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Old February 28th, 2015, 03:19 PM   #1701
Kontautas
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Common, guys, those theories about proto-baltic/proto-slavic or whatever are so passe that doesn't make sense to discuss about relatively arguable issues. Scholars are breaking their spears even now trying to figure out all that mess with langauges, so we can only agree on one or another theory and base out opinion on it. Also, let's not invent a wheel. Topics about the language in such a mixed place like former Prussia are always complicated.
I would rather suggest to talk about DNA rand recent findings and/or archeology (material/non-material culture) of this region rather than languages.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 12:03 PM   #1702
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Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
those theories about proto-baltic/proto-slavic or whatever are so passe that doesn't make sense to discuss about relatively arguable issues. Scholars are breaking their spears even now trying to figure out all that mess with langauges, so we can only agree on one or another theory and base out opinion on it.
There are many totally different theories on this topic. Some linguists suggest that Proto-Balto-Slavic community existed, other believe that Proto-Slavs and Proto-Balts lived very close to each other, that's why those groups of languages share so many similarities.



Those who support Proto-Balto-Slavic language did not reach agreement when the separation of Slavic and Baltic took place (proposed dates range from ca. 1500 BCE to ca. 500 BCE).

Atkinson - 1400 BCE
Novotná & Blažek - 1400–1340 BCE
Sergei Starostin - 1210 BCE
Chang - 600 BCE

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Originally Posted by Kontautas View Post
I would rather suggest to talk about DNA rand recent findings and/or archeology (material/non-material culture) of this region rather than languages.
I agree.

See the results of recent DNA studies from the ethnocultural regions that were bordering East Prussia (Kurpie, Kashubia/Kaszuby, Kociewie and Suwalki) below. It seems that Slavic people in these regions didn't mingle much with Baltic people (N ranging from 1.9% to 11%).



Kurpie


Suwalki (up to ca.25%* of Baltic origin, the highest percentage of N in Poland)


*Based on assumption that Balts are 50-50 N and R1a, there are 22% people of Baltic origin in Suwalki according to this study.

Kashubia


Kociewie
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Old March 1st, 2015, 07:15 PM   #1703
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post


Those who support Proto-Balto-Slavic language did not reach agreement when the separation of Slavic and Baltic took place (proposed dates range from ca. 1500 BCE to ca. 500 BCE).

Atkinson - 1400 BCE
Novotná & Blažek - 1400–1340 BCE
Sergei Starostin - 1210 BCE
Chang - 600 BCE
These studies are old. Some of these are more that 100 years old. The latest researches present the idea, that Slavs appeared from border Balts (after the contacts with other language groups like Germanic, Celtic, Sarmatian). Generally, Slavic languages are simplified and/or slightly changed versions of Baltic like with the diphtongs, g>zh, sh>s, zh>z, etc.: kiaunė>kuna, plaukti>plavatj>pływać, gausti (gaudesys)>gudetj, liepa>lipa, žiema>zima, mielas>mily, kreivas> krziwy>krivoy, kraujas> krzew>krovj, lankas>luk, lieti> litj, diena>dzień>dzenj, gailėti>zheletj>żal, gyvas>żywy, žvėris>zwierz, žinoti>znatj, žvaigždė>zvezda>gwiazda, žiovauti>ziewać beržas>beryoza, širdis>serdce>serce...

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Suwalki (up to ca.25% of Baltic origin, the highest percentage of N in Poland)
Pointless. A lot of Belarussians and Ukrainians, or Belarussian, Ukrainian Poles came to Suwalki region after the war during the changes of the borders. And the other way: many Lithuanians were deported in 1920 (esp. in Seiny; where all the Lithuanian clergy were deported from Seiny seminary, where they constituted the majority and many local inhabitants, who were called "not loyal", with hatred called "litwomaniacs", "pagans"), others moved by their own will to Lithuania. During German occupation (1941-1944), again many Lithuanians were deported to Lithuania. After the war they were not allowed to come back and settled in Lithuania. Thus probably half of the population changed during the last 100 years alone.


Speaking about Prussian languagES, according to the Swadesh list, Slavic languages are between 50 and 57% with Lithuanian and Prussian is 66% identical with Lithuanian (2/3 of the most common words were THE SAME, others were synonyms).
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Old March 1st, 2015, 07:58 PM   #1704
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Quote:
These studies are old
Atkinson's publication is from 2003, Novotná & Blažek's from 2007, Starostin's from 1994 and Chang's from February 2015 (very outdated - link)...

