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Old April 19th, 2015, 01:21 PM   #1821
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During German expansion from its original territory (please see the map below) various non-German languages, cultures, states, etc. ceased to exist. They are now largely forgotten due to anti-Slavic sentiment, which was spread since the 18th century when for example allochtonous theory of Slavic origin was first presented by German writer Johann Christoph Jordan, so Pan-Germanists could somehow justify eastward expansion.

Der althochdeutsche Sprachraum, in Anlehnung an: Meineke, Eckhard und Schwerdt, Judith, Einfhrung in das Althochdeutsche, Paderborn/Zrich 2001, S. 209.
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Old April 20th, 2015, 01:56 PM   #1822
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Elbląg/Elbing Museum of Archaeology and History






Gymnasium Elbingense (in the years 1599-1809)










Portrait of Gspr Bekes/Kasper Bekiesz (recently acquired by museum for 60,000 PLN)








Collection of Polish coins (minted in Elbląg/Elbing between 1457 and 1763)







Source: info.elblag.pl
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Old April 21st, 2015, 04:21 PM   #1823
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What if it was Austria who united German states in the 19th century?
Had the result of the Seven Years' War been different, then also Saxony might have stood a chance to unite German states.
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Old April 22nd, 2015, 12:52 PM   #1824
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Marian sanctuary in Stoczek Klasztorny/Springborn (founded by Mikołaj Szyszkowski), Warmia








A garden in Stoczek Klasztorny/Springborn (founded by Teodor Andrzej Potocki), Warmia






Marian sanctuary in Stoczek Klasztorny/Springborn (currently undergoing renovation works), Warmia








Faade before renovation


...and after






A plaque commemorating extension of an existing sanctuary by Teodor Potocki, epitaphs of Stanisław Jzef Potocki, Piława coat of arms (†1721) and Jan Rudnicki, Jastrzębiec coat of arms (†1763)


17th century manuscript, a plaque commemorating liberation from the Swedes by King Władysław IV Vasa of Poland and foundation of the church, Mikołaj Szyszkowski's Ostoja coat of arms
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Old April 22nd, 2015, 06:25 PM   #1825
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Boundary between majority Catholic and Lutheran regions (note the region of Warmia / Ermland in the central part of East Prussia, which was mostly Catholic - that region included also Polish Catholic population in its southern part, especially in counties of Olsztyn/Allenstein and Reszel/Rel):

1) In Prussia and Pomerania:



2) In Silesia and Brandenburg: LINK

In Silesia there were some areas with Catholic Germans, but also a region with Lutheran Poles - areas of Kreuzburg (Kluczbork) and Namslau (Namyslow).

Another map - showing boundary between Polish majority and German majority regions before WW1 (note that with some exceptions - e.g. in southern and north-eastern parts of East Prussia and in southern part of Silesia - it corresponded well with religious Catholic-Lutheran boundary):



This map shows how many people stayed after WW2 - those who stayed were people who were classified as Polish (Germans were deported), but we need to remember that a lot of East Prussian Poles escaped to Germany - together with East Prussian Germans - already in 1944-1945, before the Red Army's onslaught. The map shows % of pre-war locals in East Prussia in 1950, it doesn't include people who came from other former German areas (e.g. if someone from Opole came to Olsztyn, they aren't counted here) and emigrants (e.g. if someone from Olsztyn went to Warsaw, they aren't counted too):



As you can see below, a relatively large part of those Poles who stayed were Catholic Warmiaks and Sztumiaks/Powislans (near the Vistula River), rather than Lutheran Mazurians - the largest number of Mazurians remained in Mrągowo county (German: Kreis Sensburg):

