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Old April 4th, 2015, 04:23 PM   #1801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
No its not. I said that bordering german dialects were mutually intelligible and due to that formed a coherent Sprachraum. So a frisian could communicate with a Saxon, a southern Saxon with a Speaker of lower Franconian and so on. You are basically trying to tell me, a Pole from lets say todays eastern Masovia would have been able to communicate easily with a Sorb from the Saale. Which I think is rubbish considering the fact that those languages were all just nonliterate and the regions they were spoken much less populated than the areas were old german languages and dialects were spoken back then.
Old High German is classified as a separate language group, while Polabian is in the same Lechitic group, so argue with all the linguists, scholars, and not me. I proved that Polabian languages were closer to Polish, Sorbs are the closest genetic and linguistic ethnic group still existing outside current borders of Poland, while you didn't post anything to prove your point. Please familirise yourself with some linguistic and genetic studies.

Indo-European language tree


According to "Chronica seu originale regum et principum Poloniae" (written in ca.1190-1205) and later chronicles, Poles, Polabian Slavs, Sorbs, Pomeranians descended from the same nation, whose members spoke similar language, ruled by Lech and his successors, until Leszko III divided realm between his sons in the ca.7th-8th century AD. This could explain tremendous language and DNA similarities.

At some point in history, Lechitic and Czech-Slovak tribes could've been ruled by Krok/Krakus, who was mentioned by Czech and Polish chroniclers.

Krakus Mound


West Slavic tribes not only occupied territories in today's East Germany, Central Europe, etc. Some Lechitic tribes such as Vyatichi (modern etymology places the word as a cognate to Veneti and Vandals) and Radimichs are believed to have migrated eastward as well, this theory is being confirmed by genetic studies. The origin of Polans in the Kiev area is unclear, but according to the latest research that territory is characterised by high % of R1a-M458, which is known as West Slavic marker.
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Old April 4th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #1802
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Your proplem is, that you are trying to confer the development of slavic languages on west germanic languages, which won't work. You see that the subdivision at the end is much wider than on the slavic side. Sorbian isn't a lechitic language. So I said that they were not able to communicate with eastern polish speakers 1000years ago.

Quote:
I proved that Polabian languages were closer to Polish, Sorbs are the closest genetic and linguistic ethnic group still existing outside current borders of Poland, while you didn't post anything to prove your point.
My point is pretty simple. The english map of 10th century german totally ignores the internal subdivision and make it look like the low german dialects north of the Benrath line were as foreign as the slavic languages in the east. Complete nonsense. In fact, the term "high" already signals that it is a developed mostly written language apart from the coexisting dialects. A stage lechitic or slavic languages did not even reach at that time.
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Old April 5th, 2015, 09:21 PM   #1803
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Tilsit, Ost Preussen

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Old April 5th, 2015, 09:47 PM   #1804
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Tilsit Ost Preussen













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Old April 6th, 2015, 01:34 PM   #1805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Your proplem is
I'd say "the problem" lies where your understanding of last few pages of this thread is


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Sorbian isn't a lechitic language. So I said that they were not able to communicate with eastern polish speakers 1000years ago.
Is. They were. That was given to you on few occasions in this thread.
Sorbian is the West Slavic language being the lechitic language which means they could communicate freely (which still is possible between languages of this group - really)


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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
My point is pretty simple. The english map of 10th century german totally ignores the internal subdivision and make it look like the low german dialects north of the Benrath line were as foreign as the slavic languages in the east.
So you did find the value of medieval maps
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Old April 6th, 2015, 08:49 PM   #1806
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Insterburg











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Old April 7th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #1807
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Prussian village








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Old April 8th, 2015, 01:46 AM   #1808
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So neglected area.
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Old April 12th, 2015, 10:50 AM   #1809
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In addition to the post #1798, please see excerpts from "Cronicae et gesta ducum sive principum Polonorum" (ca.1113-1116) describing pre-Mieszko rulers...

Quote:
1. About Duke Popiel

There was in the town of Gniezno, which in Slavonic means the same as "nest" a duke by the name of Popiel, who had two sons; according to a pagan custom, he prepared a big feast for the shearing ceremony, to which he invited many notables and friends. And it happened by the mysterious will of God that two guests arrived there, who not only were not invited to the feast but were even unjustly chased away from the entrance to the town. And indignant at the inhumanity of the burghers, they immediately made their way to the outlying area, where purely by accident they arrived in front of a little house belonging to a ploughman of that duke who was giving a feast for his sons. That poor man, full of compassion, invited the strangers to his cottage and as kindly as possible unfolded to them the picture of his poverty. And they accepted with gratitude the invitation of the poor man and entering the hospitable cottage, said to him: "Rejoice indeed that we have come and may our arrival bring to you the abundance of all plenty as well as honor and fame from your progeny."

2. About Piast, son of Chościsko

The inhabitants of the hospitable house were: one Piast, son of Chościsko, and his wife named Rzepka; both from the depths of their hearts tried as they could to satisfy the guests' needs, and seeing their wisdom, they resolved to seek their advice for one confidential project which they had. When they sat down according to custom and talked about various matters, and the strangers asked if they had anything to drink, the hospitable ploughman replied: "I have a small barrel of fermented beer, which I have prepared for the shearing of the only son I have, but what is this little thimbleful good for? Drink it up, if you will." This poor peasant had resolved that during the time when the duke, his master, was having a feast for his sons, he would prepare a somewhat better meal for the shearing of his little boy-as at other time he could not do it on account of his poverty-and invite equally poor friends not to a feast but to a modest meal; so he fattened a piglet which he destined for that occasion. I will tell you about some strange happenings but who can fathom God's ways? Or who will dare to immerse himself in inquiries into God's blessings, who even in this life often elevates the humble poor and does not hesitate to reward hospitality even among the pagans? So the guests calmly told Piast to pour out the beer because they knew well that because of their drinking, no quantity would be lost but rather it would increase. And it was said the beer increased continually, until all the borrowed dishes were filled with it, while the revelers at the duke's feast found their cups empty. They also ordered that the aforementioned piglet be slaughtered, with whose meat-a thing beyond belief-they were said to fill ten buckets, which were called in Slavonic cebry. So Piast and Rzepka, seeing the miracles which took place, sensed in them some important prophecy for their son, and they were just about ready to invite the duke and his companions but they did not dare without asking the travelers about it first. Why delay? So with the advice and encouragement of the guests, their master, the duke, and all his table companions are invited by the serf Piast, and the invited duke did not consider it below his dignity to pay a visit to his peasant. The reason for this was that the Polish dukedom was not that big yet, nor did the duke of the country carry himself with such conceit and pride, nor did he appear so splendidly surrounded by a large retinue of vassals. So when the customary feast was arranged and everything was prepared in abundance, these guests sheared the boy and gave him the name of Siemowit in augury of his future fate.

3. About Duke Samowitaj, called Siemowit, the son of Piast

After all this, a young Siemowit, the son of Piast Chościskowic, grew in strength and years and from day to day he progressed and grew in uprightness to such a degree that the king of kings and duke of dukes, with universal acclaim, appointed him the duke of Poland, and completely removed Popiel with his progeny from the kingdom. Venerable old men also say that Popiel, driven out from the kingdom, suffered so much harassment from mice that he was transported by his attendants to an island, where he was defended for a long time in a wooden tower against those enraged animals which swam by there, until, deserted by everybody because of the deadly stench emanating from the multitudes of slaughtered mice, he died a most shameful death, devoured by those monsters.
But let us leave in peace recollecting the history of the people whose memory disappeared in the oblivion of ages and who were corrupted by errors of idolatry, and having mentioned them only briefly, let us pass to announce those matters which were recorded by faithful memory.
So Siemowit, having reached the position of duke, spent his youth not in pleasures and vain entertainments, but devoting himself to persistent work and knightly service, he gained for himself the fame of uprightness and honorable glory, and he enlarged the frontiers of his dukedom farther than anybody before him. After his death, his son Lestek took his place, who equalled his father in uprightness and courage with his knightly deeds. After Lestek's death came his son Siemomysł, who tripled the memory of his ancestors both by his birth and dignity.

4. About the blindness of Mieszko, son of duke Siemomysł

So this Siemomysł begot a great and famous Mieszko, who was the first to carry this name, and who was blind for seven years after birth. So when the seventh anniversary of his birth came, his father, having called according to custom a meeting of the comites and his other dukes, gave a lavish and joyous feast; and during the repast, he sighed secretly in his heart of hearts over the boy's blindness, not forgetting his pain and shame. And when others enjoyed themselves and clapped their hands according to custom, the joy reached the zenith at the news that the blind boy had regained his vision. But his father did not believe anybody who informed him about it, until the boy's mother, having stood up from the feast, went to the boy and put an end to his father's uncertainty, showing to all revelers that the boy's sight was restored. Then at last the joy became widespread and complete, when the boy recognized those he had never seen before, and in this way the shame of his blindness was changed into unimaginable joy. Thereupon Duke Siemomysł diligently questioned the older and wiser of those present if the boy's blindness and restoration of eyesight did not constitute some miraculous sign. So they explained that the blindness meant that Poland before had acted as if blind but from now on-they prophesied it-was to be enlightened by Mieszko and elevated above neighboring nations. And indeed that was the case, although at that time it could have been understood differently. Indeed Poland had been blind before, knowing neither the reverence of true God, nor any principles of faith, but through the miraculously enlightened Mieszko, it also became enlightened, because when he accepted the faith, the Polish nation was saved from death in paganism. For in a proper order Almighty God first restored to Mieszko his bodily eyesight, and then provided him with spiritual eyesight, so that through the knowledge of visible things he came to know the invisible ones and so that through the knowledge of the things created he could grasp with his eyesight the omnipotence of their creator. But why does a wheel run ahead of the wagon? So in advanced age, Siemomysł departed from this world.

5. How Mieszko took Dąbrówka for his wife

Having assumed power in the dukedom Mieszko began to give proof of his mental and physical powers and more and more frequently to assail neighboring peoples. However, up to that time he was so immersed in the errors of paganism that according to his custom he enjoyed seven wives. At last, he sought in marriage one very good Christian woman from Bohemia, by the name of Dąbrówka. But she refused to marry him unless he abandoned that wicked custom and promised to become a Christian. So when he agreed to abandon that pagan custom and to receive the sacraments of Christian faith, that lady came to Poland with a big retinue of secular and ecclesiastical dignitaries but she did not share the nuptial bed with him until slowly and diligently, getting acquainted with the Christian custom and church laws, he renounced the errors of paganism and turned to the bosom of the church-mother.

6. About the first Bolesław, who was called Famous or Brave

So the first Polish Duke Mieszko attained the grace of baptism at the insistence of his faithful wife; and for his fame and glory it will be enough if we say that, during his times and thanks to him, the heavenly Light visited the Polish kingdom. Because from this blessed woman, he begot the famous Bolesław, who after his death ruled the kingdom manfully and with God's grace grew into such virtue and power that he gilded, so to speak, the whole of Poland with his uprightness. Because who can worthily tell about his courageous deeds and the battles waged against surrounding nations, let alone convey them to posterity in writing? Was it not he who subjugated Moravia and Bohemia and seized the ducal seat in Prague and granted it to his deputies? Was it not he who defeated the Hungarians in battle many times and took under his reign their whole country up to the Danube? He subdued the untamed Saxons with such force that in the middle of their land he drove iron stakes into the River Saale to mark the boundaries of Poland. Anyway, is it necessary to enumerate his victories and triumphs over the infidel peoples, if it is known that he trampled them, so to speak, under his own foot. First, he almost destroyed Selencja, Pomerania and Prussia when they persisted in paganism and then, when they were converted, strengthened them in their faith by establishing many churches and bishops there with the pope's approval, or rather the pope established them through his mediation. It was also he who received Saint Adalbert with great respect and faithfully fulfilled his instructions and dispositions when he came to him after having suffered many wrongs in a long wandering and before that from his own rebellious Czech people. And the holy martyr, burning with the fire of love and with the desire of spreading the faith, when he perceived that the faith in Poland had developed and the holy Church had grown, went without fear to Prussia and there by martyrdom he fulfilled his life. And later, Bolesław bought his body from the Prussians for its weight in gold and placed it with due respect in the metropolitan see in Gniezno.
We also consider it worthy of conveying to posterity that during his times, Emperor Otto the Red came to the grave of Saint Adalbert to pray and to become reconciled, and also to meet the famous Bolesław, as one may read in more detail in the book about the martyrdom of that saint. Bolesław received him as honorably and sumptuously as was appropriate to receive a king, a Roman emperor, and a distinguished guest. He prepared truly admirable wonders for the emperor's arrival; first, he positioned various troops of knights, then the notables, like the choirs, on a sizable plain, and each separately standing unit was differentiated by the various colors of their costumes. And these were not a cheap motley of any decorations but the most precious things that one could find anywhere in the world. During the time of Bolesław, each knight and each lady at the court used, instead of linen or wool cloth, coats of precious fabrics, and they did not wear leather clothes at his court, even very valuable ones, even if new, without a lining of precious fabric and without gold fringes. Gold in his time was so common to everybody as silver is today, and silver was as cheap as straw. Having considered his glory, might, and riches, the Roman emperor exclaimed in admiration: "By my royal crown! What I see is more impressive than I have heard!" And with the advice of his notables he added in everybody's presence: "It is not proper to call such a great man a duke or a count, as if one were among dignitaries, but it is proper to elevate him with glory to the royal throne and to adorn him with the crown." And having taken from his head the imperial diadem, he put it on Bolesław's head as a token of alliance and friendship, and for a triumphal flag he gave him as a gift a nail from the Lord's cross together with the spear of Saint Maur, in return for which Bolesław offered him the arm of Saint Adalbert. And they united themselves in such love on that day that the emperor appointed him brother and collaborator of the empire and called him friend and ally of the Roman nation. Additionally, he conveyed to him and his successors all the power of dispensing church positions in the domain which belonged to the empire in the Polish kingdom and also in other barbarian countries already subjugated by it and in those which it would conquer in the future. The provisions of this agreement were later confirmed by Pope Silvester with the privilege of the Holy Roman Church. So Bolesław, so commendably elevated to the royal throne by the emperor, showed his inborn generosity by arranging during the three days of his consecration truly royal and imperial feasts and by changing every day all the dishes and accessories and setting out new and still more expensive ones. After finishing the feast, he ordered cupbearers and esquire carvers to collect the gold and silver dishes of the three days from all the tables, because there were no wooden cups, chalices, bowls, goblets, or horns, and he offered them to the emperor to honor him, but not as an homage required of the duke. He also ordered the court chamberlans to collect the stretched curtains and table-cloths, carpets, rugs, napkins, towels and whatever was used for covering and also to take all of this down to the chamber occupied by the emperor. And additionally, he brought him many other gifts, namely gold and silver dishes of various kinds of manufacture, and multicolored coats, ornaments unseen up to now, and precious stones; and he offered so much of all of this that the emperor considered all these gifts a miracle. He lavished so many gifts on each duke that from being friendly people they became his greatest friends. Who can count how many and what kind of gifts he gave to his superiors if out of so many servants there not even one left without a gift? So the emperor returned joyfully home with great gifts, and Bolesław, elevated to the royal position, rekindled his old anger against the enemies.
In more recent chronicles, such as "Chronica seu originale regum et principum Poloniae" written between 1190 and 1205, "Chronicon Polono-Silesiacum" written in ca.1278, "Cronica magna Lechitarum et Polonorum" written at the end of the 13th century, "Chronica principum Poloniae" written between 1382 and 1386, "Annales seu cronicae incliti Regni Poloniae" written between 1455 and 1480, etc. you can find information about rulers before duke Popiel who supposedly reigned in the 9th century.

The gatehouse to the castle in Brzeg (1554-1560) with sculptures of the early Piast rulers


Rulers of Poland (according to Italian genealogist Antonio Albizzi, ca.1601)

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Old April 13th, 2015, 03:36 PM   #1810
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Renovation of the castle in Lidzbark Warminski/Heilsberg, Warmia




Reconstructions of Jan Stefan Wydżga's palace and Ignacy Krasicki's gardens were not included as part of this project.





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Old April 13th, 2015, 04:01 PM   #1811
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Reconstruction of the castle in Malbork/Marienburg (1960s)













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Old April 14th, 2015, 04:49 PM   #1812
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Szlakiem rdzennych Mazurów - Ocalić od zapomnienia (19/03/2015, Szczytno/Ortelsburg)






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Old April 15th, 2015, 03:20 AM   #1813
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Tilsit Ost Preussen



Mysterious and haunting. Even the tree is dead. It could be a handsome and attractive building again.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 10:58 AM   #1814
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Reszel/Rößel, Warmia




Olsztyn/Allenstein, Warmia




Elbląg/Elbing (under construction)




Barczewo/Wartenburg, Warmia




Orneta/Wormditt, Warmia



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Old April 15th, 2015, 08:05 PM   #1815
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you can almost see the medieval walls encircling this old towns. btw, your pic of Elblag is a little dated, a fair bit more has been rebuilt.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old April 16th, 2015, 01:56 PM   #1816
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Archcathedral Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Andrew in Frombork/Frauenburg (currently undergoing renovation works), Warmia




















The list of epitaphs and tombstones in Archcathedral Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Andrew in Frombork/Frauenburg:
1. Szymon Rudnicki (†1621)
2. Paweł Górnicki (†1632)
3. Stanisław Bużeński (†1684)
4. Mikołaj Wołowski, Jakub Wołowski and Dorota Ciecholewska (17th century)
5. Jan Zbąski (†1697)
6. Mikołaj Szyszkowski (†1643)
7. Adam Grabowski (†1766)
8. Joachim Pastorius Hirdenberg (†1681)
9. Jan Działyński (17th century)
10. Andreas von Hatten (†1841)
11. Krzysztof Szembek (†1740)
12. Andrzej Łysakowski (17th century)
13. Nicolaus Copernicus (†1543, epitaph from 1735)
14. Jan Zachariasz Szolc (†1682)
15. Tomasz Treter (†1610)
16. Adam Konarski (†1683)
17. Wawrzyniec Demuth (17th century)
18. Maximilian Kaller (†1947)
19. Fabian Emmerich (16th century)
20. Johann Timmerman (15th century)
21. Paweł Płotowski (†1547)
22. Adalbert Liechtenhein
23. Henrik Fleming (†1300)
24. Johan von Essen (†1416)
25. Bartholomäus Boreschow (†1426)
26. Stefan Sadorski (†1640)
27. Łukasz Górnicki (†1651)
28. Jan Chrapicki (†1525)
29. Andrzej Zagórny (†1690)

* There's also an underground crypt with more than 100 preserved coffins.

Adam Konarski (†1683), Kolczyk coat of arms & Andrzej Zagórny (†1690), Rogala coat of arms


Stanisław Bużeński (†1684) & Jan Zachariasz Szolc (†1682)


Tomasz Treter (†1610) & Paweł Górnicki (†1632)


Łukasz Górnicki (†1651), Ogończyk coat of arms & Adam Grabowski (†1766), Zbiświcz coat of arms


Previously posted epitaphs of Szymon Rudnicki (†1621) & Mikołaj Wołowski, Jakub Wołowski and Dorota Ciecholewska (17th century)


The list of altars in Archcathedral Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Andrew in Frombork/Frauenburg:
1. Gothic polyptych (founded by Nicolaus von Tüngen in 1504)
2. Priest of the Warmia Chapter (founded by Mikołaj Szyszkowski and Wojciech Rudnicki in ~1640)
3. St Michael (founded by Wacław Kobierzycki in ~1640)
4. St Anna (founded by Mikołaj Szyszkowski? in 1639)
5. Our Lady of Sorrows (founded by Mikołaj Szyszkowski? in 1640)
6. Assumption of Mary (founded by Eustachy Nenchen in 1642)
7. St Nicholas (founded by Michał Działyński in 1639)
8. St Martin (founded by Jerzy Marquardt in 1645)
9. St Augustine (founded by Wacław Leszczyński? in the 17th century)
10. St Matthew (founded by Fabian Konopacki before 1619, renovated after Swedish invasion by Łukasz Górnicki)
11. St Rosalia (founded by Mikołaj Szyszkowski in 1640)
12. St Thomas (founded by Euchard Zarnhausen in the 17th century)
13. Holy Cross (founded by Andrzej Zagórny in ~1634)
14. St Simon and Jude the Apostle (founded by Szymon Aleksy Treter in 1694)
15. John the Baptist (founded by Stanisław Bużeński in ~1680)
16. St Bartholomew (founded by Mateusz Montanus in 1632)
17. St Lawrence (founded by Jan Stefan Wydźga and Jan Wołowski in ~1679)
18. St Joseph (founded by Teodor Potocki and Jan Jerzy Kunigk in 1713)
19. Holy Cross (founded by Edward Herrmann? in 1909)
20. St George (founded by Jan Zachariasz Szolc in the 17th century)
21. Our Saviour (founded by Krzysztof Szembek in 1740)
22. Main altar (founded by Adam Stanisław Grabowski in 1750)
23. ?

Altars founded by Adam Stanisław Grabowski (project based on one of the altars from Wawel Cathedral in Kraków) and Jan Stefan Wydźga & Jan Wołowski


Altars founded by Szymon Aleksy Treter and Mikołaj Szyszkowski


Previously mentioned altars founded by Michał Działyński, Fabian Konopacki (renovated by Łukasz Górnicki) and Andrzej Zagórny


Choir stalls (founded by Teodor Potocki and Krzysztof Szembek)


St. George Chapel (founded by Lucas Watzenrode?, built in ca.1500; Baroque altar founded by Jan Zachariasz Szolc and Teodor Potocki, on the left Mannerist Stefan Sadorski's epitaph)


Saviour Chapel (founded by Krzysztof Szembek in 1735, during consecration relics of Saint Wojciech, Saint Stanislaus of Szczepanów and Saint Casimir Jagiellon were located here, renovated in 2014)




Pipe organs founded by Michał Radziejowski (built by Daniel Nitrowski)


St. Anne chapel






Polychrome from ca.1507-1519 (recently renovated)


St. Stanislaus canonry (built in ca.1565)


St. Michael canonry (built in the 15th century)


St. Peter canonry (built in 1719)


St. Ignatius canonry (built in the 18th century)


The Old Bishops' palace






King Jan III Sobieski of Poland during Corpus Christi procession (the monstrance held by Michał Radziejowski) in Frombork/Frauenburg (painted in ca.1683-1684) and portrait of Copernicus


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Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 17th, 2015 at 05:06 PM.
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Old April 16th, 2015, 06:55 PM   #1817
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what a shame I missed this town on my last tour of this region. what you have posted is spectacular and should be on any serious traveller's itinerary and on the UNESCO list. Considering that Lower Silesia (Polska Dolina Loary - Polish Loire Valley) is making huge efforts to be added as a region to the UNESCO list, it is high time from just the evidence provided here that this region be added to the UNESCO list.
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ten rząd wstrząsa podstawami naszej państwowości i funkcjonowania społeczeństwa. Natomiast większość społeczeństwa śpi, nie zwraca uwagi, co się dzieje i trzeba je z tego snu obudzić - Piotr S


Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old April 17th, 2015, 12:27 AM   #1818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Archcathedral Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint Andrew in Frombork/Frauenburg (currently undergoing renovation works), Warmia
Absolutely stunning. And so encouraging. One of the best posts I have seen on this forum.
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“In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.”

“The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
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Old April 18th, 2015, 12:54 PM   #1819
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The 18th century boundary pillars between Kingdom of Poland (Warmia) and Kingdom of Prussia (state established in 1701, officially recognised by Polish government in 1764)




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Old April 19th, 2015, 12:48 AM   #1820
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Woooooow...
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