Linguistics...


DNA...
N-VL29 formed 4100 ybp (Finno-Ugric), found in Russia (incl. Volga-Ural), the Baltic, Sweden and Hungary
N-L550 formed 3300 ybp (Proto-Baltic), throughout the Baltic and North Slavic countries, and in places settled by the Vikings
L1025 formed 2700 ybp (Baltic), found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia

Result...

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Old March 1st, 2015, 09:21 PM   #1705
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VIDEO http://www.lrt.lt/mediateka/irasas/26895

not so old either
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 12:54 AM   #1706
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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
Pointless. A lot of Belarussians and Ukrainians, or Belarussian, Ukrainian Poles came to Suwalki region after the war during the changes of the borders.
20111423, Perkūnas, Konstantinas širvydas, Vilniusguide, Alytus, žemėpatis, miestas etc. You must be confusing Suwałki region with western/southern part of East Prussia, now the Polish Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship. In 1950 the Olsztyn Voivodeship counted 689,000 inhabitants, 22.6% of them coming from areas annexed by the Soviet Union ( mostly expelled Poles from Lithuanian SSR), 10% Ukrainians (Operation Vistula), and 18.5% of them pre-war inhabitants.

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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
And the other way: many Lithuanians were deported in 1920 (esp. in Seiny; where all the Lithuanian clergy were deported from Seiny seminary, where they constituted the majority and many local inhabitants, who were called "not loyal", with hatred called "litwomaniacs", "pagans"), others moved by their own will to Lithuania.
and vice versa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_i...dent_Lithuania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanization

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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
During German occupation (1941-1944), again many Lithuanians were deported to Lithuania. After the war they were not allowed to come back and settled in Lithuania. Thus probably half of the population changed during the last 100 years alone.
After WW II Polish (commie) authorities in Suwałki region deported only:

- those who had registered for repatriation to USSR
- defectors from USSR
- Lithuanian collaborators with Nazi Germany
+
Circa 30 Polish-Lithuanian families were resettled to Western Pomerania.

EOT

Piski Bieg Narciarski/Johannisburg Skilanglauf











source:
http://jablon-resort.pl/
http://sport.wm.pl/188704,I-Piski-Bi...#axzz3TAzE96Iq
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 03:06 AM   #1707
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Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
20111423, Perkūnas, Konstantinas širvydas, Vilniusguide, Alytus, žemėpatis, miestas etc.
Andajas, Mažvydas, Žvėrūna, Klaipėda in your pocket, TurboD, Kaunas0509, kaukas, Pablonis, kaimas, Lokys, Apuokas, žaltys, gluodenas, laukas, miškas, etc.

Have you watched to much of Russian state owned TV (have read to much Gazeta Wyborcza articles) or what's wrong with you?
Don't watch (read) too much of it before sleep.

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Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
You must be confusing Suwałki region with western/southern part of East Prussia, now the Polish Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship. In 1950 the Olsztyn Voivodeship counted 689,000 inhabitants, 22.6% of them coming from areas annexed by the Soviet Union ( mostly expelled Poles from Lithuanian SSR), 10% Ukrainians (Operation Vistula), and 18.5% of them pre-war inhabitants.
No, a lot of people came to Suwalki region too. They usually settled in Lith. houses who were deported from Suwalki triangle by Germans, BTW. Also Old Believers and other groups were too deported during that time.

Suwalki region itself could be associated with Old Prussians, btw. It was inhabited by Jotvingiai tribe, who spoke very similar to both Prussian and Lithuanian. Jotvingian language was intermediate between the two and they could understand both (Lithuanian and Prussian were mutually intelligible for them). These mostly joined Lithuanians, but small groups were assimilated by Belarussians in Grodno region, Poles near Suwalki, Bialystok.

Western part of the tribe was firstly asimilted with Lithuanians, but later by Germans (in the late 19th c.) in the borderlands between Šakiai, Kybartai and Gumbinnen region. These were called Sudavians, who were one of clans of Jotvingiai group of tribes.

Nadruvians with their own language — very close to Lithuanian and that of Jotvingiai, lived to the West. As said, they firstly merged with Lithuanians, adopted kindred Lithuanian language and were Germanized only in the late 19th c. These people, with whom they assimilated, were actually not Germans, but mostly people from Austria, Holland, some French Huguenots. The author of Lithuanian anthem Vincas Kudirka is actually of French origin (Couderc). His grandparents spoke French (they moved to Gumbinnen region from France), later German. He himself learned Lithuanian at his 30s.

