way for the foreign colonists was absolutely horrific. And then decision made by Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin to resettle millions of Poles and Germans after the war...
__________________

WB2010 liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; December 10th, 2014 at 11:56 AM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #1646
Mruczek
Warrior of Excel
 
Mruczek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Outside Blue Banana
Posts: 10,441
Likes (Received): 13470

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
This is u/c (or rather: u/r, under reconstruction) Old Town of Elbląg (most of buildings visible were build after 1980, except from churches, granaries and several rent-houses). In Polish section of SSC there are controversies about this job, some people dislike this kind of architecture, some just love it. What do you think of it, guys?
__________________
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill
Z archiwum Mruczka:
Buk Miłosław Szamotuły
Barcelona Budapeszt Grodno Kowno Madryt Moskwa Ukraina
Mruczek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2014, 01:38 PM   #1647
greg111
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,459
Likes (Received): 385

I was in Elblag/Elbing 18 years ago Several houses looked good, mayby 4 or 5 (more or less precisely reconstructed). The rest - rather in poor taste.
greg111 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2014, 06:13 PM   #1648
Batavier
"Covfefe" ??? Enjoy!
 
Batavier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Leiden
Posts: 857
Likes (Received): 831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
This is u/c (or rather: u/r, under reconstruction) Old Town of Elbląg (most of buildings visible were build after 1980, except from churches, granaries and several rent-houses). In Polish section of SSC there are controversies about this job, some people dislike this kind of architecture, some just love it. What do you think of it, guys?
I would prefer historical houses, but still I like it a lot because the historical grid and density are restored. In stead of replaced by simple flat blocks. In a way Elblag is creating something new instead of something rebuilt, which is rather unique and I admire that.

Last edited by Batavier; December 11th, 2014 at 06:08 PM.
Batavier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2014, 05:49 AM   #1649
desertpunk
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
 
desertpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ELP ~ ABQ
Posts: 55,648
Likes (Received): 53453

Keep to the topic please. Litigate your historical grievances elsewhere.
__________________
We are floating in space...
desertpunk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #1650
Ludi
✪ Mr. Ludolf ✪
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 15,218
Likes (Received): 34656

Germany, and specially Prussia allways were mixed by germanic, keltic, slavic and nordic people.

I am german, my families came from Slesia, of course I also have slavic roots.

So plz stop thinking in this "Nazi-Ideologie = German ≠ slavic", its bullshit.

And there have been allways slavic and germanic settlers between what we call "germany and Poland" today. Prussia also was an baltic, germanic and slavic state.
__________________
Pics/ Bilder ©Ludi

soweit nicht anders angegeben außerhalb von den Skybars.

Berlin Projects

husyta, Urbanista1, Chadoh25 liked this post
Ludi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2014, 08:38 PM   #1651
Mruczek
Warrior of Excel
 
Mruczek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Outside Blue Banana
Posts: 10,441
Likes (Received): 13470

And that is Pieniężno (Melzak, Mehlsack) in historical Warmia region (Ermland). As one can see, more grass than buildings



The city was the place of heavy fighting in Feb 1945, heavy artillery was used. The main city church and town hall (semi-reconstructed, at present disused) are visible. Most of the city "fabric" are "historicised" blocks of flats from late 1980s. All the other is grass...

Here is the link to the larger picture.:
http://wrota.warmia.mazury.pl/pienie...0/6546_R06.jpg
__________________
We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us. Winston Churchill
Z archiwum Mruczka:
Buk Miłosław Szamotuły
Barcelona Budapeszt Grodno Kowno Madryt Moskwa Ukraina

mar04 liked this post
Mruczek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #1652
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Memorial plaque from the 18th century in Bartąg/Bertung, Warmia (commemorating the Kalnassy family, renovated in 2014)

See: Joachim Otto Zygmunt Kalnassy

World War I memorial plaque (found recently in Kajkowo/Buchwalde, to be reconstructed)
__________________

Chadoh25 liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; December 11th, 2014 at 11:10 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2015, 02:22 PM   #1653
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Wojnowo/Eckertsdorf, Masuria




















* In 1968, there were 412 Old Believers living in Wojnowo and Gałkowo.
New houses in Wojnowo








__________________
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 02:46 PM   #1654
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

In Береговое/Tenkitten where Saint Adalbert's (Święty Wojciech) death hypothetically took place, a 8,78-meter iron cross was established. It was founded by Count Dohna-Wundlaken and Countess Elżbieta Wielopolska in 1831. The monument was destroyed in 1949.



