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Old February 18th, 2015, 12:35 PM   #1661
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In the late Bronze Age and Iron Age the region east of the Vistula river was occupied by communities of the so-called Western Baltic Kurgans culture.


Western Baltic Kurgans culture settlements, cemeteries, etc.


Kurgan cemetery in Samławki/Samlack
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Old February 19th, 2015, 06:36 PM   #1662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
In the late Bronze Age and Iron Age the region east of the Vistula river was occupied by communities of the so-called Western Baltic Kurgans culture.
I misread "was occupied by communists".
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Old February 20th, 2015, 06:18 PM   #1663
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Old Prussian vocabulary (13th century) - LINK

English: millet
Proto-Slavic: *proso
Polish: proso
Prussian: prassan
Lithuanian: soros

English: soul
Proto-Slavic: *dūšÓ
Polish: dusza
Prussian: dusi
Lithuanian: siela

English: grey
Proto-Slavic: *sivъ
Polish: siwy
Prussian: sywan
Lithuanian: pilkas

English: stink
Proto-Slavic: *smordъ
Polish: smrˇd
Prussian: smorde
Lithuanian: tvaikas

English: moustache
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *vans
Polish: wąs
Prussian: wanso
Lithuanian: ūsai

English: mouth
Proto-Slavic: *usta
Polish: usta
Prussian: austo
Lithuanian: burna

English: meat
Proto-Indo-European: *mēmso-
Proto-Slavic: *męso
Polish: mięso
Prussian: menso
Lithuanian: susitikti

English: tilia (lime tree)
Proto-Slavic: *lipa
Polish: lipa
Prussian: lipe
Lithuanian: kalkės

English: head
Proto-Slavic: *golva
Polish: głowa
Prussian: glawo
Lithuanian: vadovas

English: winter
Proto-Indo-European: *ǵʰeymeh₂
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *źeimāˀ
Polish: zima
Prussian: semo
Lithuanian: žiema

English: city
Proto-Slavic: *město
Polish: miasto
Prussian: mestan
Lithuanian: miestas

English: chair
Proto-Slavic: *krěslo
Polish: krzesło
Prussian: creslan
Lithuanian: kėdė

English: gate
Proto-Slavic: *vorta
Polish: wrota
Prussian: warto
Lithuanian: vartai

English: chaff
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *pelua
Polish: plewa
Prussian: pelwo
Lithuanian: pelai

English: beer
Proto-Slavic: *pivo
Polish: piwo
Prussian: piwis
Lithuanian: alus

English: pub
Proto-Slavic: *kъrčьma
Polish: karczma
Prussian: karczemo
Lithuanian: smuklė

English: world
Proto-Slavic: *světъ
Polish: świat
Prussian: swetan
Lithuanian: pasaulis

Old Prussian vocabulary suggests close relations with Proto-Slavic and East Baltic languages. It also indicates very early contacts between Proto-Slavic, Old Prussian and East Baltic populations (basic words such as "winter"), perhaps Proto-Balto-Slavic community.

Some words were borrowed by Prussians in the Middle Ages, e.g. Nadele (Polish: Niedziela, English: Sunday) from Poles who adopted Christianity.

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The close relationship of the Baltic and Slavic languages is indicated by a series of common innovations not shared with other Indo-European languages, and by the fact that the relative chronology of these innovations can be established. Furthermore, there are also many correspondences in vocabulary: the Baltic and Slavic languages share many inherited words. These are either not found at all in other Indo-European languages (except when borrowed) or are inherited from Proto-Indo-European but have undergone identical changes in meaning when compared to other Indo-European languages.

Baltic and Slavic share many close phonological, lexical, morphosyntactic and accentological similarities. The notable early Indo-Europeanist August Schleicher (1861) proposed a simple solution: From Proto-Indo-European descended Proto-Balto-Slavic, out of which Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic emerged. The Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, however, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact.
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Old February 23rd, 2015, 01:54 PM   #1664
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Archaeological excavations in Olsztyn












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Old February 24th, 2015, 01:01 PM   #1665
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So you found 18 words, and do you think that Prussians were very close to Slavonics?
How many words you could find which are very simmilar to German? I'am not talking about Lithuanian and Latvian languages, which have also some simmilar words with Slavonics, most of them (Slavonics) rised on former Baltic lands, so nothing special that we have some common words. Of course some words came to Prussia with trade relationships, for examlple Fino-Ugrous have many words which got from Balts.