The region where Lithuanian professional literature was born. The most famous Lithuanian poem (early 18th c.) depicts the life of Lithuanians of this region. So, Nadruvians, Sudavians completely became Lithuanians by then. Donelaitis calls this region both "Lithuania" and "Prussia" and the people, who spoke Lith. — both Lithuanians (Lietuvininkai) and Prussians.

More to the South Polexen tribe lived (Lith. translation of their name probably Palaukėnai/Palankėnai) who were fully assimilated by Masovians in the late middle ages.

What vice-versa? Where? What are you talking about? These articles were written using Gazeta Wyborcza articles and are worth less than Belarussian kopeyka. And there were no forceful expulsions from Lithuania in the 1920s, contrary to Suwalki and Vilnius regions. Lots of Lithuanians were deported from Suwalki region. From Vilnius region too after the occupation in the early 1920s in Russian-Crimea-style and staged Crimea-style referendum.

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Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
After WW II Polish (commie) authorities in Suwałki region deported only:

- those who had registered for repatriation to USSR
- defectors from USSR
- Lithuanian collaborators with Nazi Germany
+
Circa 30 Polish-Lithuanian families were resettled to Western Pomerania.
Again, Lithuanians were deported by Germans and commies didn't let them come back to those villages in Suwalki region they lived. There is even "Society of Lithuanian deportees from Suwalki region" (who were not allowed to return). Here are contacts. Telephone them if you want to know more:
http://www.visalietuva.lt/imone/suva...rasto-draugija


Interwar Klaipėda/Memel

Kurt Naumann, Memel

Statue to Simon Dach — German poet of Lithuanian descent (worked as translator from Lithuanian in the Court).
Statue was torn down by the commies, but luckily restored in the 1990s with the support of Germans.

By the way, the famous Johannes kirche will be rebuilt in Klaipėda.

Original church was modeled by the famous Friedrich August Stüler.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 12:11 PM   #1708
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See the results of recent DNA studies from the ethnocultural regions that were bordering East Prussia (Kurpie, Kashubia/Kaszuby, Kociewie and Suwalki) below. It seems that Slavic people in these regions didn't mingle much with Baltic people (N ranging from 1.9% to 11%).

And DNA results from regions bordering East Prussia to the east (Kasperaviciute et al. 2004)...


As we can see in this study, these regions have mostly Baltic frequencies (roughly 50-50 N and R1a). The only region with significant Slavic admixture is South aukštaičiai (61.8% R1a and only 29.4% N, see: Poles in Lithuania). Estonia was historically more N dominant (Finno-Ugric), high frequency of R1a is a result of East Slavic colonisation (see: Russians in Estonia).


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Old March 2nd, 2015, 02:29 PM   #1709
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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
Have you watched to much of Russian state owned TV (have read to much Gazeta Wyborcza articles) or what's wrong with you?
Don't watch (read) too much of it before sleep.
Russian state owned Judeo-Masonic Polish media - that's classic

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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post
From Vilnius region too after the occupation in the early 1920s in Russian-Crimea-style and staged Crimea-style referendum.
Tell me more about staged Klaipėda/Memel Revolt.

Okartowo/Eckersberg, Pisz County, Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship


zamki.pl


zamki.pl


author: Mieczysław Kalski


gazeta.mazury.pl


gazeta.mazury.pl


gazeta.mazury.pl


gazeta.pl


gazeta.mazury.pl


gazeta.mazury.pl


www.polskaniezwykla.pl


zamki.pl
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 02:46 PM   #1710
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Too much new info but nice to hear.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 03:37 PM   #1711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
Russian state owned Judeo-Masonic Polish media - that's classic
Agree. Notice that sign — VV


Now Poland officially Iluminati confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
Tell me more about staged Klaipėda/Memel Revolt.
We had good teachers — the Poles.

Anyway, we should not dwell on the past and be friends!


Šilutė. Heidekrug/Šilokarčema nowadays. Here Hermann Sudermann was born.

