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Old February 26th, 2015, 11:18 PM   #1681
Kontautas
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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
Dusza/душа is from dychać/дышать. And you take only one Lithuanian variant. In Lithuanian, e.g. there is a word "dusti", that means "suffocate", "lose oxygen" or "breathe out". And Dausos is heaven — place of duszas. Of course, you do not know that, but make generalizations instead.

Again, why "pilkas", but why not "šyvas" (light grey)?
šyv|as, šyva šviesiai pilkas, žilas: Šyvas arklys. šyva kumelė. šyvumas.
In fact, the vocab. is not very accurate, but let's agree that Dusza/Duse like Siela is more or less used in a totally different (and culturally different) context. While both words means the same - a Soil - but the meaning/usage is more associated with a christian understanding of post-mortal life, an alternative - Vėlė - with pagan believes. Like it or not, Vėlė still means the same and is used by people the that manner. So, we should not ignore the context. Like we celebrate only Vėlines (or Ilges), but not All Saint Day.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 11:44 PM   #1682
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In fact, the vocab. is not very accurate, but let's agree that Dusza/Duse like Siela is more or less used in a totally different (and culturally different) context. While both words means the same - a Soil - but the meaning/usage is more associated with a christian understanding of post-mortal life, an alternative - Vėlė - with pagan believes. Like it or not, Vėlė still means the same and is used by people the that manner. So, we should not ignore the context. Like we celebrate only Vėlines (or Ilges), but not All Saint Day.
But Dausos (Heaven of Ancient Lithuanians) is etymologically the same. It is linked with such Lithuanian verbs as dusti (used as synonym of kvepuoti = to breath), dūsauti (~alsuoti = to breath deeply), adjective dausingas (~ vėjuotas = windy, cool). Latvian dusa = calmness, sleep, deam. The synonim word of siela and dūšia is dvasia (breath, ghost, spirit, soul) is made of dvėsti (to die), dusti (to suffocate, to breath). Even there are some localities like Dusmenys (), lakes Dusia, Galadusys, river Dusmena, etc. So it is as old as vėlė/pamėklė.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 12:08 AM   #1683
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For eample, Vilnius culturally was in yotvingian cultural influence and it is now believed that yotvingians "millitary guys" or kariaunos (I supposed Depeched coul speak about in more broadly and present recent archological findings) brought their own culture - i e. a famous myth of Šventaragis on which we base "burial by fire of all Grand Dukes/Dukes in one political/cultural center - Vilnius".
Agree on Šventaragis myth, brought by "Yatvingians" (or rather Dainavians). Also, a lot of them with one of their leaders Skomantas (sometimes associated with Skalmantas; sometimes is named Gediminas father) during the times of king Traidenis moved to Vilnius (first stone foundations of Vilnius Lower castle are probably from that times). It is written, that later Skomantas moved to Balga (now Vesyoloye; south of what is now Kaliningrad) and became Christian. The grandson of Skomantas donated with land in Girdava in Bartia. His name is written as Dietrich Skomant in the sources. This Dietrich founded the village Dietrichsdorf (now Dzietrzychowo).

Then again, Semigalians moved to Vilnius area when their supreme leader Nemeisis evacuated to Lithuania. Then there was obvious Selonian influence to the North of Neris river (not sure of Vilnius itself, but it seems so according to the archaeology). For example, king Mindaugas wife was Selonian. Then part of Bartians moved to Vilnius area. To the south of Vilnius the whole region around Pelesa, Rodūnia (Radunj), Balatna (Voranava), near Šalčininkai, etc., was inhabited by them. Also, Samogitians and Samogitianized () Curonians moved to Vilnius from the XIV c. It seems they settled near the streets Žemaitijos, Kėdainių, Šiaulių in Vilnius (western side).
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Old February 27th, 2015, 07:01 AM   #1684
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Ašvieniai are divine twins in the Lithuanian mythology, identical to Latvian Dieva deli and direct counterparts of Vedic Ashvins. Both names derive from the same Proto-Indo-European root for the horse – *ek'w-. Old Lithuanian ašva and Sanskrit ashva mean "horse". Ašvieniai are represented as pulling a carriage of Saulė (the Sun) through the sky. Ašvieniai, depicted as žirgeliai or little horses, are common motifs on Lithuanian rooftops, placed for protection of the house. Similar motifs can also be found on beehives, harnesses, bed frames, and other household objects. Ašvieniai are related to Lithuanian Ūsinis and Latvian Ūsiņš (cf. Vedic Ushas), gods of horses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ašvieniai


Ašviniai, commonly called the little horses, on the rooftop of a house in Nida (Thomas Mann house)
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Old February 27th, 2015, 10:57 AM   #1685
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Simply "Baltic family" were central dialects and later "Slavic" were at the edges. Because of the contacts with the other languages and peoples, during tje long time period Slavic languages emerged.
Problem with your theory is that Slavic DNA is R1a dominant, while Baltic people are a mix of N1C and R1a. "If "Slavic" were the edges", then their DNA should be more mixed.

For example:
Poland - 57.5% R1a, 4% N
Lithuania - 42% N, 38% R1a

Also, according to your theory N1c was dominant in PIE people, but as we know based on recent research it was not (Haak et al. 2015). Proto-Baltic people emerged as a result of mixing Finno-Ugric N1c and Indo-European R1a.

Quote:
There is no Proto-Slavic language
vrtur (Depeched), thank you for creating a new account to spread your Pan-Baltic theories on SSC forum

Well, definitely there was Proto-Slavic language as all linguists suggest so.

Quote:
there are no Proto-Slavic archeological cultures before 6 century AD
The first East Slavic ruler was mentioned by Jordanes, Bozh lived in the 4th century, but according to you they "did not exist". He was the ruler of Antes, one of the tribes which descended from proto-Slavic Venethi.

Anthropological and genetic studies suggest that ancestors of Slavs (not Balts nor Germans) lived in Central and Eastern Europe. If they were Slavicised Balts, than it seems that Slavic language was much more appealing to them. Even the earliest references to Slavs in written sources from the 6-7th century describe them as very numerous, more numerous than Baltic people.

In the 850s Slavs were covering nearly half of Europe...


Nowadays, there are about 350 million Slavs and 5.8 million Balts. Among extinct Slavic and Baltic groups, we have e.g. Polabian Slavs and Old Prussians.

Quote:
What historians call Slavic archeological cultures, only appear on the European continent, starting in 6-7 AD.
And here lies the problem, because we know that biological ancestors of Slavs lived in Central and Eastern Europe in Ancient times. If Lusatian, Pomeranian, etc. cultures' people are direct ancestors of Slavs, why their cultures shouldn't be called proto-Slavic.

Quote:
Their seashore settlements reached Gdansk.
Can you name any of those settlements, as I did with Slavic settlements east of the Vistula river?
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Old February 27th, 2015, 01:25 PM   #1686
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Problem with your theory is that Slavic DNA is R1a dominant, while Baltic people are a mix of N1C and R1a. "If "Slavic" were the edges", then their DNA should be more mixed.

For example:
Poland - 57.5% R1a, 4% N
Lithuania - 42% N, 38% R1a

Also, according to your theory N1c was dominant in PIE people, but as we know based on recent research it was not.
These genes belong to the people, who lived 8000—18 000 ago (gene mutations happened then). What are you trying to judge by that?

How come "Slavic DNA" (your words) is widespread among North Siberian tribes and Pakistanis?




From this map my guess is, that in Afghanistan people speak mostly Polish, but I still doubt a little bit.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Well, definitely there was Proto-Slavic language as all linguists suggest so.
Meh, Proto-Slavic, doh. With the reconstructed words like vilkos (~vilkas) for the wolf. Slavic. That's great.

Wait, I took a book on so-called "Proto-Slavic" from my personal library. Among hundreds of mati (~motė), duktar (~duktė), it cites Gerulis about "Samogitian declensions with -ei, -i" to reconstruct "Proto-Slavic" declensions, Becenberg, who uses Lith. širdis to reconstruct sirdey, Wijk, who cites Latvian and Lithuanian to reconstruct "Proto-Slavic" intonations, Meine, who cites Lithuanian duoti, nešu, brolis, stalo, vilkas to reconstruct old forms, Fortunatov, who explains how diphtongs must be reconstructed (uses Lithuanian for that) and so on... Well, great Proto-Slavic, really.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The first East Slavic ruler was mentioned by Jordanes, Bozh lived in the 4th century, but according to your they "did not exist".
Did he mentioned "East Slavic"? "Slavic"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Anthropological and genetic studies suggest that ancestors of Slavs (not Balts or Germans) lived in Central and Eastern Europe.
Read some books on reconstructed so-called Proto-Slavic. I did. Most of the examples are made using Lithuanian, Latvian.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
If they were Slavicised Balts, then it seems that Slavic language was much more appealing to them.
Are you trying to say, that Slavic culture is superior, or what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
In the 850s Slavs were covering nearly half of Europe...
In the 500BC-500AD Balts were covering "nearly half of Europe".






Bonus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_...e_in_Pomerania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniepr_Balts

Not to mention the fact, that Dacian language is practically the same as Lithuanian or Latvian; hundreds of Lithuanian traditional songs "I was riding with my horse to Danube river", "Teka Dunojėlis" (diminutive of Danube) and the genetics.

Traditional song about Danube river.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Nowadays, there are about 350 million Slavs and 5.8 million Balts. Among extinct Slavic and Baltic groups, we have e.g. Polabian Slavs and Old Prussians.
Nowadays. But according to the scholars, situation was very different 1000—1500 years ago. For example Toporov in one of his interviews told he believes numbers of Slavs and Balts then were... Equal. 1:1. How come?

Eastern Slavs are formed on Baltic substratum. Belarussian tribes were these: Krivichi (continuum of Lith. and Latvian, tribes; substratum; name meaning krivis; kraujas). Recently new book was released by Russian scholar, who explores in more than 50 years. In his book he tells, that Smolensk Krivichi were... Balts.

Dregovichi (wiki: "The name of the tribe probably derives from the Old Ruthenian word дрегва or дрягва (drehva, or dryahva, which means "swamp") because the Dregovichs used to live in the marshlands" > this "Old Ruthenian", that is of course, accidentally "lost" in Eastern Slavic, is by chance the same like Lith. drėgva/drėgmė.

Western Russians: Radimichi (substratum of Dnepro Balts).
Here is quick copy-paste:
Quote:
Шейные гривны обычно не встречаются у волынян, полян, древлян и дреговичей, зато достаточно обычны в землях радимичей. Ближайшие и многочисленные аналогии эти украшения находят в древностях Латвии и Литвы. Балтские прототипы имеет также шейная гривна с заходящими многогранными концами из кургана близ села Луговец. Балтское происхождение имеют также звездообразные (лучистые) пряжки, костяные привески в виде уточек, бронзовые спиральки, змееголовые браслеты и другие предметы, найденные в радимичских курганах.
Baltic material culture, identical to that found in Latvia and Lithuania. And of course all accidentally the name Radimichi is meaningless in East Slavic, so how the scholars explain it? Again, accidentally by Lithuanian word "radimas".

Isn't it kinds weird — Slavic tribes having Baltic names and living on the territory with Baltic names of water bodies, with material culture identical to that of Lithuania and Latvia?

Then some strange formation of Vyatcihi (mix of Balts Galindians, Upper Oka Balts and Finnic, Iranian, Turkic tribes). Even to the east Mordvian tribe had some Baltic substratum. I know very little about them, but noticed some interesting things at a first glance. Their popular legend is about girl Litova, their god of morning is Uzhara (name from zara, compare to Lith. žara = pašvaistė, šviesa), they had sacred bees, living in vele (compare to Lith. avilys and vėlė) and so on. Simply, they were living close to Galindians and Oka Balts. Morvins live here (to the West of them Balts lived and some migrated to Mordva).


South Slavs mixed with other peoples, Western Slavs have long contacts with other peoples (Germanic, Celtic) too. That's the reason of the differences.

Also, hundreds of thousands if not millions of Balts during last centuries assimilated into Slavs. To mention a few: magnates families like Radvilos (nice palaces in Warszawa), Pacai, Čartoriskiai (remember their museum in Krakow), various politicians like Pilsudski (Bilius>Bilewicz) or first President from Telšiai, artists like Samogitians Vivulskis/Wiwulski, author of the famous monument in Krakow, writers like Norwid, descendent of magnate Radvilas clientele with obvious Baltic surname, et. al.

Another Pole.
Quote:
Stanisław Witkiewicz (8 May 1851 in Pašiaušė – 5 September 1915 in Lovran) was a Polish painter, architect,
Quote:
Witkiewicz was born in the Lithuanian village of Pašiaušė in Samogitia
Quote:
Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz (24 February 1885 – 18 September 1939), commonly known as "Witkacy", was a Polish poet
Quote:
Born in Warsaw, Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz was a son of the painter, architect and an art critic Stanisław Witkiewicz. His mother was Maria Pietrzkiewicz Witkiewiczowa. Both of his parents were born in the Samogitian region of Lithuania.
Typical story line: both parents Samogitian: son Pole.
Samogitian goes to Warszawa to become politician, writer, architect and become Pole.

Okay, this one is 50/50, according to the inscription in Krakow cemetery


Father Vytautas, but daughter and son Polish (another daughter and son — Lithuanians)


Surname is Lith., born in Lentvaris.


Father Vytautas, but one daughter Polish.


The same with various Prussians, only we know very little about this, but...
There is a neighborhood in Warszawa. Guess what?
Quote:
Pierwotna nazwa „Mokotowo” pochodzi prawdopodobnie od imienia pruskiego właściciela wsi – Mokoto lub Mokot – i po raz pierwszy pojawia się w dokumentach z 1367.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
And here lies the problem, because we know that biological ancestors of Slavs lived in Central and Eastern Europe in Ancient times.
Yeah, right, only these ancestors had material culture similar to Balts and spoke identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Can you name any of those settlements, as I did with Slavic settlements east of the Vistula river?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki

Anyway, this is offtopic here. Pardon.

Last edited by 20111423; February 27th, 2015 at 01:30 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 02:25 PM   #1687
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I thought that we might have a nice discussion here, but Lithuanian nationalists spreading Pan-Baltic theories had to put their two cents worth in.

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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
How come "Slavic DNA" (your words) is widespread among North Siberian tribes and Pakistanis?
Proto-Slavic R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458, which were formed 5000 ybp are not present in Asia. European R1a is NOT ancestral to Asian R1a.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/

R1a-M458 (ancestral to many West Slavs)


Quote:
Did he mentioned "East Slavic"? "Slavic"?
Quote:
ab ortu Vistulae fluminis per inmensa spatia Venetharum natio populosa consedit, quorum nomina licet nunc per varias familias et loca mutentur, principaliter tamen Sclaveni et Antes nominantur
"at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanses of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called the Sclaveni and Antes"

Jordanes described location of Antes as being ("qua Ponticum mare curvatur, a Danastro extenduntur usque ad Danaprum, quae flumina multis mansionibus ab invicem absunt") in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days’ journey apart.

Sclaveni lived ("a civitate Novietunense et laco qui appellatur Mursiano usque ad Danastrum et in boream Viscla tenus commorantur") from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the [Vistula?].

Quote:
Nam hi, ut in initio expositionis vel catalogo gentium dicere coepimus, ab una stirpe exorti, tria nunc nomina ediderunt, id est Venethi, Antes, Sclaveni
"These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots of one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni."

Proto-Slavic Venethi were mentioned in a few written sources since the 1st century AD.

The Slavs (Sclaveni) apparently lived far to the west already at first mention under this name. According to Procopius of Caesarea, who noted this under year 512, Germanic Heruli, after being defeated by the Lombards (ca. 505 - 508), migrated from their homeland at the middle Danube river (A) to the land of the Warini at the Warnow river (B). During that migration, according to Procopius, the Heruli were travelling "in turn through all lands of the Sclaveni and vast wildernesses". This indicates, that already in the early 500s Slavs lived in vast areas between (A) and (B) - see the map below.



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Me neither
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Old February 27th, 2015, 03:00 PM   #1688
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I thought that we might have a nice discussion here, but Lithuanian nationalists spreading Pan-Baltic theories had to put their two cents worth in.
Do not judge about others by the behavior of Poles, please.


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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Proto-Slavic R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458, which were formed 5000 ybp are not present in Asia.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/
Yes, right Proto-Slavic gene. I guess Bulgarians had this distinctive exclusively Slavic gene too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
R1a-M458 (ancestral to many West Slavs)
What about various migrations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
Quote:
The Zarubintsy culture was influenced by the La Tčne culture and the nomads of the steppes (the Scythians and the Sarmatians). The Scythian and Sarmatian influence is evident, especially in pottery, weaponry and domestic and personal objects. From the 3rd century and onwards, the culture was connected by the Goths and became part of the Chernyakhov culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milograd_culture
This culture was important for formation of Sudovians/Yatvingians/Poleksens/Dainavians, because some migrants came from there into Southern Baltic lands. Thus they separated from "Eastern" Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians and other, who spoke one language then).


The expansion of the Germanic tribes 750 BC – AD 1 (after thePenguin Atlas of World History 1988)


The expansion of the Germanic tribes AD 1;
Red: Oksywie culture,
then early Wielbark culture
Blue: Jastorf culture
(light: expansion, purple: repressed)
Yellow: Przeworsk culture (orange: repressed)
Pink, orange, purple: expansion of Wielbark culture (2nd century AD)

I guess they all were exclusively "Proto-Slavic" with distinct "Slavic gene"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
"at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanses of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called the Sclaveni and Antes"
So? Can't see where the author calls them Slavic or write how their language sounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Jordanes described location of Antes as being ("qua Ponticum mare curvatur, a Danastro extenduntur usque ad Danaprum, quae flumina multis mansionibus ab invicem absunt") in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days’ journey apart.

Sclaveni lived ("a civitate Novietunense et laco qui appellatur Mursiano usque ad Danastrum et in boream Viscla tenus commorantur") from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the [Vistula?].
Again, Sclaveni is Sclaveni. How do you know these were "Slavic"? How their language sounded?

BTW, in some sources, Baltic tribe Skalvians were too called Sclaveni. Were they Slavic?

You told something about genes. Here is an article (look Bulgaria, Romania, etc.):


Read here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...amp-genes.html

And here is reconstructed Dacian language. Take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_Dacian_words
I guess various giria, dūmas, klevas, ramus, sausas,... sound very Slavic.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
"These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots of one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni."

The Slavs apparently lived far to the west already at first mention / first contact. According to Procopius of Caesarea, who noted this under year 512, Germanic Heruli, after being defeated by the Lombards (ca. 505 - 508), migrated from their homeland at the middle Danube river (A) to the land of the Warini at the Warnow river (B). During that migration, according to Procopius, the Heruli were travelling "in turn through all lands of the Sclaveni and vast wildernesses". This indicates, that already in the early 500s Slavs lived in vast areas between (A) and (B) - see the map below.

Veneti, Antes,... Are there any Antes in the middle ages? What was their language like?

VIII—IX c. Belarussians were Antes or Sclavenes?

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Old February 27th, 2015, 03:40 PM   #1689
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I guess Bulgarians had this distinctive exclusively Slavic gene too?
Well, yes and no. They are a mix of many different tribes (Turkic, Slavic and autochthonous people).

Slavic culture, language expansion, and some migrations into the Balkans are very well known from the written sources. There are no written records that Slavs expanded westward though.

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What about various migrations?
Migrations should've been confirmed by anthropology and archaeogenetic research. So far, all the studies oppose that any migrations into Central Europe during Ancient times and early Middle Ages have happened.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #1690
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There is this polish saying: truth is like ass, everyone has his own. So in my opinion we should get back to topic, and talk about beautiful sites in former east prussia.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 04:54 PM   #1691
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My Grandfather was Polish yet he was a Prussian Baron He fought in the Polish Air Force in England and settled here (England) after the war.
What do you think the chances are of seeing some more pictures in this thread?
Less arguing about where Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, Russians, Prussians & Slavs are from and more architectural discussion?
Wouldn't this thread be much better if everybody put as much effort into architecture as they do into anthropology?

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Old February 27th, 2015, 05:13 PM   #1692
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RS_UK-PL you're discussing with another incarnation of infamous vilnius guide or whatever his nicks were. Don't waste your time, it's worthless.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 05:26 PM   #1693
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Slavic culture, language expansion, and some migrations into the Balkans are very well known from the written sources. There are no written records that Slavs expanded westward though.
Bulgars (now Slavic speaking people)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutrigurs

The homeland of Slavs before the V c. is practically unknown.
And all of the sudden millions of Slavs appeared out of the blue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniepr_Balts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milograd_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli

III-V c. first Slavic tribes appear from nowhere


Slavic already Kiev culture (Baltic according to Sedov) formed from Dnieper Balts and Budins (Yuchnovo culture, etc.; more to the East - Dyakovo culture with Baltic elements), Proto-Prague culture from Goths, Sarmatians and Mix with Balts (Sedov)...

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Migrations should've been confirmed by anthropology and archaeogenetic research. So far, all the studies oppose that any migrations into Central Europe during Ancient times and early Middle Ages have happened.


Anyway, agree, that we must stop this offtopic and enjoy the pictures instead.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 05:32 PM   #1694
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The Penkovka culture (so called in its Ukrainian part) or Ipotesti-Candesti culture (in Romania) is an archaeological culture Ukraine spanning Moldova and reaching into Romania. Its western boundary is usually taken to at the middle Prut and Dniester rivers, where contact with the Korchak culture occurs.

Its bearers are commonly identified as the Antes people of 6th-century Byzantine historiography.

The core of the culture seems to be in Left-bank Ukraine, especially along the Sula, Seim, Psel, Donets and Oril rivers, but its territory extends to Right-bank Ukraine, and Penkovka pottery is also found in eastern and southern Romania, where it co-exists with wheel-made pottery of late Roman derivation; and is referred to as the Ipotesti-Candesti culture by Romanian archaeologists.Penkovka-type pottery has even been found in Byzantine forts in the north-eastern Balkans."Nomadic" style wheel-made pottery (called Pastyrske or Saltovo ware) also occurs in the Ukrainian Penkovka sites as well as in the lower Danube and Bulgaria, but is most commonly found within the Saltovo-Mayaki culture, associated with Bulgars, Khazars and Alans
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Old February 27th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #1695
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Researcher of the The Penkovka culture professor Sedov came to the conclusion that Antes tribal union is a mixture or ethno genesis of south Baltic tribes, Germanic tribes and indo-Iranians. This tribal group then came out what is now Ukraine and moved to Baltic sea, to became as three Slavic tribal groups as polabian slavs. The language they are speaking is the baltic version of the south baltic dnepr-oka-moskow batls with plenty of gothic borrowed words.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #1696
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The language of south balts as dnepr-oka-moskow is lost. The only thing what is left are toponyms and hydroniums. Plenty of those could be found in the Moscow region. All the rivers have baltic names.

