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Old March 27th, 2015, 02:19 PM   #1781
cytt
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A very weird mix of ideas based on Tirana, Gdańsk and Skopje
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Old March 27th, 2015, 07:03 PM   #1782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluminat View Post
There might be no Poland at all
It's impossible for us to say if there would be an independent Poland. There's basically too many factors to rule out anything. What if it was Austria who united German states in the 19th century? How would their dependencies react to that? Remember that the 19th century Austrian monarchy ruled over a dozen nations and ethnicities. Would spring of nations actually happen with Austria and Prussia being on the same side of the fence? An Austrian-Prussian bloc would have enough manpower and political leverage to impose whatever language/ethnic policies they would only imagine. The 19th century was such a dynamic time there's no way one could predict how Europe would look like 200 years later had anything played out differently.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 03:31 PM   #1783
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Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
As for Votyaks - what Kabuzan calls Votyaks are probably Udmurts (who include also Votyaks, see below).
Votyaks are the same as Udmurts, not some part of them. Just a dated name (like cheremises for mari, zyrians for komi etc.).
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Old March 31st, 2015, 11:40 PM   #1784
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Originally Posted by Weissenberg View Post
It's impossible for us to say if there would be an independent Poland. There's basically too many factors to rule out anything. What if it was Austria who united German states in the 19th century? How would their dependencies react to that? Remember that the 19th century Austrian monarchy ruled over a dozen nations and ethnicities. Would spring of nations actually happen with Austria and Prussia being on the same side of the fence? An Austrian-Prussian bloc would have enough manpower and political leverage to impose whatever language/ethnic policies they would only imagine. The 19th century was such a dynamic time there's no way one could predict how Europe would look like 200 years later had anything played out differently.
Agree. This is particularly true since for 200+years an independent Poland did not exist, and without a cataclysmic event such as WWI with its awkward and punitive carving up and creation of nations, who can say.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 12:17 AM   #1785
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1795 - 1918 = 123 years
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Old April 1st, 2015, 10:49 AM   #1786
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And even during that time, there were at least a few semi- or autonomous regions within territories of the former Poland administrated by the Poles, where people could enjoy Polish as an official language, preserve history, etc. For example mentioned by me Duchy of Warsaw (1807-1815), Congress Poland (1815-1867), Free City of Krakow (1815-1846), Grand Duchy of Poznan (1815-1831) and Galicia (1867-1918). In other regions there was still enough manpower to organise numerous uprisings against occupiers, e.g. November Uprising (1830-1831; ca.150,000 participants), January Uprising (1863-1865; ca.200,000 participants).

Kings of Poland monuments in Lviv and Krakow (erected in 1898 and 1910)


Adam Mickiewicz monuments in Warsaw (photo taken during the unveiling of a monument in 1898 below) and Poznan (erected in 1859, rebuilt in 1904)




Prime Ministers of the Duchy of Warsaw - link
Duke-Governor of the Grand Duchy of Posen - link
Governing Senate of the Free City of Krakow - link
Sejm Marshals of Galicia - link

Territory occupied by ethnic Poles (map published in 1916)


Administrative divisions in Central Europe, 1916 (click here to enlarge)


Distribution of Polish language nowadays (link)


Please note that territory where Lechitic speakers (link) lived actually shrank over the centuries (link).
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Old April 1st, 2015, 01:35 PM   #1787
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... and rapidly grow after world war II in a pretty unique way. I think that since middle ages especially the area where polish is the absolute predominant and unchallanged language (not only on the landside but also in the cities) has not been larger than today.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 01:55 PM   #1788
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I think that since middle ages especially the area where polish is the absolute predominant and unchallanged language (not only on the landside but also in the cities) has not been larger than today.
Actually, I've checked a few sources and it seems that you're wrong. The area of Polish-speaking majority at the beginning of the 20th century (link) was roughly the same as after 1945 (over 300,000 km2). However, prior to the Partitions of Poland, Polish and other Lechitic languages were even more widespread.

This is approximate extent of Polabian-speaking majority and Sorbian-speaking majority Slavic territories in the 16th century (1500s)...

Source

Other languages, such as German (link) for example have been predominant on a much smaller area for hundreds of years...

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Old April 1st, 2015, 02:40 PM   #1789
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But in centruries, not in 5 years. Quite a different in my opinion.

At that time polish was still a nonliterate language. Which made it quite easy to be replaced.

I think the map used in the german version of the article is more appropriate.



Here it doesn't look like the whole north was "colonized" with "German" like the todays east. "German" was a very plurocentric language but the Saxons were of course able to communicate with their southern and western neighbors. Old saxon died in the early middle ages already, here we talk about 10th century.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 02:52 PM   #1790
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I'm not sure if claims that West Germanic languages prior to the 11th century were mutually intelligible are correct. Anyway, your map also confirms that German language expanded vastly by annexing foreign territories over the centuries.



Sorbian language is closer to Polish than Frisian to German. Polabian languages were even closer to Old Polish before extinction.

"Freeska Landriucht" (Old Frisian, 1480) and "S. Matthaeus Und S. Marcus (...) in die Wendische Sprache" (Sorbian, 1670)


Map of Lusatia (1861)

Source

Quote:
But a person from Bavaria wouldn't had understood a person from the coast. Thats for sure.
Exactly...

While Lechitic speakers from the territory of Poland have definitely understood language of West Slavic tribes from territories between Elbe and Oder rivers. Slavs within today's East Germany have been also closely related biologically to Poles as DNA research suggests.

European Journal of Human Genetics 19 (2011):
Quote:
Despite their geographical proximity to German speakers, the Sorbs showed greatest genetic similarity to Polish and Czech individuals, consistent with the linguistic proximity of Sorbian to other West Slavic languages.
------------------------------------------------------

Wishing you all a very Happy Easter!

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Old April 1st, 2015, 02:57 PM   #1791
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It was a dialect continuum. Like it in most ways still exists (if people speak their dialect instead of high language). But a person from Bavaria wouldn't had understood a person from the coast. Thats for sure.
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 04:02 AM   #1792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pofoka View Post
In memoriam city of Königsberg

The "happy time of peace" in Königsberg


What was the door to behind the gates?
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Old April 3rd, 2015, 11:24 PM   #1793
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I clicked on the photo, which takes you to Pofoka's flickr site, but he has no descriptive caption there. There is a skull, and the brick building behind appears to have a stained glass window. It could be a gated masoleum next to a church wall. But whose? And where in Konigsberg.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 01:13 AM   #1794
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While Lechitic speakers from the territory of Poland have definitely understood language of West Slavic tribes from territories between Elbe and Oder rivers. Slavs within today's East Germany have been also closely related biologically to Poles as DNA research suggests.
How do you know that? You have not a single written word in polish from 10th century. And as I sad, German is and was a pluricentric language. Even today a hardcore bavarian speaker would not understand a dutch or a strong dialect speaking person from northern Germany. This is quite a normal thing for languages spread over a large area.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 01:15 AM   #1795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
This is quite a normal thing for languages spread over a large area.
Except Russian.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 01:45 AM   #1796
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It's more a North-South thing too I heard from many Russians. In pre 1945 German, the language differences from Aachen to Memel were much smaller than from lets say Hamburg to Salzburg.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 04:01 AM   #1797
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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
It's more a North-South thing too I heard from many Russians.
There really aren't any true dialects in Russian. Except for Southern speech that is enriched with Ukrainian words (I also think Pomor might be a dialect but I'm not sure).
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Old April 4th, 2015, 09:57 AM   #1798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
How do you know that?
According to linguists Lechitic languages (including extinct Polabian) are distinguished by the following features:
- Preservation of nasal vowels.
- Development of proto-Slavic ě, e, ęinto a, o, ǫ before hard consonants (or other similar differentiations of these vowels depending on dialect). This gives rise to alternations such as modern Polish lato ("summer", nominative) vs. lecie (locative), pięć("five") vs. piąty ("fifth").
- Vocalization of the syllabic consonants r, r', l', l. Compare modern Polish gardło ("throat") with Czech hrdlo.
- Transposition of or, ol, er, el into roetc. in many words between consonants. Compare Polish mleko"milk".
- Retention of Proto-Slavic *dz as an affricate, rather than a plain fricative z.
- Lack of the g → ɣ transition. Compare Polish góra, Czech hora ("mountain").

Marcin Kromer (1565): wrote that German counties located along the Baltic coast, including Lueneburgian counties and those in the Margraviate of Brandenburg, were still largely inhabited by Slovaks [i.e. Slavs], who spoke "the same language as Poles, but mixed with German language".

Quote:
You have not a single written word in polish from 10th century.
The number of Polish words (410 personal and geographical names) appeared in "Ex commisso nobis a Deo" issued in 1136 (link), however single Lechitic words, place names, personal names, etc. of course are known also from the earlier texts.

And when it comes to earliest written sources about country called "Poland":
"cum Bolizlauo Palaniorum duce" (Sancti Adalberti Pragensis episcopi et martyris vita prior from ca.998-999)

"Polania ergo tanti sepeliens floret martyryii pignora" (Reichanau, ca.1001)
"ignotae linguae Polanorum, invento serniore cui nomen Bolizlao" (Vita quinque fratrum martyrum from ca.1005-1006)
"Miseconis Poleniorum", "Bolizlavus Poleniorum", "Polenia" as a country and "Poleni"/"Polenii" as a name for Poles (Thietmari merseburgiensis episcopi chronicon from ca.1012-1018)

An example of Polish coin minted by Bolesław I Chrobry in ca.1003-1005...

More

Bolesław Chrobry's epitaph...
Quote:
Epitaphium Chabri Boleslai:

1 Hic iacet in tumba princeps generosaa columba

2 Ch[r]abrib tu es dictus sis in evum benedictus
11 Perfido c-patre tu es-c, sed credula matre
3 Fonte sacro lotus servus Domini puta totus
4 Precidens comam septenod tempore, Romam
5 Tu possedisti velut verus adletae Cristi
12 Vicistif terras faciens bellasg quoque guerras

10 Incliteh dux tibi laus, strenue Boleslaus
6 Regni Sclavorum Gottorumi suej Polonorum
7 Cesar precellens a te ducalia pellens
8 Plurima dona sibi que placuere tibi
9 Hinc detulisti quia divicias habuisti
13 Ob famamque bonam tibi contulit Otto coronam

14 Propter luctamen k-sIt tIbI l-saLVs-kl Amen
Boleslaw's father, Mieszko was mentioned in Miracula Sancti Oudalrici (ca.983-993) as "dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine" and in the annals of German Church (992) as "obiit Misica dex Vandalorum". The earliest mentions about Mieszko are from the years 963 and 965, Ibrahim ibn Ya’qub al-Israili wrote "Mashaqu, king of the North", while Widukind of Corvey "Misca (or Missacam) regem, cuius potestatis erant Sclaui, qui dicuntur Licicaviki [name derived probably from duke Lestek, Mieszko's grandfather], duabus vicibus superavit, fratremque ipsius interfecit, predam magnam ab eo extorsi". Mieszko's daughter, Świętosława (Sigríð Storråda) married Eric the Victorious in ca.980.

An example of Mieszko's denar (coins minted since ca.970)


Mieszko's palace in Ostrow Tumski (built after 941)


In "Jordan and Radzim Gaudenty Annales" written since ca.970, we have the following dates:
965 – Dobrouka venit ad Miskonem
966 – Mysko dux baptizatur
967 – Boleslaus Magnus natus est

Quote:
And as I sad, German is and was a pluricentric language. Even today a hardcore bavarian speaker would not understand a dutch or a strong dialect speaking person from northern Germany. This is quite a normal thing for languages spread over a large area.
And earlier, before establishment of the HRE these differences were even more significant, so claiming that Old German language was mutually intelligible with Old Frisian is just wrong. Probably Old German language distribution map from English wiki is more accurate.

Quote:
Slavs within today's East Germany have been also closely related biologically to Poles as DNA research suggests.
Quote:
Despite their geographical proximity to German speakers, the Sorbs showed greatest genetic similarity to Polish and Czech individuals, consistent with the linguistic proximity of Sorbian to other West Slavic languages.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...jhg201165a.pdf

According to more recent study by P.Underhill Sorbs are showing the greatest genetic similarity to the Poles due to the high percentage of subclade R1a-M458 (57%) in their R1a.

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Old April 4th, 2015, 10:20 AM   #1799
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Wishing you all a very Happy Easter!

And a Happy Easter to you as well.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 12:31 PM   #1800
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
And earlier, before establishment of the HRE these differences were even more significant, so claiming that Old German language was mutually intelligible with Old Frisian is just wrong. Probably Old German language distribution map from English wiki is more accurate.
No its not. I said that bordering german dialects were mutually intelligible and due to that formed a coherent Sprachraum. So a frisian could communicate with a Saxon, a southern Saxon with a Speaker of lower Franconian and so on. You are basically trying to tell me, a Pole from lets say todays eastern Masovia would have been able to communicate easily with a Sorb from the Saale. Which I think is rubbish considering the fact that those languages were all just nonliterate and the regions they were spoken much less populated than the areas were old german languages and dialects were spoken back then.
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