Monument to this German writer.
http://baltic360.lt/lt/lt/miestas360...mann_paminklas

Evangelical church in Šilutė — probably the most elaborate Protestant church in Lithuania
http://baltic360.lt/lt/lt/miestas360...eliku_baznycia

Palace of Hugo Scheu (German and Lithuanian philantrope, cultural figure, who established of the first museum in the Minor Lithuania region; explored local folklore of the region; publisher)
http://baltic360.lt/lt/lt/miestas360...te_hugo_dvaras

Monument to this famous person was erected recently


Driving in the Old town of Šilutė.
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Old March 4th, 2015, 09:39 PM   #1712
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Old March 6th, 2015, 12:27 AM   #1713
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It's a shame that they still haven't reconstructed the Kneiphof and the Koenigberger Schloss..... should've been done a long time ago, just like they reconstructed that Our Saviour Cathedral in Moscow after they blew it up in the 1930s, or like many other churches across Russia.....
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Old March 6th, 2015, 02:20 AM   #1714
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It's a shame that they still haven't reconstructed the Kneiphof and the Koenigberger Schloss..... should've been done a long time ago, just like they reconstructed that Our Saviour Cathedral in Moscow after they blew it up in the 1930s, or like many other churches across Russia.....
Worry not. Most gems like that were spared. And if by now even a "samovar" like the Saviour Cathedral was reconstructed, what's left are probably giant, dehumanizing structures, failed styles, utter kitch or tackyness.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:02 AM   #1715
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Originally Posted by 20111423 View Post

By the way, the famous Johannes kirche will be rebuilt in Klaipėda.

Original church was modeled by the famous Friedrich August Stüler.
Very good.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 12:19 PM   #1716
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The renovation project (Kaliningrad/Калининград)







Source

Altes Haus (Amalienau Museum) in Kaliningrad/Калининград



Source
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Old March 6th, 2015, 12:30 PM   #1717
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Palace in Waplewo Wielkie is being renovated (posts #1557, #1561)

Source 1, 2

The 75th anniversary of mass executions in Hohenbruch, German concentration camp near Lauknen (today's Gromowo/Громово in Kaliningrad Oblast)



Source
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Old March 7th, 2015, 03:13 PM   #1718
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And DNA results from regions bordering East Prussia to the east (Kasperaviciute et al. 2004)...


As we can see in this study, these regions have mostly Baltic frequencies (roughly 50-50 N and R1a). The only region with significant Slavic admixture is South aukštaičiai (61.8% R1a and only 29.4% N, see: Poles in Lithuania). Estonia was historically more N dominant (Finno-Ugric), high frequency of R1a is a result of East Slavic colonisation (see: Russians in Estonia).

__________


Quote:
Archaeological findings and historical records indicate frequent migrations and exchange of genetic material between populations in the Baltic Sea area. However, there have so far been very few attempts to trace migrations in this area using genetic markers. We have studied the Baltic populations with respect to exceptional variations in the frequencies of the Landsteiner-Wiener (LW) blood group. The frequency of the uncommon LWb gene was high in the Balts, around 6% among Latvians and Lithuanians, very low among the other western Europeans (0-0.1%) and apparently absent in Asiatic and African populations. From the Baltic region of peak frequency there was a regular decline of LWb incidence (a descending cline) in the neighboring populations: 4.0% in the Estonians, 2.9% in the Finns, 2. 2% in the Vologda Russians, and 2.0% in the Poles. Thus the distribution of LWb suggests considerable and extensive Baltic admixture, especially in the north and northeast direction. In Southern Sweden with an LWb frequency of 0.3%, the Baltic influence appeared slight, while in the population of the Swedish island Gotland in the middle of the Baltic Sea there was a significantly increased LWb frequency of 1.0% compared with that of Western European countries. The distinction of codominantly inherited LW antigenic forms, LWa and LWb (previously Nea), is known to be due to a single base substitution. Based on our population data, it is plausible that the expansion of this point mutation occurred only once during human history. Furthermore, our data indicate that the expansion of the LWb mutation occurred in Balts and that LWb can be considered a 'Baltic tribal marker', its presence in other populations being an indicator of the degree of Baltic genetic influence.

Link

This is actually very interesting information regarding DNA and its expansion in the Baltic sea countries. Imho, would be great to see more information from Poland and present Kaliningrad Oblast. I assume there should be also pretty high frequency of this specific mark.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 07:36 AM   #1719
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Thank you Depeched, a very good thread.

I am interested in the former East Prussia and read several books on the history of the area.

Roy

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Old March 24th, 2015, 02:39 AM   #1720
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The house of German philosopher Immanuel Kant:




Completly abandoned! Russia can not take care of Prussian cultural heritage. It should be a museum!
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