To celebrate the 1000th anniversary of Saint Adalbert's (Święty Wojciech) death, Polish Catholics rebuilt the monument in Береговое, a 10-meter cross was cast in Elbląg in 1996.

__________________

Rombi, piotrus81, TimothyR liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 3rd, 2015 at 03:11 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 11:22 AM   #1655
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

WW1 cemetery in Markowskie/Markowsken, Masuria


An article about Jan Jenczio from Markowskie/Markowsken, written by Masurian Erwin Kruk.

Tobiasz Stullich (Masurian poet): "W Markowskich pod Oleckiem umarł dnia 10 lutego t.r. sławny człowiek Jenczo, którego sławę pan będzie doskonalej mógł zalecić, gdyż ja tylko z dala o nim słyszałem. Syn jego jest od pierwszego lutego u nas za dozorcę nad rybołówstwem, bardzo porządny człowiek. Pojechał na pogrzeb ojca swego 14 lutego. - - -

Ci, co drugich nauczają,
Jako słońce lśnić się mają,
Z aniołami żyć w radości,
Z Bogiem w wiecznej społeczności.

A którzy się usiłują
I się o to doczynkują,
Aby wielu w tej miłości
Przyszło do sprawiedliwości;

Ci za stół Boży zasiędą
I jak gwiazdy świecić będą.
Za swe prace, bez wątpienia,
Dojdą wiecznego zbawienia.
- Stullich, wójt".

Krasicki's Orangery in Lidzbark Warmiński/Heilsberg project (undergoing renovation works), Warmia




A few books written by Ignacy Krasicki.
__________________

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 9th, 2015 at 06:01 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 06:00 PM   #1656
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Neo-Gothic church in Gawrzyjałki/Gawrzialken, Masuria (Protestant between 1908 and 1980, since then Roman Catholic)




Former Protestant Church in Ornowo/Arnau
__________________

Saxonia, piotrus81, Urbanista1, Rombi liked this post
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 08:59 AM   #1657
Goy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 174
Likes (Received): 154

There are some groups in Kaliningrad who wants to be independent from Russia. It could be interesting to see it member of EU and Nato and in Schengen Treaty and Eurozone.
Goy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #1658
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Archaeologists have unearthed the remains of a few Slavic settlements east of the Vistula river from the Early Middle Ages, the first of which dates back ~1,200 years (9th century).

Klasztorek/Klösterchen


One of the largest Slavic settlements east of the Vistula river was Węgry/Wengern (5,5 ha)


Slavic-Prussian borderlands (Slavic border settlements highlighted in red)


Slavic settlements, strongholds, etc. in the region


As we can see above, Prussian-Slavic border was located ~5km east of the Nogat river.

More: http://pismo.pruthenia.pl/pruthenia_...ajnowszych.pdf
__________________

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 16th, 2015 at 01:35 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2015, 11:52 AM   #1659
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

The largest Prussian settlement near the Slavic-Prussian border was port of trade called Truso (described by Wulfstan of Hedeby in ca.880), the settlement with an area of over 10 ha.

Truso reconstruction




Wulfstan's voyage (ca.880)


All ports between 21 (Starigard, now Oldenburg in Holstein) and 11 (Gdańsk) belonged to West Slavs (Weonodland), while 10 was Prussian Truso, 9 Tuwangste and 8 Wiskiauten.
__________________

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 11th, 2015 at 05:37 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2015, 11:06 AM   #1660
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Roman Catholic Church in Kalwa




Epitaph of Wałdowski, Wilczewski and Kalkstein families (the church founders)
The easternmost Lusatian culture settlement dating back to the Bronze Age is located near Kalwa (see the picture below). Lusatian culture was bordering the Baltic cultures in the north-east, roughly in the same area where Slavic-Prussian border was located in the Middle Ages.


__________________

Rombi, TimothyR liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 17th, 2015 at 04:30 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
königsberg, polska

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu