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Old March 25th, 2015, 02:13 PM   #1761
Domen123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS UK-PL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen
Therefore in total only around 35,9% of ethnic Germans are of Germanic stock (in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroup).

So majority of ethnic Germans - about 64,1% - are of Non-Germanic stock (Celtic, Italic, Slavic, Baltic, whatever, etc.).
This makes perfect sense, especially when you'll take a look at extent of (Late Old High) German speaking area around 950...
As for other subclades of R1b haplogroup:

Apart from U-106 also U-198 is probably Germanic (so we might add 1,87% to the previous 35,9% - making them 37,77% Germanic).

But R-U152, R-M222 and R-M529 are considered to be Italo-Celtic (Italic and / or Celtic) in origin.

And R-P312* as shown by these graphs is most certainly Celto-Iberian:





R-L23* is also rather Non-Germanic, it is found at higher frequencies in Slavic, Finno-Ugric, etc. countries:















Among the Komi peoples (Finno-Ugric from Russia) it is as high as 11,5%:



In Kosovo (inhabited mostly by Albanians) it is almost as high - 11,4%:

Also R-M269* is high in Kosovo (and in general in South-Eastern Europe):



======================

R1b-M412* on the other hand is frequent in Greece:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...e-charts/page3



=====================

Eupedia also claims that I2b is mostly "pre-Celto-Germanic".

Some of its subclades might be typical for Germanic peoples.

But it is small in numbers even as a whole, let alone just some of its subclades.

Anyway - Germans will not get over 40% "Germanic", no matter how we count.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 02:22 PM   #1762
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BTW it would be nice if someone tested the DNA of Germans with all 4 grandparents living in former German eastern territories before WW2.

This way we would learn how Slavic & Baltic were those Germans - i.e. whether the "Ostsiedlung" was a large migration, or assimilation (Germanization) of locals.

British people have recently finished "the British Isles genetic project" and it turns out - among other things - that people whose all 4 grandparents lived in rural areas of Central, Southern and Eastern England are 10% - 40% genetically Anglo-Saxon, while people whose all 4 grandparents lived in rural areas of Wales, are only 0% - 10% genetically Anglo-Saxon.

Thus 1) the Anglo-Saxon migration indeed took place, but 2) they did not replace / exterminate previous Romano-Briton population but assimilated them.

Also 3) there is still a genetic boundary between Wales and England, running roughly along the Offa's Dyke. I wrote more about this here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=545011

People whose great-grandparents lived to the east of the Offa's Dyke are genetically 10%-40% Anglo-Saxon, while to the east of it only 0%-10%.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 02:28 PM   #1763
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Of course, this is incorrect. Poland as a nation-state existed since the 10th century, unified by Polans who subdued other Lechitic tribes, e.g. Vistulans (speakers of mutually intelligible West Slavic languages). Polish ethnicity arose in the following years as a result of similarities in language, culture, etc. After fragmentation of Poland in 1138, the ethnic ties among people of various duchies were already so strong that for example Mazovians didn't differentiate themselves from Poles and vice versa. This definitely helped in a rather peaceful re-unification of Poland by Wladyslaw I Elbow-High during the 14th century.
I disagree. Poland as a national state didn't exist until the 20th century. It's nothing else but a founding myth. Various tribes and later duchies that emerged from those tribes had absolutely no sense of unity and loyalty, they competited with each other and traded alliances for hundreds of years. That is the very reason why the burghers of Lesser Poland actively opposed the rule of Ladislaus I and why the nobles of Silesia traded unified Poland for the Kingdom of Bohemia.

Polish ethnicity and culture as we know it today, emerged from the noble democracy. And this is also my response to the Domen's post. For hundreds of years the term Polish [in Polish language] was equal to noble. A 19th century peasant from Lesser Poland wasn't Polish, the term was reserved to the nobles, hence the declarations similar to "gente Ruthenus, natione Polonus", only the szlachta was considered Polish, no matter of what ethnicity. And this is the main reason why except the noblemen, the church and later the emerging intelligentsia nobody in Poland had any interest in restoring the independent Polish state during the Partitions. And such divided society led into the events such as the Galician Slaughter.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 03:14 PM   #1764
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I cannot agree with Weissenberg here.

Quote:
Various tribes and later duchies that emerged from those tribes had absolutely no sense of unity and loyalty, they competited with each other and traded alliances for hundreds of years.
Tribes ceased to exist in the 10th century, when the Piast dynasty of the Polans forged the Polish state, conquering or destroying all tribal centers of political power, and constructing a network of their own strongholds and administrative centers. Duchies into which Poland later politically fragmented did not emerge from tribes, and their political borders did not even correspond to former tribal borders. It was a process of feudal fragmentation (similar to that in France, the Holy Roman Empire, and Kievan Russia) resulting from Piast dynasty rulers of Poland having too many sons, and thus dividing the land and the thrones between their sons. See the testament of Boleslav III. However, Boleslav III did not intend to fragment his realm politically - his intention was cooperation between the dukes, and younger sons were supposed to be obedient to the oldest son (Senior), who was supposed to rule as Princeps - the supreme ruler of all Polish duchies. The plan did not work out exactly as intended, because Boleslav's sons started to fight against each other for power and influence. At first younger brothers teamed-up against the Princeps - Wladyslav - and expelled him. Then acting together they elected a new Princeps from among themselves. This already weakened central authority and supreme position of the Princeps, but did not put an end to it completely. The erosion of central authority was gradual, and later re-unification of Poland followed. The peak of erosion of central authority was between ca. 1245 - ca. 1290. After 1290 re-unification started.

Dukes competed with each other, but they did have a sense of unity - all of them considered themselves to be Polish dukes, and each of them wanted to reunite all Polish lands under his own power. Hence for example Silesian duke Henry the Bearded in the 1200s was interested in seizing control over the city of Cracow, which was commonly recognized as the "Pan-Polish" capital (aside from capitals of each duchy). And once he took it - he made it his new capital city (which had been Wroclaw before that).

Quote:
That is the very reason why the burghers of Lesser Poland actively opposed the rule of Ladislaus I
The burghers of Lesser Poland did not oppose the rule of Ladislaus I. You probably mean the rebellion of German minority in Cracow. That was not the rebellion of all burghers, but only of ethnic German burghers including also Germanized locals - who comprised (both Germans and Germanized locals together) no more than 30% of the city's inhabitants. The revolt was pacified by Polish forces, and the loyalty of population was examined using the "ethnicity test" - those who could speak Polish were judged loyal, those who faltered were judged guilty of the revolt:

"(...) A revolt by the Germans of Cracow [in 1311 - 1312], headed by one Albert, and by Bishop Jan Muskata, who thought of returning to their earlier Bohemian allegiance, was suppressed (...) Investigations into the Cracovian revolt were assisted by a simple language test. Any suspect who could repeat and correctly pronounce 'soczewica', 'koło', 'miele', 'młyn' was judged loyal; he who faltered was guilty. (...) The Archbishop of Gniezno, Jakub Swinka, brought Bishop Muskata, the 'enemy of the Polish people', before an ecclesiastical court. He excommunicated [in 1285] the duke of Głogów, who 'was turning Silesia into a new Saxony' and had resigned his claim to Pomerania in favour of the Teutonic Order."

So not entire Lesser Poland, but just one city. And not entire population of that city, but just its German minority.

Quote:
Polish ethnicity and culture as we know it today, emerged from the noble democracy.
This is obviously not true because Polish ethnicity and culture - including written language - existed long before the noble democracy emerged.

It is like claiming that German culture as we know it today, emerged from the militaristic rule of Junkers in Prussia-Brandenburg. Only partially true.

Quote:
For hundreds of years the term Polish [in Polish language] was equal to noble.
I don't know where did you take this form, but this is not true. I could prove my points with many references, but I think it is enough to quote one 15th century text and see how it uses the term "Poles" - you will clearly see, that it refers also to commoners (peasants and townsmen / burghers), not just to nobles:

Jan Ostroróg (1436-1501), "Monumentum pro Reipublicae Ordinatione Congestum" ("Treatise on Improving the Republic"), published in 1475:



In English:

"XXII. About Sermons in the German Language:

Oh what an ungracious and hideous thing for the Poles, that in many places in our churches sermons are given in German language, and this takes place in a lofty and magnificent setting, where only one or two old women listen to them, while at the same time the crowds of Poles are squeezed somewhere in the corner with their preacher. And because nature itself implanted eternal discord and hatred between these two languages (as well as in some other aspects), I exhort you not to say the mass in that language. Let the one who wants to live in Poland learn to speak Polish! Unless we are such simpletons that we forget that the Germans treat our language in a similar fashion in their country. And if, after all, such sermons are needed for the foreign immigrants, let them take place somewhere in secluded spots, without damage to the dignity of the Poles."


"The crowds of Poles are squeezed somewhere in the corner" - it is about commoners, not nobles.



In English:

"XX. About Enrolling Monks to the Monasteries.

Lords ruling the Republic! How feeble-minded are you, that until this day you have tolerated the fact, that from monasteries - dowered with land and income by our ancestors, built on Polish soil and with its crops fed by the Poles - they are excluding our kinsmen and not allowing them to join the convents; and this only because they are bound by an act of law, which tells them to enroll only Germans to the convent. This act of law is ridiculous and contrary to church laws. Because who dares to impose such a yoke upon the sovereign Kingdom of Poland - the King of which does not recognize the lordship of anyone above him - under the false guise of an act of law? You, brave men - if you want to be considered brave - must stop allowing the Germans - and especially these boorish and effeminate monks - to make fun of the Polish nation, and to deceive it with their bogus piety."




In English:

"XVIII. About the Pride of Priests:

Many of you, or maybe all of you, even if less fit to pastoral work, are applying for the priestly dignity, because idleness tends to be pleasant and attractive, while inaction tends to be nice and engaging. Perhaps, if I am not mistaken, the thing which encourages them to do this, is what Saint Paul said: Who desires a bishopric, desires something good. However, they don't know, that desiring itself is evil. One who steals gold, steals something good, but stealing itself is evil. And every priest, if we believe church laws, is a bishop, generally speaking. Sirs! Have you read what I wrote above, as well as what Hieronymus wrote, many of you would have chosen another way of life, and really valued the afterlife more than the earthly life. Myself being a Pole, and seeing what is happening in Poland now, I could not be silent about this."
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Old March 25th, 2015, 03:16 PM   #1765
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Quote:
And such divided society led into the events such as the Galician Slaughter.
The Galician slaughter was incited by Austrian authorities, who had interest in causing social unrest and dividing the Poles.

Also - it was not an ethnic conflict, but a "regular" anti-feudal peasant rebellion, the same as similar events in other parts of Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_peasant_revolts

German states saw plenty of peasant rebellions until at least the 1700s. Does it mean that peasants in Germany were not German?

=============

Quote:
except the noblemen, the church and later the emerging intelligentsia nobody in Poland had any interest in restoring the independent Polish state during the Partitions.
I cannot agree again.

Wielkopolskie Uprising and Silesian Uprisings were not started by "the noblemen, the church and the intelligentsia", but by normal people.

The Spring of Nations in 1848 throughout Europe was also not limited to upper classes.


Quote:
and why the nobles of Silesia traded unified Poland for the Kingdom of Bohemia.
Those were not the nobles of Silesia who traded it to Bohemia, but some of the Piast dukes of Silesia. And by the time of trading their duchies to Bohemian kings (and thus indirectly also to Holy Roman Emperors), most of Lower Silesian Piasts were already quite heavily Germanized. Let's also remember that most of Lower Silesian dukes were forced to become vassals of Bohemian kings, who used military power to "convince" them, rather than doing so voluntarily.