Main thing about Balts, that form archeological and linguistic they are known from 2000 BC, Slavonics are known from 5th century. It should have to mean something.

Baltic area according to hydronims before Slavonic expansion:

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Old February 24th, 2015, 02:23 PM   #1666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
So you found 18 words, and do you think that Prussians were very close to Slavonics?
Did you check link that I posted. There are tens of shared words between Slavic and Baltic languages. Many linguists believe that Proto-Balto-Slavic community existed at some point in history, check recent publication "Ancestry-constrained phylogenetic analysis supports the Indo-European steppe hypothesis". I'd rather follow Jānis Endzelīns' theory that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact (neighbouring cultures).

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Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
How many words you could find which are very simmilar to German?
I found one word of possibly Old Norse origin...As we know, there were Vikings' influences in Prussia.
Old Norse: sle­i
Prussian: slayo
English: sledge

There are some words of PIE's origin that do not exist in Slavic, but in Germanic languages. However, I couldn't find any words of clearly Germanic origin. Feel free to study Old Prussian vocabulary, it's available online (link).

See the Old German language distribution map in the 10th century.
Map1
Map2

I really doubt that Germanic language was more widespread before that time, that's why we don't have Germanic loanwords in Old Prussian. Expansion of German language and Germanic people began with the Frankish, and later with Holy Roman Empire's conquests.

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Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
I'm not talking about Lithuanian and Latvian languages, which have also some simmilar words with Slavonics, most of them (Slavonics) rised on former Baltic lands, so nothing special that we have some common words.
I don't think that Slavic ethnogenesis occurred in the former Baltic lands. Probably it started within Lusatian culture (R1a-Z280 found in Halberstadt is very common among Slavs). Your map of Baltic territories do not interfere with Lusatian, which was followed by Pomeranian cultures' territory. Both cultures, Baltic and Pomeranian shared border...



History of Proto-Slavic language (Wikipedia):
Pre-Slavic (c. 1500 BC — 300 AD): A long, stable period of gradual development. The most significant phonological developments during this period involved the prosodic system, e.g. tonal and other register distinctions on syllables.
Proto-Slavic proper or Early Common Slavic (c. 300 — 600 AD): The early, uniform stage of Common Slavic, a period of rapid phonological change. There are no dialectal distinctions reconstructible from this period.
Middle Common Slavic (c. 600 — 800 AD): The stage with the earliest identifiable dialectal distinctions. Rapid phonological change continued. Although some dialectal variation did exist, most sound changes were still uniform and consistent in their application. By the end of this stage, the vowel and consonant phonemes of the language were largely the same as those still found in the modern languages. For this reason, reconstructed "Proto-Slavic" forms commonly found in scholarly works and etymological dictionaries normally correspond to this period.

Quote:
Main thing about Balts, that form archeological and linguistic they are known from 2000 BC, Slavonics are known from 5th century.
When Baltic people appeared for the first time in the written sources under name "Balts"?

"Sclaveni" (Slavs) were mentioned by Jordanes in the 6th century, but he clearly stated that in the past they were known under a different name, "Venethi" (known from written sources since the 1st century AD). This term was often applied to Western Slavs in the Middle Ages, the first historical ruler of Poland was called Vindakonungr in Old Norse.