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Old April 22nd, 2015, 07:07 PM   #1826
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Had the result of the Seven Years' War been different, then also Saxony might have stood a chance to unite German states.
At that time (1697 - 1763) Saxony was in personal union with Poland (like Poland had been in personal union with Lithuania between 1385 and 1569), therefore we can talk about one realm, Poland-Saxony or Saxony-Poland, ruled by the Wettin dynasty which had absolute power in Saxony but in Poland got elected by the nobility (which shared power with kings). Had the Wettin's managed to 1) not get their lands devastated in two subsequent wars (Great Northern War which devastated Poland-Lithuania and Seven Years' War which devastated Saxony), 2) reform Polish political system to be able modernize the country and 3) keep the Polish throne, preferably make it hereditary instead of relying on changing moods of nobles to get elected, then the Saxon Wettin dynasty had a potential of becoming more powerful than both the Austrian Habsburgs and the Prussian Hohenzollerns. Poland-Saxony around year 1700:

Legend:

Red - Poland-Saxony
Dark blue - Brandenburg-Prussia
Brown - Denmark
Orange - Sweden
Green - Russia
Purple - Ottoman Empire
Light blue - France
Yellow - Austrian Empire
Maroon - Switzerland
Darker grey - minor German states
Lighter grey - various Italian states
and also Bavaria next to Austria



Saxony was a strong state at that time, it had a population of some 1,400,000 in year 1700 and developed manufacturing of various goods.
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Old April 23rd, 2015, 03:35 PM   #1827
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Protestant Church in Glaznoty/Marienfelde




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Old April 23rd, 2015, 05:11 PM   #1828
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Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Another map - showing boundary between Polish majority and German majority regions before WW1 (note that with some exceptions - e.g. in southern and north-eastern parts of East Prussia and in southern part of Silesia - it corresponded well with religious Catholic-Lutheran boundary):
Something is basically wrong with this map. For example the difference between the real numbers in the Hungarian counties and the colors of this map:



Szepes total: 171.725 (100%) ~2% Polish
Slovakian: 97.077 (56.53%)
German: 38.434 (22,38%)
Hungarian: 18.658 (10,87%)
Rusin: 12.327 (7,18%)
Other: 5629 (3,27%) mostly Goral and Gypsy

Lipt total: 86.906 ~0% Polish
Slovakian: 78.098 (89,86%)
Hungarian: 4365 (5,02%)
German: 2591 (2,98%)
Other: 1593 (1,83%) mostly Gypsy

rva total: 78.745 ~20,4% Polish
Slovakian: 59.096 (75,0%)
Goralian: 16.131 (20,4%)
Hungarian: 2000 (2,5%)
German: 1518 (1,9%)

Trencsn total: 310.437 ~0,2% Polish
Slovakian: 284.770 (91,8%)
Hungarian: 13.204 (4,3%)
German: 9.029 (2,9%)
Other: 3.109 (1%) mostly Gypesies, Czechs and Gorals

source: 1910 census
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Old April 23rd, 2015, 08:47 PM   #1829
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This is my map and this is not the final version so thanks for pointing out any inaccuracies. However, you should note that census data not always accurately resembled the reality of ethnic situation.

I used distinct sources (but all from first two decades of the 20th century) for different regions of my map. In case of these 4 Hungarian counties my source was "Carte de la rpartition de la population polonaise dans ses limites ethnographiques et sur les confins" from 1915 (it gives the following percentages of Poles: 50% for rva, 30% for Szepes, 20% for Lipt and 16% for Trencsn but most of them concentrated in north-eastern part of the county, which is shown by my map, while the rest of the county is not shown).

I suppose that the difference results from the fact that there existed mixed Polish-Slovakian dialects in the borderland, and those people were counted as Poles by Poland, while as Slovaks by Slovakia. As for Gorals - Gorals means simply "Highlanders" and in ethno-linguistic terms they were either Poles, Slovaks or Ruthenians, depending on region and group of Gorals.

=============================

Even today census data is not always accurate - for example Slovakia estimates that Gypsies are 17-18% of the population in Slovakian region of Spis nowadays, however in censuses only 20-25% of all Gypsies declare being Gypsies, and censuses show them as 3-5% of the population.

But of course in modern censuses people are free to declare that they are what they want. While in 1910 census (and other censuses from that period) it was different - those were clerks who were filling in census questionnaires, of course they were supposed to fill them in based on answers of people questioned by them, but in reality clerks often had an agenda (e.g. to count Poles as Slovaks, etc.) and interpreted those answers accordingly.