Anyway - most of Lower Silesian dukes spoke both Polish and German by that time, and some of them were leaning politically towards the HRE.

The situation was different in Upper Silesia, where local dukes continued to speak Polish (sometimes only Polish) at least until the 16th century - Mikołaj II of Opole (1462 - 1497) did not even know a single word in German language, and Jan II of Opole (1460 - 1532) was the first monarch who enacted legal acts written in Polish language in his duchy (in the Kingdom of Poland at that time Latin was still used as language of written laws). The oldest known sentences written in Polish language also come from Silesia - but from Lower Silesia (year 1241: "Gorze nam się stało"; year 1270: "Daj ać ja pobruszę a ty poczywaj").

In case if you have doubts whether the 1270 statement from Lower Silesian Book of Henryków is in Polish or in "Silesian":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ryk%C3%B3w.PNG



The scribe himself underlined that this statement is "in polonico" (which is Latin for "in Polish").

"Silesian language" does not exist. And the statement was also not in Czech language (Latin: "in boemico").

==================================

As for Polish written language:

Although oldest known sentences written in Polish come from the 1200s, Polish became popularized as written languages during the 1400s.

It was also during the 1400s were rules of Polish ortography were first established (later they were modified on numerous occasions).

Medieval Poles using Latin instead of Polish as language of writing were not an exception.

In the Early Middle Ages most of the writing in continental Europe was being done in a "dead language" - Latin - while "living languages" (those actually spoken by the masses) were only in use as spoken languages and as languages of customary law. In Charlemagne's Empire the only official written language was Latin - courts, administration, acts of written law and schools used exclusively Latin. But during the High and Late Middle Ages, living languages were increasingly becoming present in literature, law, schols, etc., gradually displacing Latin - at first French language, later (widespread use in writing since the 13th century) German, later (widespread use in writing since the 14th century) Czech language and - finally - Polish (widespread use in writing since the 15th century).

Jakub Parkoszowic (Latin: Jacobus Parcossius) is the author of the oldest known treatise about Polish ortography titled "Obiecado" ("Abecadło" in modern Polish spelling), published (1st edition) in year 1440 (search with Google: "Jacobi Parkossii de Zorawice de orthographia polonica libellus"). Later in year 1513 Stanisław Zaborowski published his "Ortographia seu modus recte scribendi et legendi polonicum idioma quam utilissimus". Etc., etc.

When first sentences in Polish language were being written (1200s), German was already becoming commonly used in written text.

But German was not the most "cultured" of languages of continental Europe - this feat goes to French language, which started to replace Latin first.

Czech language is the first of West Slavic languages which became commonly used in writing - during the 1300s. Polish followed in the 1400s.

However, Czech language lost its importance as language of writing after the Thirty Years' War. Ethnic Czech culture vastly declined in the 1600s.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 05:28 PM   #1766
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Large numbers of lower (e.g. Kosynierzy became one of the symbols of the struggle for Polish independence) and middle class Polish citizens voluntarily participated for example in uprising against Imperial Russia and the Kingdom of Prussia led by Tadeusz Kościuszko in 1794.

Wojciech Bartosz Głowacki and Jan Kiliński monuments (erected in 1894 and 1906) in Lviv


As Domen123 wrote, "Polish ethnicity and culture - including written language - existed long before the noble democracy emerged". Please familiarize yourself with pre-1505 (prior to establishment of "Nihil novi") chronicles: "Cronicae et gesta ducum sive principum Polonorum" (written between 1113 and 1116, link), "Chronica seu originale regum et principum Poloniae" (written between 1190 and 1205, link), "Chronicon Polono-Silesiacum" (written in ca.1278, link), "Chronica principum Poloniae" (written between 1382 and 1386), etc.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 05:54 PM   #1767
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Indeed, many peasants still participated in the Kościuszko Revolution, the November Uprising, the January Uprising, etc.

So many peasants did fight, even if majority of them were indifferent. Not that it was not the case in other parts of Europe.

In revolutionary France peasants were also not very patriotic / enthusiastic about the revolution. Some even opposed it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e

Quote:
The War in the Vendée (1793 to 1796; French: Guerre de Vendée) was an uprising in the Vendée region of France during the French Revolution. The Vendée is a coastal region, located immediately south of the Loire River in western France. Initially, the war was similar to the 14th-century Jacquerie peasant uprising, but quickly acquired themes considered by the government in Paris to be counterrevolutionary, and Royalist. The uprising headed by the self-styled Catholic and Royal Army was comparable to the Chouannerie, which took place in the area north of the Loire.
And the Chouannerie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chouannerie

Quote:
In 1791, the adoption of the Civil Constitution of the Clergy caused the peasants around Vannes to rise in defence of their bishop against the Republicans of Lorient who wished him to swear the oath of loyalty to the Civil Constitution. The following spring, in the area around Quimper, a justice of the peace led several parishes in a rising in the name of King Louis XVI against the local authorities.[2]
So peasants were quite conservative and not eager to fight for changes (be it independence or other kinds of changes) everywhere in Europe.

==============================================

Here is what K. Marx and F. Engels wrote about Poland in the context of the Spring of Nations of 1848 and the January Uprising of 1863-1864:

Translated to English from an article "Karl Marx and the January Uprising" by Adam Ciołkosz:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=542610

"(...) Marx and Engels considered Poland as a nation first of all indispensible (nécessaire), and secondly - revolutionary. The indispensibility of the Polish nation resulted from fact, that the whole power of the Reaction in Europe since 1815 (and maybe even since the French Revolution) was based on the "sacred aliance" of Russia, Austria, and Prussia, cemented together by the Partitions of Poland. Crushing the reactionaries, destroying the "sacred alliance", required the restoration of Poland. The revolutionary character of the Polish nation - according to Marx and Engels - resulted from fact that Poles had to be revolutional, if they did not want to die as a nation under the yoke of despotic monarchies. Aiming at destruction of the "sacred alliance" of three reactionary powers, the Poles therefore became leaders of revolutionary movements of the whole of Europe, against the patriarchal-feudal absolutism in Europe. During the hot days of "the Springtime of the Peoples" of 1848, Marx wrote: "the Poles are everywhere the generous (hochherzigen) generals of the Revolution. Glory, three times glory, to the Poles." [13] Moreover Poles connected their struggle for national liberation with fight for enfranchisement of peasants and agrarian democracy, the only democracy possible at that time in Eastern Europe, and by doing so they affected in a revolutionary way the entire system of social relations among the nations neighbouring Poland. "The merit of Poles - wrote Engels - "is that they were the first ones who proclaimed the truth about the connection which occurs between independence [of a nation] from external factors and the land reform inside the country."[14] The politics of democratic movements in entire Europe at that time was concentrated on three main goals: liberation and unification of Italy; restoration of free and independent Poland; unification of Germany. Those three goals can be found in the act of the French National Assemply from 23 May 1848 and also in the headline of each number of "Tribune des Peuples" newspaper from Paris. Marx and Engels argued, that liberation and unification of Germany was not possible as long as Prussia and Austria were oppressing the Poles. They maintained, that the emergence of independent and democratic Poland was the first condition to the emergence of democratic Germany. Hence their two demands: that Germany should resign from Polish lands remaining under Prussian rule and to demand - with use of military force if necessary - the return of Polish lands occupied by Russia. Marx and Engels proclaimed a revolutionary war against Russia under the slogal of rebuilding independent Poland. They considered Russia to be the main pillar of the Reaction in Germany and as the ligament of the Reaction in entire Europe. "Between Russia and Germany - wrote Engels - there must be created not some sham of Poland, but a state capable of its own life: independent Poland must cover at least the same territory as before 1772, it must control not only the basins of its major rivers, but also their outlets, and it must posses a significant strip of coastline at least along the Baltic Sea. In the best interest of European democracy an independent Poland - a strong and territorially vast Poland - is absolutely necessary."[15] (...)

[13] "Neue Rheinische Zeitung”, Köln, No 135, 5 November 1848.
[14] "Neue Rheinische Zeitung", No 81, 20 August 1848.
[15] "Neue Rheinische Zeitung", No 81, 20 August 1848."


It seems quite ironic that Communists supported Polish independence - but yeah, at that time they did. It changed later, in 1920 & 1939.

=============================

Check this thread if you want to read more about matters concerning the restoration of Poland after WW1 and the border disputes:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=536835

=============================

Here a thread (in Polish) about "the definition of Polishness in Medieval Poland":

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=113550

Germanization of Piast dukes of Western Pomerania and Silesia, and their subjects (in Polish):

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=94539

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...c=48263&st=105
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Old March 25th, 2015, 10:34 PM   #1768
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Well, nothing else for me to do here than to surrender to the number and quality of your argumentation, sir. I'm not a historian by any means and since you brought up references considered to be legitimate I can only agree to your views.
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Old March 25th, 2015, 10:49 PM   #1769
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Weissenberg,

Really, respect from me! The ability to admit a mistake and that someone else's argument was correct, is rather rare today.

I'm happy that I convinced you.

RS UK-PL,

Quote:
I'm not denying that over centuries majority of Danzg/Gdansk was German-speaking.
Check this book by Bogumił Szady (in Polish):

https://www.academia.edu/6466617/Geo...82owie_XVIII_w

https://www.kul.pl/files/845/pdf/sza...uktur_2010.pdf

On page 161 (165) there is info about the ethnic structure of Danzig before the Partitions.

Szady quotes a German source (Georg Dabinnus, "Die ländliche Bevölkerung Pommerellens im Jahre 1772") and says that this source generally overestimated the percentage of Germans, and underestimated the percentage of Poles. But even according to this source - G. Dabinnus - the city of Gdansk had only 58% of Germans in 1772. However, among the remaining 42% of its population were not only Poles but also Dutch people, Scots, etc.

============================

As for the deportations and expulsions of the 20th century in Poland - here is a good book in English:

Piotr Eberhardt, "Political Migrations On Polish Territories (1939-1950)":

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/15652/WA5...Monografie.pdf

Piotr Eberhardt is a Polish professor of geographic sciences and also a historian:

https://www.igipz.pan.pl/member.html?show=29

The expulsion of Germans after WW2 was a tragedy, but we cannot forget that the series of expulsions started already in 1939:

From page 51 (52) of Piotr Eberhardt's book:

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Old March 25th, 2015, 11:20 PM   #1770
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Vast majority of Germans in Poland before the Partitions were Lutherans.

Here is a map (in English) of temples of various religions in the Crown of Poland in 1772 (by Bogumił Szady):

http://hgis.kul.lublin.pl/azm/pmappe...ml?language=en

This map also shows the ara of Warmia (Ermland), which later became part of East Prussia.

1) Lutheran temples / churches:



2) Roman Catholic temples / churches:



3) Density of Roman Catholic temples*:



*Note: western regions with low density, the Noteć River valley and Tuchola Forests, had Catholic majority, but low population density:



=========================

Bogumił Szady is a Polish historian specializing in historical geography and historical cartography:

http://www.kul.pl/bogumil-szady-ph-d,art_48224.html
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Old March 25th, 2015, 11:50 PM   #1771
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The map of almost 1 million Poles expelled from areas annexed by the III Reich to General Governorship that I posted above, does not include Poles deported to Germany to forced labour, who later returned to Poland after WW2. That number included 1,500,000 Poles according to this link:

http://www.heimatverein-haltern.de/page4_1933_UNRRA.htm

But according to wikipedia even more - 1,600,000 (including 1,400,000 forced labourers):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_...g_World_War_II