Quote:
Of course some words came to Prussia with trade relationships, for examlple Fino-Ugrous have many words which got from Balts.
Definitely, Balts maintained relations with Finno-Ugric people, that's why they have a lot of N1c1.
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Old February 25th, 2015, 12:40 AM   #1667
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DNA has locked within it our entire history of settlement and peregrinations. Language alone cannot explain our history. More and more anthropologists are beginning to believe that slavs have been in this region for thousands of years based on DNA finds, so it seems plausible that other groups broke off from this main Indo-european branch.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old February 25th, 2015, 01:31 AM   #1668
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Did you check link that I posted. There are tens of shared words between Slavic and Baltic languages. Many linguists believe that Proto-Balto-Slavic community existed at some point in history, check recent publication "Ancestry-constrained phylogenetic analysis supports the Indo-European steppe hypothesis". I'd rather follow Jānis Endzelīns' theory that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact (neighbouring cultures).
Problem is - this theory is rather an exaggeration. Thing is that in the Baltic language we have a lot of sysonyms for each word. Take, for example, Siela. Siela or Dusia/Dusza means a "Soil" but in christian way. We say Vėlė which actually has nothing to do with christian understanding of the Soil. Vėlė (a soil), Vėliava (a Flag; derived frm "a buch of people that are going to war/battle to day"), Vėlynes (Ancestor's fest/Forefathers, one of the most important feasts for us) etc. Vėlė generally is associated with a dark time, nigh, fog, evening, with a death, ancestors, war etc.. In the Blatic culture this is not painted in negative colours.

Same applies to Old Prussians.
Let's not forget that all recorded texts in Old Prussia are written by foreigners or in some cases by local people but who were from different dialectic background (i.e Lithuanians), so they left their input.

Currently Old Prussia is reconstructed, but still it is an artificial langage. Baltic languages are very unique in many senses so if we ignore thousnads of synonyms for each word, and stick only on "common words", than...it is useless.
Unfortunately, we can not re-create prussian language; only we can use LithuanianLatvian language for the "more complete" reconstruction (what was partly did). On the other hand, in Lithuania certain region a lot of prussian old word remained due to prussian settlements in GDL (i.e one of the main reason why managed to resist to Teutonic Order was a high number of military folk from yotvingians, semigalians, prussian during their emigration time). There are also pretty match material regarding this issue (see, i.e. Ziatela dialect);

Quote:
I found one word of possibly Old Norse origin...As we know, there were Vikings' influences in Prussia.
Old Norse: sle­i
Prussian: slayo
English: sledge

There are some words of PIE's origin that do not exist in Slavic, but in Germanic languages. However, I couldn't find any words of clearly Germanic origin. Feel free to study Old Prussian vocabulary, it's available online (link).

See the Old German language distribution map in the 10th century.
Map1
Map2

I really doubt that Germanic language was more widespread before that time, that's why we don't have Germanic loanwords in Old Prussian. Expansion of German language and Germanic people began with the Frankish, and later with Holy Roman Empire's conquests.
Correct. German origin loan words came late, mainly after Northern Crusade. According to Kulakov (famous Russian archeologist from Kaliningrad Oblast), Viking Settlements in Prussia, or Lithuania (Curronian) - they did not succed with anything in LT territory, except for trade reasons or in Latvia - merged with local culture. Let's say, in XX century first side there were written thousands of local folk stories and myths which are more common to standartic old scandinavian myth line/storytelling tradition rather than with lithuania. Although, both Baltcs and Norherns Germans had a strong influence from Ugro Finnic (shamanistical features of Odin derived from Ugro Finn influence), Perkunas (in LT/LV Prussia) and Perkele (in Finland) is the same etc. This is part of non-material culture which might explain a lot of things.
However, there are a lot of words in the blatic language like kunigas (a Duke or later on - a prest), pinigas (money) etc. which are (northern) german origin words that during the ages became common in all B. dialects.
(pinigas- asmoks (ziatela dialect))

Quote:
When Baltic people appeared for the first time in the written sources under name "Balts"?

"Sclaveni" (Slavs) were mentioned by Jordanes in the 6th century, but he clearly stated that in the past they were known under a different name, "Venethi" (known from written sources since the 1st century AD). This term was often applied to Western Slavs in the Middle Ages, the first historical ruler of Poland was called Vindakonungr in Old Norse.

Maybe you have heard about Aesti? The Balts is pretty new terms but it was necessary to distinguish us from purely Finno Ugric people. In turn, Aesti is rather a generic term that include both - the Baltic people and Estonians (or Baltic Finns).
Please note that Curonians, semigalians, lithuanians, etc. usually were named by their own tribe names, not by one common word.