Plus, as I wrote above, in the Polish-Slovak borderland there existed intermediary dialects (mixed dialects). People who spoke such dialects could be counted either as Poles or as Slovaks, basing on circumstances, depending on time period, and on agendas of those who counted.

Ethnicity is quite a fluent and not unchangeable thing, therefore I won't insist that my map is 100% accurate. No map of this kind can ever be 100% accurate. But thanks again for pointing this out, I will check more sources regarding these 4 counties, especially Slovaks and Poles.

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Old April 23rd, 2015, 09:09 PM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beer and Football
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL
The combination of Poles, Lithuanians, Prussians and Germans (who came to these lands after 13th century) inhabited East Prussia.
But again, the Germans outnumbered the others most everywhere except the Masurian lake district and the rural areas of Memelland.
Depends in which period.

Lithuanians for example were much more numerous in East Prussia in the early 1800s than in the early 1900s.

I have the following data for Lithuanians in East Prussia (number and % of the total population). Data for years 1708 and 1740 are estimates by Klaus-Peter Jurkat, data for 1820 is from a book by Stanisław Plater published in 1825, data from 1825 - 1890 are from Prussian statistics*:

1708 - 143,000 (21,15%)
1740 - 73,500 (12,25%)
1820 - 200,000 (18,52%)
1825 - 139,268 (12,13%)
1837 - 148,301 (11,49%)
1848 - 150,580 (10,26%)
1871 - 139,450 (7,65%)
1878 - 131,415 (6,91%)
1890 - 121,345 (6,19%)

*Data for 1825 and 1837 are quoted from an 1839 book by August Freiherr von Haxthausen (but it seems that he used official statistics).

As you can see Lithuanians fell from 21% in 1708 to 6% in 1890, or if we take just official data then from 12% in 1825 to 6% in 1890 (moreover, data from 1825 and 1837 certainly do not include "Bilinguals" who spoke both Lithuanian and German, data from 1848-1890 probably too).

That was mostly due to Germanization of Lithuanians.

========================

And here Poles in East Prussia during the first half of the 19th century:

1820 - 280,000 (source: S. Plater 1825) --------- 25,93% of the population of East Prussia
1825 - 252,824 (A. Haxthausen 1839) ----------- 22,02% of the population of East Prussia
1837 - 264,559 (A. Haxthausen 1839) ----------- 20,49% of the population of East Prussia

Data from A. Haxthausen does not count Polish-German "Bilinguals" as Poles (it counts them as Germans, apparently).

And it also seems that Haxthausen's data underestimates / undercounts the number of Poles and Lithuanians. Why do I think so? Because according to him some counties were 100% (not 99%, not 98%, etc., but full 100%!) German, which seems to be extremely improbable.

Here is the breakdown by county according to Haxthausen's 1839 book (data for year 1825):

Regierungs-Bezirk Gumbinnen:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Johannisburg - 2146 / 28552 / -
Kreis Lyck - 3296 / 26144 / -
Kreis Sensburg - 3769 / 22391 / 5
Kreis Ltzen - 2959 / 18449 / -
Kreis Oletzko - 4734 / 18828 / 22
Kreis Angerburg - 11756 / 12535 / 60

Kreis Goldapp - 17412 / 3940 / 3559

Kreis Stallupnen - 20430 / 356 / 5435
Kreis Darkehmen - 20373 / 485 / 2992

Kreis Gumbinnen - 33651 / 19 / 254

Kreis Heydekrug - 6446 / - / 16502
Kreis Niederung - 18711 / 291 / 18336
Kreis Tilsit - 19283 / 660 / 18057
Kreis Ragnit - 17140 / 192 / 15522
Kreis Pillkallen - 17032 / - / 11271
Kreis Insterburg - 30393 / - / 10108

Regierungs-Bezirk Knigsberg:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Ortelsburg - 3100 / 34928 / -
Kreis Neidenburg - 2149 / 27467 / 1
Kreis Allenstein - 4927 / 25530 / -
Kreis Osterode - 8920 / 22552 / -