Quote:
The liberation of Germany in 1945 freed 11 million foreigners, called "displaced persons" – chiefly forced labourers and POWs. In addition to POWs, the Germans had seized 2.8 million Soviet workers to labour in factories in Germany. Returning them home was a high priority for the Allies. However, in the case of Russians and Ukrainians, returning often meant suspicion, prison, or death. The United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA), Red Cross, and military operations provided food, clothing, shelter, and assistance in returning home. In all, 5.2 million foreign workers and POWs were repatriated to the Soviet Union, 1.6 million to Poland, 1.5 million to France, and 900,000 to Italy, along with 300,000 to 400,000 each to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Hungary, and Belgium.[5]
Here is the map from first link:

http://www.heimatverein-haltern.de/i...Life_Karte.jpg

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Old March 26th, 2015, 12:32 AM   #1772
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Question, is there any data available on the number of ethnic Germans in [what was historically considered] Polish lands in the early 20th century? I believe a lot of ethnic Germans settled not only in the Polish provinces annexed by Prussia and Austria, but also in the regions like Volhynia.

Also, the number of Polish forced laborers in Nazi Germany might be inacurate. I know firsthand that forced laborers from the regions annexed by the USSR were usually given a choice to settle in the country of the forces that liberated the specific area, a distant relative of mine settled in France that way. In other words, there were 1.6 million people who returned to Poland, but there might be thousands who migrated to France, UK, the US or even stayed in postwar Germany.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 05:05 AM   #1773
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Question, is there any data available on the number of ethnic Germans in [what was historically considered] Polish lands in the early 20th century? I believe a lot of ethnic Germans settled not only in the Polish provinces annexed by Prussia and Austria, but also in the regions like Volhynia.
Yes, later I will post some more detailed numerical data.

In the Russian-dependent Congress Kingdom of Poland, Germans started to settle after the Partitions of Poland, when that region was initially Prussian and Austrian (as the map that I will post below shows). It became Congress Poland in 1812-1815, and after that Russia invited even more German settlers to that region (in 1810-1819 ca. 20,000 Germans immigrated to Congress Poland and in 1819-1827 ca. 35,000 more, after 1827 immigration also continued).

Map:

The Partitions in 1772 - 1795: http://www.onionas.pl/sites/default/...owanie0002.jpg
The Congress of Vienna (1815): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...gresspolen.png



Farther east in the Russian Empire - beyond Congress Poland, in regions such as Volhynia and Novorossiya (both parts of Ukraine nowadays), Germans also started to settle in the late 1700s and the early 1800s.

For example in Volhynia German settlers - invited by Russian Tsars (who were at that time ethnically part-German - from Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov dynasty) - started to settle in 1816 (first wave). Later two more waves of German settlers came after 1830 and after 1863-1864 (many of them settled in houses of Poles who got expelled to Siberia for participation in anti-Russian uprisings of 1830-1831 and 1863-1864). After 1870 Russia started to limit the number of German settlers and since 1881 - when Russia adopted Anti-German course in politics - any further German immigration ceased.

As of 1897 the number of Germans in Volhynia was 171,331.

During WW1 in 1915, between 5 July and 15 July, all (or nearly all) Germans from Volhynia were deported by Russians to Siberia. After the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1917, about 2/3 of those previously deported Germans returned. But in 1918 some of them emigrated westward to Germany.

In 1921 census in Polish part of Volhynia (Volhynian Voivodeship) 24,960 people declared German nationality. In 1931 census in Volhynian Voivodeship 46,893 people declared German mother tongue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weissenberg
Also, the number of Polish forced laborers in Nazi Germany might be inacurate. I know firsthand that forced laborers from the regions annexed by the USSR were usually given a choice to settle in the country of the forces that liberated the specific area, a distant relative of mine settled in France that way. In other words, there were 1.6 million people who returned to Poland, but there might be thousands who migrated to France, UK, the US or even stayed in postwar Germany.
You are probably right - according to this map, the number of Polish forced laborers could be even as high as 2,857,000:

http://polmap.pdg.pl/mapy/pol_przesi...a_1939-59.html
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Old March 26th, 2015, 01:07 PM   #1774
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Wow, so Warsaw was initially Prussian? I guess one learns something new everyday.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 02:06 PM   #1775
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Wow, so Warsaw was initially Prussian? I guess one learns something new everyday.
That's correct, Warsaw was annexed by Prussian authorities in the Third Partition of Poland (1795) and remained under occupation until Treaties of Tilsit (1807), when a Polish state called Duchy of Warsaw was established. According to Wikipedia, Greater Poland Uprising (1806) was a decisive factor that allowed the formation of the Duchy of Warsaw and the inclusion of Wielkopolska in the Duchy of Warsaw.

Please see the map of Duchy of Warsaw (from 1811): here. The area of Duchy of Warsaw (155,000 km2) was significantly smaller compared to the area occupied by the Republic of Poland in the 1790s (522,200 km2), and nearly 5 times smaller than Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth before the 1770s (733,000 km2).

I agree that many facts are not so well-known about Central Europe. More forumers such as Domen123 should be providing valuable information about that region.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; March 26th, 2015 at 06:05 PM.
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Old March 26th, 2015, 08:30 PM   #1776
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Wow, I knew that todays Poland after partitions in XVIII was mostly taken by Prussia and Austria but I didn't knew it totally belonged just for these two.
How better developed today Poland would be if there would no Congress Of Vienna decisions regarding Poland...
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Old March 26th, 2015, 09:48 PM   #1777
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There might be no Poland at all
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Old March 26th, 2015, 11:20 PM   #1778
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And I must say that I was surprised to learn that the Russian partition in 1795 - despite not encompassing any part of what is now Poland (except for a piece of land called the Białowieża Forest) still contained even as many as over 2,5 million ethnic Polish population - according to 1990 estimates by a Russian (!) historian, W. M. Kabuzan, whose data is cited by a 2014 book published online by the Central Statistical Office of Poland (link below):



Estimates on ethnic groups on the basis of: W. M. Kabuzan, Narody Rossii v XVIII veke. Czislennost’ i etniczeskii sostav, Moscow 1990, p. 230:



W. M. Kabuzan, Rasprostrenie prawoslawia i drugich konfessii w Rossii w XVIII―naczale XX w. (1719―1917 gg.), Moscow 2008, pp. 51―67, 83―130:



From: http://stat.gov.pl/obszary-tematyczn...bach,12,1.html

So, if we believe Kabuzan's estimates:

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Old March 26th, 2015, 11:30 PM   #1779
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As for Votyaks - what Kabuzan calls Votyaks are probably Udmurts (who include also Votyaks, see below).

A comparison of several minorities in Russia in 1795 and in 2002:

Year 2002 /// Year 1795

Total population - 145,166,731 /// 42,699,500

Tatars - 5,554,601 /// 796,000
Bashkirs - 1,673,389 /// 191,600
Chuvashes - 1,637,094 /// 351,800
Mordvins - 843,350 /// 345,500
Maris - 604,298 /// 145,200
Karelians - 93,344 /// 143,500
Udmurts - 636,906 /// 134,900 *
Kalmyks - 173,996 /// 88,100
Komis - 432,248 /// 52,400

Source for 1795: W. M. Kabuzan, Narody Rossii v XVIII veke. Czislennost’ i etniczeskii sostav, Moscow 1990
Source for 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...a#Merged_table

* Wiki says that in 2002 there were just 28 (twenty eight) Votyaks, but it lists them as part of Udmurts.

=====================

In Russia Karelians (a Finnic ethnic group) were more numerous in 1795 than they are nowadays:

"Genocide in Soviet Karelia: Stalin's Terror and the Finns of Soviet Karelia":

http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article255e.htm

"Carelian Refugees in WW II":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAGT6IQTB4Q
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Old March 27th, 2015, 02:07 PM   #1780
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The renovation project (Kaliningrad/Калининград)







Source

Altes Haus (Amalienau Museum) in Kaliningrad/Калининград



Source


this is renovation of Lenin Avenue























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