Quote:
Definitely, Balts maintained relations with Finno-Ugric people, that's why they have a lot of N1c1.
Balts are actually a mix of Finno Ugric and I.E. But there are also one distinctive thing - a similarity with Gotland (see Legend of Videvutis, a myth of Sovijus in order to assess non-material culture). A very rare gene - LWb - or the Baltic genetic mark. One of the reason why the Baltic people are among highest people in the world are genetics.
"By testing the blood of 800 people, we came to the conclusion that Latvians have 5.9 percent of this gene concentration," says Denisova. "In Latgale, the percentage could be even higher because it is precisely there that people have retained the classic look of the ancient Balts: a large body, high forehead and large cheek bones."Scientists discovered that the rare gene is encountered equally in those Latvians and Lithuanians who have highest gene concentration. It has therefore been called the Baltic ethnic genetic mark." Link


By the way, thank for a nice discussion.
It is good that you started this discussions which is definitey worth of attention.
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Old February 25th, 2015, 12:51 PM   #1669
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Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
By the way, thank for a nice discussion.
It is good that you started this discussions which is definitey worth of attention.
I completely agree with you. Thank you for your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
Problem is - this theory is rather an exaggeration.
Exactly, that's what I think as well. There was no Balto-Slavic community or language. Phonological, lexical, morphosyntactic and accentological closeness of Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic languages was a result of an intensive language contact over many centuries (neighbouring cultures), rather than a common origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
Correct. German origin loan words came late, mainly after Northern Crusade. According to Kulakov (famous Russian archeologist from Kaliningrad Oblast), Viking Settlements in Prussia, or Lithuania (Curronian) - they did not succed with anything in LT territory, except for trade reasons or in Latvia - merged with local culture. Let's say, in XX century first side there were written thousands of local folk stories and myths which are more common to standartic old scandinavian myth line/storytelling tradition rather than with lithuania. Although, both Baltcs and Norherns Germans had a strong influence from Ugro Finnic (shamanistical features of Odin derived from Ugro Finn influence), Perkunas (in LT/LV Prussia) and Perkele (in Finland) is the same etc. This is part of non-material culture which might explain a lot of things.
Well, nothing to add here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
However, there are a lot of words in the blatic language like kunigas (a Duke or later on - a prest), pinigas (money) etc. which are (northern) german origin words that during the ages became common in all B. dialects.
(pinigas- asmoks (ziatela dialect))
Both words also existed in Proto-Slavic language...
kъnędzь (meaning prince, and later also a priest)
pěnędzь (meaning money); Polish: pieniądz

panningaz
Of unclear origin. Many regard the forms without the medial *-t- or *-d-* as the older ones on the basis of the fact that the Slavic and Lithuanian loanword do not show the reflex of a medial obstruent, which makes it difficult to connect with *pandan- (“pledge”) < Latin pondus (“weight”). Possibly a loanword from Latin words:
- panna (“pan”), with a semantic shift explained as penny being a "coin with a concave form" (De Vries/De Tollenaere), or
- pannus (“piece of cloth”) because cloth was often used as means of payment


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
Maybe you have heard about Aesti? The Balts is pretty new terms but it was necessary to distinguish us from purely Finno Ugric people. In turn, Aesti is rather a generic term that include both - the Baltic people and Estonians (or Baltic Finns).
Of course, I've heard about Aesti. As you can see Balts were not known as "Balts" in ancient history, the same as Slavs were not known under the name "Slavs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
Balts are actually a mix of Finno Ugric and I.E.
Correct.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 01:53 PM   #1670
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It's hard to add something what said Kontautas, but what about maps who shows some inhabited areas of some cultures.

Firstly areas which are shown by Archeologists is not borders of states as we understand now. So really possible that in some areas were mixed cultures, or some cultures changed others. There is now question about area of Balts who lived in area which marked blue line, other line shows only possibility.

What said Kontautas about Prussian inhabited places in GDL, there are many toponyms in Lithuania which are: Bartai, Barteliai, Subartonys, Kybartai, which can have something with Prussians, even in Prussia there are towns called (in German) Gro▀ Barthen and etc.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 02:41 PM   #1671
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It's so nice that we can find some consensus here.