Kreis Rel - 23927 / 6778 / -
Kreis Rastenburg - 28034 / 1744 / -

Kreis Memel - 16440 / 27 / 24196
Kreis Labiau - 25182 / 43 / 12948

Counties 100% German according to Haxthausen (which is highly improbable - there certainly were at least hundreds of Non-Germans there):

Kreis Mohrungen - 34473 / 883 / -
Kreis Pr. Eylau - 33937 / 27 / 2
Kreis Heilsberg - 36502 / 3 / -
Kreis Braunsberg - 35354 / - / -
Kreis Fischhausen - 30517 / - / -
Kreis Gerdauen - 25882 / - / -
Kreis Heiligenbeil - 27272 / - / -
Kreis Knigsberg Land - 32104 / - / -
Kreis Knigsberg Stadt - 64692 / - / -
Kreis Wehlau - 33250 / - / -
Kreis Friedland - 29844 / - / -
Kreis Pr. Holland - 29885 / - / -

The only way to explain this is either that 1) Haxthausen's data underestimates Non-Germans or 2) all "Bilinguals" are counted as Germans.

Although it is possible that all 64692 inhabitants of Knigsberg knew German, it is impossible that all of them spoke it as their native language. There were certainly many "Bilinguals" in Knigsberg, as well as many people whose native language was not German but they learned German later.
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Old April 23rd, 2015, 09:45 PM   #1831
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According to Stanisław Plater's 1825 book, in 1820 the following counties of East Prussia had Lithuanian majority:

Gumbinnen
Insterburg
Niederung
Heydekrug
Tilsit
Ragnit
Goldap
Darkehmen
Stallupnen
Memel
Labiau

While according to Haxthausen's 1839 book, percent of Lithuanians (not counting "Bilinguals") in those counties in 1825 was:

Gumbinnen - 0,7% (?!) - allegedly only 254 Lithuanians
Insterburg - 25%
Niederung - 49%
Heydekrug - 72%
Tilsit - 47,5%
Ragnit - 47,2%
Goldap - 14,3%
Darkehmen - 12,5%
Stallupnen - 21%
Memel - 59,5%
Labiau - 34%

On the other hand, Plater did not mention Kreis Pillkallen (which was 40% Lithuanian in 1825 according to Haxthausen).

==================
==================

Coming back to Poles in Hungarian counties:

Quote:
Trencsn total: 310.437 ~0,2% Polish
Slovakian: 284.770 (91,8%)
Hungarian: 13.204 (4,3%)
German: 9.029 (2,9%)
Other: 3.109 (1%) mostly Gypesies, Czechs and Gorals

source: 1910 census
The census obviously counted Poles as Slovaks and Others.

According to Czech scholars - Sembera and Pastrnek - in year 1900 there were around 33,700 Poles in 13 towns and villages of the Csaca District in northern part of the Trencsn county. In addition to this, there were around 2,300 Poles in the city of Csaca itself.

So in total in 1900 there were 36,000 Poles in the Csaca District of the Trencsn county. Those 13 Polish settlements were:

Turzwka (Turzovka)
Rakowa (Rakov)
Wysoka nad Kisucą (Vysok nad Kysucou)
Makw (Makov)
Oleśna (Olešn)
Oszczadnica (csad)
Podwysokie
Staszkw (Staškov)
Zakopcze (Zkopcse)
Świerczynowiec (Svrčinovec)
Czerne (Cserne)
Skalite (Skalit)
Horzelica

Quote:
rva total: 78.745 ~20,4% Polish
Slovakian: 59.096 (75,0%)
Goralian: 16.131 (20,4%)
Hungarian: 2000 (2,5%)
German: 1518 (1,9%)
The same as above, apparently many Poles were counted as "Goralian" and / or as "Slovaks".

According to Czech scholars Sembera and Polivka, in 1900 there were around 30,600 Poles in 23 settlements of northern part of the rva county as well as around 2500 Poles in two other towns, and some number of Poles in other villages. In total around 34,000 Poles in Upper Orava in 1900.

I have names of these 23 settlements if you want.

Quote:
Szepes total: 171.725 (100%) ~2% Polish
Slovakian: 97.077 (56.53%)
German: 38.434 (22,38%)
Hungarian: 18.658 (10,87%)
Rusin: 12.327 (7,18%)
Other: 5629 (3,27%) mostly Goral and Gypsy
Once again the same as above - number of Poles was undercounted in this data.

According to Czech scholar Sembera and Slovakian scholars Misika and Czambela, there were (in year 1900) at least 30,300 Poles in 50 villages (listed by name and by population size) in northern half of the Szepes county. Those 50 villages were almost fully Polish-inhabited. In addition to those 50 villages in a large number of other mixed German-Polish and Rusyn-Polish towns and villages Poles were around 50% of inhabitants and numbered at least 10,000.

So in total there were at least 40,000 Poles in northern part of the Szepes county in year 1900.

Quote:
Lipt total: 86.906 ~0% Polish
Slovakian: 78.098 (89,86%)
Hungarian: 4365 (5,02%)
German: 2591 (2,98%)
Other: 1593 (1,83%) mostly Gypsy
According to Czech scholars Sembera and Niederle, there were 10 almost fully Polish settlements in Lipt county. They numbered in total almost 10,000 Poles in year 1900. In addition to that, there could also be some Polish individuals dispersed in other settlements.

So certainly not 0% Polish.

==============================================

According to a 1919 Polish publication "Spisz, Orawa i okręg czadecki", there were at least ("conservative estimates") 180,000 Poles in Hungary, and at least 130,000 of them were concentrated in the territories of Polish settlement in Spis, Orava and Cadca (Csaca) District.

============================

According to Czech scholar Alois Votjech Sembera, "Mnoho-li jest Cechu, Moravanu a Slovaku a kde obyvaji", Vienna 1876, population of the Cadca district in Trencsn county at that time was 31,251 of whom 23,946 (77%) were Poles - but Sembera did not include population of villages Zakopcze, Makw and Wysoka, which were overwhelmingly Polish - if including also them, around 92% of the population were Poles. Czech scholar Frantisek Pastrenk in "O nareci polskem v horni stolici Trencinske” confirmed ethnic Polish character of that region. Roman Zawiliński who researched the Cadca District in years 1893-98 (travelling from village to village) confirmed Polishness of local inhabitants. In his book "Przyczynek do etnografii grali polskich w Węgrzech" published in 1910 he estimated the number of Poles in that region as 36,000 out of the total population of 40,038. Grzegorz Smlski who researched that region in 1903-1912 estimated the number of Poles as 36,000. Edmund Kołodziejczyk in "Ludność polska na Węgrzech" (1910) estimated that in 1900 there were 33,396 Poles (excluding the village of Zakopcze) out of 38,313 people, so 87% and 50% in the town of Cadca. Marek Skawiński included the village Zakopcze as well and arrived at 35,476 - 35,640 Poles, who were 93% of the total population. Mieczysław Orłowicz in 1913 estimated total population of Cadca Land as 50,318 including 47,000 (93%) Poles.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 11:18 AM   #1832
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Quote:
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(...)
Slavic settlements, strongholds, etc. in the region

(...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The largest Prussian settlement near the Slavic-Prussian border was port of trade called Truso (described by Wulfstan of Hedeby in ca.880), the settlement with an area of over 10 ha.

Truso reconstruction




Wulfstan's voyage (ca.880)


All ports between 21 (Starigard, now Oldenburg in Holstein) and 11 (Gdańsk) belonged to West Slavs (Weonodland), while 10 was Prussian Truso, 9 Tuwangste and 8 Wiskiauten.
Prussian tribes before Teutonic Knights' conquest (map prepared in 1584)



*Click on the maps above to enlarge

Prussian-Slavic borderlands

Vandalus/Vistula (West) and Osa (South) rivers were separating Prussians from their West Slavic neighbours. Names such as Grodeck/Grdek, Mockra/Mokre, Rogeusno/Rogźno, etc. are clearly of Slavic, while Quedin/Kwidzyn of Prussian origin.