1. Абалейка, 2. Ажава, 3. Бакея, 4. Белейка, 5. Болва, 6. Болонка 1, 7. Болонка 2, 8. Брехота, 9. Брукель, 10. Бутынка, 11. Важаночка, 12. Ведома, 13. Вейна, 14. Велья, 15. Веля 1, 16. Веля 2, 17. Вепрейка, 18. Верешня, 19. Верзинка, 20. Вилейка 1, 21. Вилейка 2, 22. Вилия, 23. Война, 24. Волста, 25. Ворсинка, 26. Воря 1, 27. Воря 2, 28. Воря 3, 29. Высота, 30. Гжать, 31. Гжелка, 32. Голедянка, 33. Гордота, 34. Дерельня, 35. Держа, 36. Дерзна, 37. Дидейка, 38. Дорка, 39. Дугна, 40. Дырочная, 41. Жежмянка, 42. Желанейка, 43. Жерелка, 44. Жеровка, 45. Жертка, 46. Жижала, 47. Жижмель, 48. Жукопа, 49. Зерия, 50. Зерна 1, 51. Зерна 2, 52. Иночь 1, 53. Иночь 2, 54. Искона, 55. Истра 1, 56. Истра 2, 57. Касня, 58. Кзелка, 59. Клеткина, 60. Корижа, 61. Криста, 62. Лама, 63. Лашутка, 64. Ланка, 65. Леменка, 66. Литожицы, 67. Лобня, 69. Лобь, 70. Локна 1, 71. Локна 2, 72. Локна 3, 73. Локнаша, 74. Локнош, 75. Лопасня, 76. Лопасть Большая, 77. Лосьмина, 78. Лосьминка, 79. Лохня, 80. Лоша, 81. Лужа, 82. Лупенка, 83. Лусенка 1, 84. Лусенка 2, 85. Лусица, 86. Лусянка, 87. Медынка 1, 88. Медынка 2, 89. Мельчевка, 90. Метиха, 91. Можайка, 92. Мозовка, 93. Нара, 94. Непрета, 95. Нерошка, 96. Оболонка, 97. Оболонь, 98. Ожженка, 99. Ока, 100. Оканица, 101. Олеля, 102. Оложа, 103. Ольсафка, 104. Ольшанка 1, 105. Ольшанка 2, 106. Опочинка, 107. Осьмина, 108. Отра, 109. Панива, 110. Педня 1, 111. Педня 2, 112. Педня 3, 113. Перинка, 114. Полея, 115. Неполоть, 116. Поня, 117. Посинейка, 118. Радынка, 119. Ремижа, 120. Ремислёк, 121. Руза, 122. Рукапа, 123. Русса, 124. Савиха, 125. Салик, 126. Салита, 127. Сатовка, 128. Сежа, 129. Сестра 1, 130. Сестра 2, 131. Сестра Малая, 132. Сетка, 133. Сетовка, 134. Сетунь 1, 135. Сетунь 2, 136. Сетунька, 137. Силинка, 138. Сильна, 139. Синея, 140. Синявка, 141. Скоба, 142. Скобра, 143. Сколба, 144. Скородайка, 145. Смередка, 146. Сморжинка, 147. Солка, 148. Солинка, 149. Солотня, 150 Сомина, 151. Струпенка, 152. Субита, 153. Тар****************************************, 154. Таруса 1, 155. Таруса 2, 156. Толжа, 157. Трасна, 158. Трасенка, 159. Тросня, 160. Турейка 1, 161. Турейка 2, 162. Турища, 163. Тюльковка, 164. Угра, 165. Ужепа, 166. Улупинка, 167. Усия, 168. Устьвержа, 169. Уча, 170. Ушанка, 171. Цидель, 172. Цна, 173. Чанки, 174. Чаруса, 175. Чачинка, 176. Чичата, 177. Шана, 178. Шанка, 179. Шанкина, 180. Шатуха.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 06:20 PM   #1697
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If any one knows about the Russian ethimology vocabulary by Fasmer?
He could not find any proto-slavic origns in the words in the Russian language. They are all mostley baltic or germanic. If you take any Birch bark manuscripts from Novgorod region 10-13 century, you will not find any words that could not be related to baltic origin or german. Very interesting is Zvenigorod manuscrit from near Moskow, were balitc language of Golindi was still spoken. That language became dead only around 16 century.

***V govieno ko knyazhnicyu dae desato kojnu lodienou povdalo govno ida na sou do popa(priest), a dae loucz oli ne vodasi to a knyaza poemo otroko prizh priedu a vo bole ty no vid***

Do you see here any familiar words? This is a language, which was spoken in 12 century Moscow.

Translation in english.

**From goveny widow to Nezhnicu. Give 60 koinu(money) for the boat. Goven said so before his death to his priest and he wrote. Give it to Luke If you will not give, I will take boys from konung and will come with them and it will cost you even more.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 08:59 PM   #1698
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There is this polish saying: truth is like ass, everyone has his own. So in my opinion we should get back to topic, and talk about beautiful sites in former east prussia.
Excellent idea.

Here's one of beautiful residential districts in Olsztyn (a.k.a. Allenstein), the capital of Polnische Ostpreussen



And now something more optimistic. Olsztyn is repairing mistakes of the past. The trams are coming back!

Green - lines from 1907-65 period. Purple - the line u/c, which will connect railway station with academic campus of Uniwersytet Warmińsko-Mazurski (Kortowo) and the largest residential area (Jaroty/Nagórki/Pieczewo)

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Old February 27th, 2015, 09:50 PM   #1699
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Excellent idea.

Here's one of beautiful residential districts in Olsztyn (a.k.a. Allenstein), the capital of Polnische Ostpreussen


Why does it look like Chomiczówka in Warsaw
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Old February 28th, 2015, 02:14 PM   #1700
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Why does it look like Chomiczówka in Warsaw
Probably most of residential districts from Vladivostok to Elbe look alike
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