Definitely, we need more aDNA samples, anthropological data, linguistic relationships studies, archeological excavations, etc. to be more certain where exactly Germanic (Scandinavia & West Germany? R1b dominant), Slavic (Central & Eastern Europe? R1a dominant) and Baltic (Northeastern Europe? N1c & R1a admixture) homelands were during Ancient times (especially during Bronze and Iron Ages). A conclusion cannot be based only on archeology, because driving Ferrari doesn't make you Italian.

-------------------

Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia - http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2015...rn-russia.html
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Old February 26th, 2015, 05:32 PM   #1672
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An example of Masurian inscription from the neglected cemetery in Paski Duże/Pasken, Masuria


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A KIEDY UMARE ZBUDZISZ DNIA OSTATNEGO, WICZIOGNIY TES RENKE I DO GROBU MOIEGO, NIECH USŁYSE GŁOS TWIOY OBUDZ MOIE CIAŁO, ZEBY SIĘ Z WIERNEMI DO NIEBA DOSTAŁO. AMEN
Cemetery in Wilkasy (Masuria) - to be renovated soon...




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Old February 26th, 2015, 06:51 PM   #1673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: soul
Proto-Slavic: *dūšÓ
Polish: dusza
Prussian: dusi
Lithuanian: siela

English: grey
Proto-Slavic: *sivъ
Polish: siwy
Prussian: sywan
Lithuanian: pilkas
Dusza/душа is from dychać/дышать. And you take only one Lithuanian variant. In Lithuanian, e.g. there is a word "dusti", that means "suffocate", "lose oxygen" or "breathe out". And Dausos is heaven — place of duszas. Of course, you do not know that, but make generalizations instead.

Again, why "pilkas", but why not "šyvas" (light grey)?
šyv|as, šyva šviesiai pilkas, žilas: Šyvas arklys. šyva kumelė. šyvumas.

There are too many synonyms, so to take only ONE of them and state "this is Lithuanian" is not correct. Look, there is a word "to look, to stare". It could be matyti, žvelgti, spoksoti, etc. But again, it could be žiūrėti (Russ. зреть) or similar to widzieć (compare to Lith. (iš)vysti). Увидел = išvydo. Please, keep in mind, that Slavic languages emerged from the Baltic languages about 100 generations ago or so (e.g. look in Toporov's works). Simply "Baltic family" were central dialects and later "Slavic" were at the edges. Because of the contacts with the other languages and peoples, during tje long time period Slavic languages emerged. Mostly, losing diphtongs (becoming less complex) and some other features like switch of letters or minimally changing galva>glowa/голова. It can be simply shown, again, using synonyms. Sometimes these are just the same like grybas>гриб/grzyb, ledas>лёд/lˇd, ežeras>jezioro/озеро or just minus diphtongs: žiema>zima/зима, liepa>lipa/липа. But mostly one needs use various synonyms to see the similarity. Like in case with "trees". There is drzewo/древо-дерево in Slavic languages and medis in Lithuanian. You may say: "It's totally different! No similarities even closely!". Then I answer you in such words: "But again, there is a word drevė, that means "hollow of tree", it only is more specific: not tree in general from the distance, outside, but tree when standing closely, near it". Dreve and drevo/drzewo are very differing?

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Old February 26th, 2015, 07:16 PM   #1674
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Etymologically it is even more close. Some more corrections.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: stink
Proto-Slavic: *smordъ
Polish: smrˇd
Prussian: smorde
Lithuanian: tvaikas
Tvai.. what? Tvaikas is poetic term, used only in books.
Smirdėti is to "stink" and "smarvė".

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: meat
Proto-Indo-European: *mēmso-
Proto-Slavic: *męso
Polish: mięso
Prussian: menso
Lithuanian: susitikti
Susi.. what????
Lithuanian is mėsa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: tilia (lime tree)
Proto-Slavic: *lipa
Polish: lipa
Prussian: lipe
Lithuanian: kalkės
Kalkės is Lime tree? Great. Because I thought it is liepa.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: head
Proto-Slavic: *golva
Polish: głowa
Prussian: glawo
Lithuanian: vadovas
Vadovas, sure. Not galva?

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: winter
Proto-Indo-European: *ǵʰeymeh₂
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *źeimāˀ
Polish: zima
Prussian: semo
Lithuanian: žiema
Here is the case with diphtongs. Baltic minus dipthongs and one gets Slavic.

