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Old March 24th, 2015, 08:20 PM   #1741
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Most Austrians would also had said "German" if you ask them for their nationality (which is not the same as citizenship) before 1945. It's just that the k.u.k. monarchy wasn't a Nation state like Germany. Nevertheless the German speaking Austrians felt in a great majority as Germans, as you could see right after the monarchy broke apart.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 08:57 PM   #1742
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I think it depends on where in Austria you'd ask that question. My experience tells me the Viennese are allergic to anything German-related, from predominantly German-centered history, through cross-border relations, to petty things like their accent while speaking a foreign language. And I imagine it to be very similar in the 1940s. It was, and probably still is, different in other parts of the country. I believe most Austrians, while they're not considering themselves German anymore, still have a special brotherhood-like relationship with the Germans, especially Bavarians and other southerners.

But, we should be talking about East Prussia if I'm not mistaken.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 09:04 PM   #1743
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No question for today. You have to hate what your are the most alike to don't get confused with it :P
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Old March 24th, 2015, 10:14 PM   #1744
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20111423 wrote:

Quote:
A lot of Belarussians and Ukrainians, or Belarussian, Ukrainian Poles came to Suwalki region after the war during the changes of the borders. And the other way: many Lithuanians were deported in 1920 (esp. in Seiny; where all the Lithuanian clergy were deported from Seiny seminary, where they constituted the majority and many local inhabitants, who were called "not loyal", with hatred called "litwomaniacs", "pagans"), others moved by their own will to Lithuania. During German occupation (1941-1944), again many Lithuanians were deported to Lithuania. After the war they were not allowed to come back and settled in Lithuania. Thus probably half of the population changed during the last 100 years alone.
Why posting random guesstimates when more precise numbers are available?

The Suwałki Governorate of Congress Poland, divided into 7 counties (Suwałki, Augustów, Sejny, Kalwaria, Wyłkowyszki, Mariampol, Władysławów):



Below is the data on ethnic structure of this govenorate - include each of its seven counties - before World War 1:

In 1897 Suwałki county had in total 7767 Lithuanians, or 11% of county's total inhabitants:

Suwałki - 69725 inhabitants; incl. 53294 Poles, 7767 Lithuanians*
Augustów - 65693 inhabitants; incl. 58277 Poles, 160 Lithuanians**
Sejny - 78122 inhabitants; incl. 17219 Poles, 48696 Lithuanians
Kalwaria - 60821 inhabitants; incl. 5628 Poles, 49596 Lithuanians
Wyłkowyszki - 67200 inhabitants; incl. 2375 Poles, 51112 Lithuanians
Mariampol - 100758 inhabitants; incl. 1939 Poles, 86074 Lithuanians

**The city of Augustów had 15 Lithuanians and 5757 Poles:

Augustów - 5757 Poles, 15 Lithuanians

*But lmost all Lithuanians in Suwalki county were concentrated three communes of that county - Maćkowo, Sejwy and Andrzejewo.

In 1914 those three communes had in total 7704 Lithuanians:

Maćkowo - 29 Poles, 2116 Lithuanians
Andrzejewo - 961 Poles, 2332 Lithuanians
Sejwy - 3433 Poles, 3256 Lithuanians

The town (municipality) of Suwałki itself in 1914 had 95 Lithuanians and 8452 Poles:

Suwałki - 8452 Poles, 95 Lithuanians

The county of Sejny in 1914 was dominated by Lithuanians but Poles were majority in several communes & municipalities:

Pokrowsk - 5822 Poles, 5 Lithuanians
Krasnopol - 4610 Poles, no Lithuanians
Łoździeje town - 1206 Poles, 25 Lithuanians
Sejny town - 1550 Poles, 171 Lithuanians (by comparison in 1897 it had 1521 Poles, 149 Lithuanians)

The commune of Berżniki had similar proportion of both ethnic groups:

Berżniki - 3236 Poles, 3331 Lithuanians

The remaining communes of the county of Sejny in 1914 were Lithuanian-dominated:

Wiejsieje - 1844 Poles, 3763 Lithuanians
Krasnowo - 100 Poles, 7965 Lithuanians
Kopciowo - 112 Poles 5680 Lithuanians
Lejpuny - 410 Poles, 5614 Lithuanians
Kudrany - 515 Poles, 4820 Lithuanians
Sereje - 250 Poles, 6949 Lithuanians
Świętojeziory - 217 Poles, 6581 Lithuanians
Metele - 176 Poles, 4254 Lithuanians
Mirosław - 10 Poles, 4209 Lithuanians

The city of Kalwaria (today in Lithuania) had similar proportion of Poles and Lithuanians in 1914:

Kalwaria - 1329 Poles, 1494 Lithuanians

Poles and Lithuanians in towns of the northern part of the Suwałki Governorate in 1914:

Preny - 471 Poles, 603 Lithuanians
Mariampol - 673 Poles, 1204 Lithuanians
Wyłkowyszki - 358 Poles, 833 Lithuanians
Władysławów - 343 Poles, 1024 Lithuanians
Wierzbołów - 227 Poles, 878 Lithuanians
Szaki - 40 Poles, 408 Lithuanians

===================================
===================================

So here is the approximate ethnic structure of the Suwałki Governorate of Congress Poland (check also the map above which shows the administratie boundaries of this Governorate) in 1900 - 1919. I added names of all counties of this governorate (Suwałki, Augustów, Sejny, Kalwaria, Wyłkowyszki, Mariampol, Władysławów). This map shows the percentage of Poles among the total population. White colour = areas with less than 20% of Poles:

Blue line = border of Poland before WW2
Green line = modern border of Poland



To summ up:

The counties of Augustów and Suwałki had absolute Polish majority, with significant Lithuanian population living only in three rural communes of the Suwałki county - namely Maćkowo, Andrzejewo and Sejwy communes. On the other hand the county of Sejny had Lithuanian majority, but six western communes and municipalities of that county - namely Pokrowsk, Krasnopol, Łoździeje, the town of Sejny itself, Berżniki and Wiejsieje - had significant Polish population.

Modern Polish-Lithuanian state border in Suwałki area is in agreement with ethnic structure of this region before WW1. Any population movements taking place after WW1 - whether they really were as significant as you claim or not - did not significantly change the ethnic structure of Suwałki region.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 10:21 PM   #1745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weissenberg View Post
Prior to the interwar period being Polish was a social status rather than ethnicity. Ruthenians, Germans, Lithuanians and other minorities became Polish by climbing the social ladder rather than assimilating into the ethnic Polish culture. It's a common misconception that a term describing one's nationality in the 21st century carried exactly the same meaning 100 years ago. It didn't. It also varied per region. For example, if you asked an early 20th century Austrian about his ancestry he'd say "German". Because even when a united German state came into existance, the word German referred to one's language/ethnicity and not nationality. And that's what most people (Polish, German, Lithuanian etc.) tend not to understand.
Of course, this is incorrect. Poland as a nation-state existed since the 10th century, unified by Polans who subdued other Lechitic tribes, e.g. Vistulans (speakers of mutually intelligible West Slavic languages). Polish ethnicity arose in the following years as a result of similarities in language, culture, etc. After fragmentation of Poland in 1138, the ethnic ties among people of various duchies were already so strong that for example Mazovians didn't differentiate themselves from Poles and vice versa. This definitely helped in a rather peaceful re-unification of Poland by Wladyslaw I Elbow-High during the 14th century.

If you like to learn a bit more about early history of Poland, I'd recommend "Cronicae et gesta ducum sive principum Polonorum" (link) written between 1113 and 1116.

I would agree that in the areas annexed by Kingdom of Poland after the 14th century being Polish not always equalled being ethnic Polish (e.g. gente Ruthenus, natione Polonus). Here, we could have a situation that you described as attempts to change "social status label".

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Old March 24th, 2015, 10:23 PM   #1746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weissenberg View Post
Prior to the interwar period being Polish was a social status rather than ethnicity. Ruthenians, Germans, Lithuanians and other minorities became Polish by climbing the social ladder rather than assimilating into the ethnic Polish culture. It's a common misconception that a term describing one's nationality in the 21st century carried exactly the same meaning 100 years ago. It didn't. It also varied per region. For example, if you asked an early 20th century Austrian about his ancestry he'd say "German". Because even when a united German state came into existance, the word German referred to one's language/ethnicity and not nationality. And that's what most people (Polish, German, Lithuanian etc.) tend not to understand.
Nope.

Being Polish prior to the interwar period was exactly the same as being German prior to the interwar period - i.e it referred to one's language/religion/ethnicity/culture. As well as to nationality, in case of people who actually had a national identity (as some people lacked it at that time).

Quote:
Ruthenians, Germans, Lithuanians and other minorities became Polish by climbing the social ladder rather than assimilating into the ethnic Polish culture.
Here you are confusing the cause with the effect; or the process with its result. Those people were becoming Polish by assimilating into the ethnic Polish culture. But if they lived in a place dominated by Polish culture, then naturally climbing the social ladder in most cases equalled being assimilated into that culture. So you could hardly climb the ladder without adopting the dominant culture on top of that ladder. This refers to any ethnic culture of course. In Germany a Slavic-speaking Sorb etc. who climbes a social ladder and moves from a village to a big city, also becomes ethnically (linguistically-culturally) Germanized.

Climbing the social ladder definitely facilitates ethnic assimilation into the dominant culture.

One of reasons why you have problems with assimilating Muslim immigrants into your ethnic culture today, is because they don't climb the ladder.

===========================

The point is that becoming Polish = adopting Polish culture. And it could be done also without climbing the social ladder, not only as its effect.

Quote:
being Polish not always equalled being ethnic Polish (e.g. gente Ruthenus, natione Polonus).
Indeed, but those people had Polish national identity (hence they underlined the "natione Polonus" part).
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Old March 24th, 2015, 10:54 PM   #1747
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As for Austrians:

"Austrian" identity separate from German identity existed already before 1945.

Adolf Hitler mercilessly criticized that identity in his "Mein Kampf" (to the point that he even called Austria an "artificial state"):

Quote:
(...) In relatively early adolescence I had an opportunity to take part in a nationalistic struggle in old Austria. We had a school organization and we expressed our views using cornflowers and black-red-gold colours. We were saluting each other with 'Heil' and instead of 'Kaiserlied' we were singing, despite warnings and punishments, 'Deutschland über Alles'. This way, we young people were educating ourselves politically (...) I was not among the indifferent people and soon I became a fanatical German nationalist, but not in modern party-related understanding of this word. Development in this direction was in my case very fast, so fast that already when a 15 years old boy I could distinguish between dynastic 'patriotism', and national 'nationalism'. I understood the latter much better. Already as boys we knew, that this Austrian state did not show any affection for us, Germans. Our knowledge about methods of conduct of the Habsburgs was being confirmed each day by daily experiences. In the north and in the south the poison of alien races was devouring the flesh of our nation and even Vienna was gradually less and less resembling a German city. "The Emperor's House" was becoming Czech where only that was possible; finally the hand of the goddess of everlasting justice and unrelenting vengeance killed the greatest enemy of the Germanness of Austria - Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was killed by a bullet whom he had personally helped. After all, he was the main patron of the movement the goal of which was to turn Austria into a Slavic country. The embryo of the World War and indeed the total ruin of Germany were caused by fatal alliance between the young German Reich with the Austrian artificial state. (...) Since my earliest adolescence I was convinced, that the destruction of Austria is the necessary condition for the security of the German race. (...) The misfortune for the German race was especially the ruling House of Habsburg. The consequences of that was my passionate love of the German Austria and my deep hatred of the Austrian State. (...)

(...) Because the domination of the ethnic German element had been broken, the system served for games between particular nationalities. Generally the line of development was established against Germans. Especially from times when the Archduke, Franz Ferdinand, began to grow in strength, and he supported Czech ambitions. The future ruler of the monarchy attempted with use of all means to cause the process of De-Germanization. This is why often German settlements were being slowly but efficiently subjected to influence of foreign-speaking nations. In Lower Austria the process was much faster and many Czechs considered Vienna to be their own city. The main idea of that new Habsburg, whose family spoke Czech (wife of the Archduke was an ethnic Czech countess and in her family there were strong anti-German traditions), aimed at establishing in Central Europe a Slavic state with Catholic religion as a counter-weight to Orthodox Russia. That's how religion became once again involved in serving political concepts, which was frequent in Habsburg policies. (...) After the war of 1870 the House of Habsburg slowly, with premeditation and determination, started an effort leading to rooting out the dangerous German race - it was the goal of the Slavophile family of the [Austrian] emperor. (...)
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Old March 24th, 2015, 10:58 PM   #1748
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Then it must be true, the Führer never fails.
Nothing special. Inside Reichs-Deutschland we had some seperatistic tendencies too. Mostly in catholic regions like Rhineland or Bavaria.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 11:43 PM   #1749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMyth
If we started drawing borders based on genetics, northern Italy, Holland, Luxembourg, etc. would become part of a greater Germany (Germanic stock)
That's a gross and quite ridiculous oversimplification.

If we go by paternal lineages, then according to Eupedia Germanic Y-DNA includes haplogroups I1 (or most of it at least), R1b-U106 and R1a-Z284.

16% of Germans have I1 (source: Eupedia), 19% have R1b-U106 (source: Myres 2010) and 0,9% have R1a-Z284 (source: Underhill 2014).

Myres 2010 (for R1b-U106): http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html
Underhill 2014 (for R1a-Z284): http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html
Eupedia (for I1): http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Therefore in total only around 35,9% of ethnic Germans are of Germanic stock (in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroup).

So majority of ethnic Germans - about 64,1% - are of Non-Germanic stock (Celtic, Italic, Slavic, Baltic, whatever, etc.).


In case of the Netherlands 34,48% have R1b-U106 and 16,5% have I1, making them 50,98% of Germanic stock (if Eupedia is right about ethnic origins of these haplogroups). So the Netherlands is more Germanic than Germany itself - perhaps Germany should become part of greater Holland ???

In case of northern Italy only 5,6% have R1b-U106 and 7% have I1 - making them only 12,6% of Germanic stock.

===========================

R1a-Z284 is very small in numbers in Italy and the Netherlands.

It is "Germanic" but especially Norwegian & Danish - so it is most common in Scandinavia:

Norwegians - 20,3% (24 people out of a sample of 118)
Danish people - 7,1%
South Swedes - 3,5%
South England - 3,4%
Switzerland - 1,3%
Ireland - 1%
Germany - 0,9% (3 people out of a sample of 322)

===============================

Charts based on data from Myres 2010:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...e-charts/page2

R1b haplogroup makes 43,88% of German Y-DNA, but "Germanic" U-106 is only 19% (less than half of all R1b):



In Italy R1b haplogroup makes 48,3% of North Italian Y-DNA, but "Germanic" U-106 is only 5,6% (ca. 1/9 of R1b):



In the Netherlands R1b haplogroup makes 52,88% of their Y-DNA, "Germanic" U-106 is 34,48% (2/3 of R1b):

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Old March 25th, 2015, 12:03 AM   #1750
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So - if anything - you should partition Germany between Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands.

Because both Denmark, Norway and perhaps also the Netherlands are more Germanic than Germany.

Certainly you cannot attach these countries to "greater Germany" based on criterion of Germanicness.

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Old March 25th, 2015, 12:36 AM   #1751
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Denmark is 17,27% (Myres 2010) - 18,2% (Cruciani 2010) U106, 7,1% Z284 and 34% I1 - making them around 60% "Germanic".

Probably the most "Germanic" people are Norwegians - 31,5% I1 + 20,3% Z284 already makes 51,8%. And I don't have data on how frequent is U-106 among them, but perhaps about as frequent as in Denmark - so Norwegians would be ca. 70% Germanic. Then Danes & Swedes, followed by Dutch people.

=======================

Here slightly different data for frequency of R1b-U106 (from Cruciani 2010):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...ntral-and.html

Here a website which argues against the "Germanicness" of R1b-U106:

https://r1bu106.wordpress.com/the-fr...yth-of-r-u106/

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Old March 25th, 2015, 01:22 AM   #1752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj20 View Post
It was a famine, not a genocide. And the ones responsible... nevermind.
Yes, it was because it was deliberated!

and Katyn! 11 thousands of Polish soldiers were shot by Red Army

millions of Poles expelled from East territory of Poland

millions of Germans, Silesians, pomerans and Prussians expelled from their territory

2 millions German women raped

gulags

deportations..

Repression in former USSR have killed 30 millions people
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Old March 25th, 2015, 01:22 AM   #1753
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Very well, Norwegians are most Germanic of all peoples. Now I can sleep soundly. Can we go back to the topic then?
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Old March 25th, 2015, 02:00 AM   #1754
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Books I recommend on the subject include two by former residents: A Childhood under Hitler and Stalin: Memoirs of a "Certified Jew" by Michael Wieck - he survived the Holocaust, the siege of Konigsberg and Soviet occupation, a must read. And Before the Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia by Marion Graf Donhoff - she grew up on an estate and escaped overland.

I also enjoyed two books which each combine history with contemporary travel. Forgotten Lands: Journeys among the Ghosts of East Prussia by Max Egremont and The Vanished Kingdom: Travels through the History of Prussia by James Charles Roy.

Again, thank you to all who shared photos and documents on this thread. As an American I am very proud of the people of Poland, Lithuania, East Germany and all other countries who gained their freedom.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 02:12 AM   #1755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goy View Post
Yes, it was because it was deliberated!
Only neo-nazis believe it was deliberated. You'd be welcome at stormfront.org.

Quote:
and Katyn! 11 thousands of Polish soldiers were shot by Red Army
Ugly, but not a genocide.

Quote:
millions of Poles expelled from East territory of Poland
Very ugly, but not a genocide.

Quote:
millions of Germans, Silesians, pomerans and Prussians expelled from their territory
What amazes me is how the germans are reluctant to pay for their crimes. You country crippled Soviet economy by third eventually costing it victory in the Cold War and yet you refuse to accept you had to pay for that. Collective responsibility of german people was decided when germany agreed to pay Israel for holocaust.

Quote:
2 millions German women raped
That's a myth... They derived these numbers from the spike in abortions in Germany in 1945. In reality, the german women simply prostituted themselves to Red Army soldiers to feed their families. That said, some raping actually took place.

Quote:
gulags
Were basically prisons filled with mostly common criminals. Mostly.

Quote:
deportations..
Ugly, but not as ugly as what germans did.

Quote:
Repression in former USSR have killed 30 millions people
Prove it.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 03:18 AM   #1756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj20 View Post
Only neo-nazis believe it was deliberated. You'd be welcome at stormfront.org.


Ugly, but not a genocide.


Very ugly, but not a genocide.


What amazes me is how the germans are reluctant to pay for their crimes. You country crippled Soviet economy by third eventually costing it victory in the Cold War and yet you refuse to accept you had to pay for that. Collective responsibility of german people was decided when germany agreed to pay Israel for holocaust.


That's a myth... They derived these numbers from the spike in abortions in Germany in 1945. In reality, the german women simply prostituted themselves to Red Army soldiers to feed their families. That said, some raping actually took place.


Were basically prisons filled with mostly common criminals. Mostly.


Ugly, but not as ugly as what germans did.


Prove it.
God! You disgusted me! How can I ignore this troll


I am not German and I don't want to discuss with you anymore! There are only chauvinist in East Europe! Don't reply my posts anyomore, please! You disgust me!

I think denial of crimes of communism should be a crime, like the denial of holocaust!

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Old March 25th, 2015, 03:23 AM   #1757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goy View Post
God! You disgusted me! How can I ignore this troll


I am not German and I don't want to discuss with you anymore! There are only chauvinist in East Europe! Don't reply my posts anyomore, please! You disgust me!
He is disgusting the problem is you're not better than him.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 03:48 AM   #1758
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Who is the mod of this thread?
I insist to ban Raj20. He is detoriating discussion.
Please delete conversation between Goy and Raj20.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 03:52 AM   #1759
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I think denial of crimes of communism should be a crime, like the denial of holocaust!
And who were the Communists? Stalin and Beria were Georgians. Kaganovich was Ukrainian. Dzerzhinsky was Polish. Anastas Mikoyan was Armenian. Yet, the Russian Ivan is getting the blame. How fair is that?

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Old March 25th, 2015, 11:46 AM   #1760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
If we go by paternal lineages, then according to Eupedia Germanic Y-DNA includes haplogroups I1 (or most of it at least), R1b-U106 and R1a-Z284.

16% of Germans have I1 (source: Eupedia), 19% have R1b-U106 (source: Myres 2010) and 0,9% have R1a-Z284 (source: Underhill 2014).

Myres 2010 (for R1b-U106): http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html
Underhill 2014 (for R1a-Z284): http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html
Eupedia (for I1): http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Therefore in total only around 35,9% of ethnic Germans are of Germanic stock (in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroup).

So majority of ethnic Germans - about 64,1% - are of Non-Germanic stock (Celtic, Italic, Slavic, Baltic, whatever, etc.).
This makes perfect sense, especially when you'll take a look at extent of (Late Old High) German speaking area around 950...

Source
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