Also semme, žemė, zeme, ziemia, земля...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: city
Proto-Slavic: *město
Polish: miasto
Prussian: mestan
Lithuanian: miestas
Also, grod ~ to Lith. gardas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: chair
Proto-Slavic: *krěslo
Polish: krzesło
Prussian: creslan
Lithuanian: kėdė
Sure, kėdė, but why not krėslas then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: gate
Proto-Slavic: *vorta
Polish: wrota
Prussian: warto
Lithuanian: vartai
Also, verti means "to open" in Lithuanian in one of its meanings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: pub
Proto-Slavic: *kъrčьma
Polish: karczma
Prussian: karczemo
Lithuanian: smuklė
Karčiama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
English: world
Proto-Slavic: *světъ
Polish: świat
Prussian: swetan
Lithuanian: pasaulis
Pasaulis = under sun, swetan ~ šviesa (this is what sun produces for these under her). Šventė is "holiday" (švesti - to celebrate), Latvian: Svetki and others.

Basically Baltic and Slavic are very close when one looks closely, examines.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 07:39 PM   #1675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post


[IMG]http://i58.************/2dgudyh.jpg[/IMG]
Lith. kelias = road.

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Old February 26th, 2015, 08:24 PM   #1676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
It's hard to add something what said Kontautas, but what about maps who shows some inhabited areas of some cultures.

Firstly areas which are shown by Archeologists is not borders of states as we understand now. So really possible that in some areas were mixed cultures, or some cultures changed others. There is now question about area of Balts who lived in area which marked blue line, other line shows only possibility.

What said Kontautas about Prussian inhabited places in GDL, there are many toponyms in Lithuania which are: Bartai, Barteliai, Subartonys, Kybartai, which can have something with Prussians, even in Prussia there are towns called (in German) Gro▀ Barthen and etc.
There were mass migrations of Baltic tribes in the 13th c. and on. In 1270-1290 most of the Semigalians moved to Northern Lithuania and Vilnius. In Gediminas letters, the king writes, that there are two churches in Vilnius and asks priests, who could speak German and... Semigalian language

First mass migration wave of Curonians from the North (Kurzeme) to the South (Klaipėda, Šilutė, Telšiai) in the XIII c. According to the anals, Livonians were afraid of depopulation of Kurzeme because of this mass exodus. This trend continued in the XVI-XIX c., when so called Kuršienieki (Latvianized already Curonias) migrated to the south. They settled from Palanga, on the Curonian spit (from their name the name of the spit was made), in Pamarys region (marios, marė Lith. is the same as ~morze, wzmorze, приморье) and the towns like Priekulė borrow their names from Kursienieki. Their seashore settlements reached Gdansk.

Then Bart tribe re-settled almost completely to South Lithuania and Grodno voblast in Belarus. Also to Aukštaitija around Vilnius, e.g. Bartkuškis.

There was mass migrations Galindians to Vilnius region mostly in the 13th c.

Re-settlement of some Sambians to Lithuania in the 13th c.

Gediminas re-settled huge amounts of Scalovians (skalviai) to the upper Nemunas area (Grodno area of Belarus) in the 14th c.

German Order took prisoners in Sudovia (or rather Dainavians from somewhere in Grdono-Druskininkai-Merkinė-Varėna region) and re-settled them in Sambian peninsula. Thus so called "Sudovian corner" emerged.

Some other Western Baltic tribes too partly moved or evacuated to Lithuania. It looks like some Sasnian tribes moved to Lithuania proper, Sudavia. Sasnis means hare in Prussian. Its coat of arms is also hare. Sasnava town is located not far from Kaunas. Sasnava tribe:
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasnava_(baltų_žemė)
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Old February 26th, 2015, 09:43 PM   #1677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Old Prussian vocabulary (13th century) -

English: millet
Proto-Slavic: *proso
Polish: proso
Prussian: prassan
Lithuanian: soros

English: soul
Proto-Slavic: *dūšÓ
Polish: dusza
Prussian: dusi
Lithuanian: siela

English: grey
Proto-Slavic: *sivъ
Polish: siwy
Prussian: sywan
Lithuanian: pilkas

English: stink
Proto-Slavic: *smordъ
Polish: smrˇd
Prussian: smorde
Lithuanian: tvaikas

English: moustache
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *vans
Polish: wąs
Prussian: wanso
Lithuanian: ūsai

English: mouth
Proto-Slavic: *usta
Polish: usta
Prussian: austo
Lithuanian: burna

English: meat
Proto-Indo-European: *mēmso-
Proto-Slavic: *męso
Polish: mięso
Prussian: menso
Lithuanian: susitikti

English: tilia (lime tree)
Proto-Slavic: *lipa
Polish: lipa
Prussian: lipe
Lithuanian: kalkės

English: head
Proto-Slavic: *golva
Polish: głowa
Prussian: glawo
Lithuanian: vadovas

English: winter
Proto-Indo-European: *ǵʰeymeh₂
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *źeimāˀ
Polish: zima
Prussian: semo
Lithuanian: žiema

English: city
Proto-Slavic: *město
Polish: miasto
Prussian: mestan
Lithuanian: miestas

English: chair
Proto-Slavic: *krěslo
Polish: krzesło
Prussian: creslan
Lithuanian: kėdė

English: gate
Proto-Slavic: *vorta
Polish: wrota
Prussian: warto
Lithuanian: vartai

English: chaff
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *pelua
Polish: plewa
Prussian: pelwo
Lithuanian: pelai

English: beer
Proto-Slavic: *pivo
Polish: piwo
Prussian: piwis
Lithuanian: alus

English: pub
Proto-Slavic: *kъrčьma
Polish: karczma
Prussian: karczemo
Lithuanian: smuklė

English: world
Proto-Slavic: *světъ
Polish: świat
Prussian: swetan
Lithuanian: pasaulis

Old Prussian vocabulary suggests close relations with Proto-Slavic and East Baltic languages. It also indicates very early contacts between Proto-Slavic, Old Prussian and East Baltic populations (basic words such as "winter"), perhaps Proto-Balto-Slavic community.

Some words were borrowed by Prussians in the Middle Ages, e.g. Nadele (Polish: Niedziela, English: Sunday) from Poles who adopted Christianity.
There is no Proto-Slavic language, as there are no Proto-Slavic archeological cultures before 6 century AD. They do not exist.
What historians call Slavic archeological cultures, only appear on the European continent, starting in 6-7 AD.
The ethnogenesis of Slavs started near the river od Dniepr, as the melting pot of Dniepr-Oka Baltic trabies, Cermanic tribes as Goth and others, and Indo-Iranian tribes.
The now dead Baltic language of Dniepr-Oka Balts is the base of all Slavic languages now. Also big influence came from Moscow Batls the tribe Golindi.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 10:04 PM   #1678
vrtur
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Samples of old Prussian Baltic language for example is all slavic.
Which means only one thing. Slavs using a south baltic language of dniepr-oka as their own.

Eg koyte poyte -if you want to drink
nykoyte penega doyte- do not want to give money
O mey mile swenthe paniko-Oh my dear holy fire
tho ne aw labonache thewelyse-You are no longer a good little comrade.Beigeite beygeyte peckolle-run devils


clynth cow
songos dog
Rickies lord
Wunda water
pewo beer
ruggis rye
dewus God
angol engel
maysta town
ludysz man
cayme village
camnet horse
Ny thueri thu
Dam thoi-give you
wabelcke-apple
pipelko-bird
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Old February 26th, 2015, 10:40 PM   #1679
20111423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vrtur View Post
Samples of old Prussian Baltic language for example is all slavic.
Which means only one thing. Slavs using a south baltic language of dniepr-oka as their own.

Eg koyte poyte -if you want to drink
nykoyte penega doyte- do not want to give money
O mey mile swenthe paniko-Oh my dear holy fire
tho ne aw labonache thewelyse-You are no longer a good little comrade.Beigeite beygeyte peckolle-run devils

clynth cow
songos dog
Rickies lord
Wunda water
pewo beer
ruggis rye
dewus God
angol engel
maysta town
ludysz man
cayme village
camnet horse
Ny thueri thu
Dam thoi-give you
wabelcke-apple
pipelko-bird
The most funny thing is that this so-called "Western"-Baltic ("all Slavic") sounds exactly like Lithuanian.

Mile-Mielas
Swenthe-Šventas (comp. Lith. sacred places = šventvietė; Švenčionys, Šventoji)
Dewus-Dievas
Ludys-Liaudis
Cayme-Kaimas
Palwe-Palvė
Mede-Medė
Ruggis-Rugys
Wunda-Vanduo
Penega-Piniga
Doyte-Duoti
Thewelyse-Tėvelis
Rickies-Rikis
Alkunis-Alkūnė
Ašvinan-Ašva (comp. to Lith. gods-horses Ašvinai)
Sunis-Šunis/šuo/šuva
Awis-Avis
Sirgis-Žirgas
Alu-Alus
Syrne-Žirnis
Engol-Angelas
Dumis-Dūmas
Caux, Curvis, Jaucus ~Karvė|Jautis
Kylo/Keile-Kielė
Apse/Espe-Epušė>Apušė>Pušis
Ackis-Akys

Keep in mind, this was written by foreigner, so some error while hearing the pronunciation.

http://www.prusistika.flf.vu.lt
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Old February 26th, 2015, 10:58 PM   #1680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vrtur View Post
Samples of old Prussian Baltic language for example is all slavic.
Which means only one thing. Slavs using a south baltic language of dniepr-oka as their own.

Eg koyte poyte -if you want to drink
nykoyte penega doyte- do not want to give money
O mey mile swenthe paniko-Oh my dear holy fire
tho ne aw labonache thewelyse-You are no longer a good little comrade.Beigeite beygeyte peckolle-run devils


clynth cow
songos dog
Rickies lord
Wunda water
pewo beer
ruggis rye
dewus God
angol engel
maysta town
ludysz man
cayme village
camnet horse
Ny thueri thu
Dam thoi-give you
wabelcke-apple
pipelko-bird

I am very sceptical about any reconstruction of a dead language, especially when it comes to baltic langauge. Baltic languages are too complicated in general. You can be 30 years old and still learn how to write, pronounce even a simple word correctly. Of course, now we have so called "commmon language", but still it is not an easy one. Let's say for example a word "Mėnulis" which stands for "a Moon". 50 years ago people - instead of Menulis - used to "Saulabrolis" which literally means "a brother of Saule". Same goes for, i.e. "a storm" -> Audra (now) or Švitras, Umaras (50 years ago). Indeed, Audra migh also meen "a stom in the sea", but you can express the similar meaning using purely curonian or finnic origin words "volis", "pulis"; In Lithuania is too complicated because of the fact that we were like a melting pool particularly during XIII-XV century. For eample, Vilnius culturally was in yotvingian cultural influence and it is now believed that yotvingians "millitary guys" or kariaunos (I supposed Depeched coul speak about in more broadly and present recent archological findings) brought their own culture - i e. a famous myth of Šventaragis on which we base "burial by fire of all Grand Dukes/Dukes in one political/cultural center - Vilnius". Yotvingians were fierce fanatics in all cases, sort of present day ISIS when it comes to their own culture (see armed resistance from 1944 in Southern Part of Lithuania)...

Another example - "to go" or "eiti" (in Lithuanian). We have 337 recorded synonyms for a word "to go". It is like a hell if you want to learn. So there might be numerous similar-to-slavic origin word to express "to go/going".

Regarding W.B or Prussian language or dialect, I would like to stress that there is a high posibility that in the western/southern part of former Prussia more slavic origin word existed due to more intense connection with (western) slavic tribes (maybe even on daily basis), while in eastern/north eastern - there were more common words or similarities with lithuanians, samogitians (samogitians absorbed semigalians and curonians), curonians (which were western balts). From Western Balts (curonians), or samogitians Prussians definitely received a huge amount of unique words.

So to find one answer - just too difficult. And probably - an impossible task.

--

As Rs-UK_PL said - DNA might help. But to my knowledge, at least Lithuanians do not have an established shared-information center of DNA information with Poland. We have it with LV, EST, Finland, Sweden, but not with Poland. A pity, though, because it would definitely interesing to see results from northern (former prussian), northern/eastern (Suwalki) territory nad so on.
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