"Kurtze vnd warhafftige Beschreibung des Landes zu Preussen" (1584) - LINK
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Old April 24th, 2015, 02:06 PM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
This is my map and this is not the final version so thanks for pointing out any inaccuracies. However, you should note that census data not always accurately resembled the reality of ethnic situation.

I used distinct sources (but all from first two decades of the 20th century) for different regions of my map. In case of these 4 Hungarian counties my source was "Carte de la rpartition de la population polonaise dans ses limites ethnographiques et sur les confins" from 1915 (it gives the following percentages of Poles: 50% for rva, 30% for Szepes, 20% for Lipt and 16% for Trencsn but most of them concentrated in north-eastern part of the county, which is shown by my map, while the rest of the county is not shown).

I suppose that the difference results from the fact that there existed mixed Polish-Slovakian dialects in the borderland, and those people were counted as Poles by Poland, while as Slovaks by Slovakia. As for Gorals - Gorals means simply "Highlanders" and in ethno-linguistic terms they were either Poles, Slovaks or Ruthenians, depending on region and group of Gorals.

=============================

Even today census data is not always accurate - for example Slovakia estimates that Gypsies are 17-18% of the population in Slovakian region of Spis nowadays, however in censuses only 20-25% of all Gypsies declare being Gypsies, and censuses show them as 3-5% of the population.

But of course in modern censuses people are free to declare that they are what they want. While in 1910 census (and other censuses from that period) it was different - those were clerks who were filling in census questionnaires, of course they were supposed to fill them in based on answers of people questioned by them, but in reality clerks often had an agenda (e.g. to count Poles as Slovaks, etc.) and interpreted those answers accordingly.

Plus, as I wrote above, in the Polish-Slovak borderland there existed intermediary dialects (mixed dialects). People who spoke such dialects could be counted either as Poles or as Slovaks, basing on circumstances, depending on time period, and on agendas of those who counted.

Ethnicity is quite a fluent and not unchangeable thing, therefore I won't insist that my map is 100% accurate. No map of this kind can ever be 100% accurate. But thanks again for pointing this out, I will check more sources regarding these 4 counties, especially Slovaks and Poles.
Interesting theory, but the Hungarian censuses based on the mother tongue (Goral = Polish mother tongue) and increasing the Slovaks' number was not our interest and the ethnic relations of the northern periphery were irrelevant for us.

ps. The state officials counted the folk in Hungary and not clercs, since the fundamental data were the economic situation of the citizens and not their ethnical or religious relations. And these are the facts, these peoples claimed this about themselves. Since this was the base, the own acknowledgement was the basis of the counting. The Polishs do not exist without the Polish language and ethnic consciousness.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 11:13 PM   #1834
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State official = clerk (these are synonyms, AFAIK).

Quote:
but the Hungarian censuses based on the mother tongue (Goral = Polish mother tongue)
As you wrote, the 1910 census was based on mother tongue, not on identity. However, in this case it was based on perceptions of mother tongue, rather than reality (Polish and Slovak languages are similar, especially for a Non-Slavic clerk who is not familiar with Slavic linguistics).

Moreover, all expert ethnographers and linguists (such as the ones which I mentioned) claimed that those people spoke dialects of Polish language, not dialects of Slovak language - and sorry but we should rather trust expert scholars (linguists and ethnographers), not Hungarian clerks.

Moreover - do you know the history of settlement of those regions? For example the Cadca region was only sparsely populated or even uninhabited until the end of the Middle Ages, and was colonized by Polish settlers (who came there from the north) during the 16th - 17th centuries.

All scholars which I cited confirmed that those people were still Poles (i.e. did not become Slovakized) by year 1900.

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and increasing the Slovaks' number was not our interest and the ethnic relations of the northern periphery were irrelevant for us.
Yes, I agree that from Hungarian perspective it was probably no different whether those regions were inhabited by Slovaks or by Poles. I suppose that it was lack of familiarity with Slavic ethnic groups and Slavic languages which made Hungarian state officials count those people as "Slovaks".

Another possibility is that state officials responsible for the census in that region were not ethnically Hungarian, but Slovak and / or German.

In those cases it could be possible that they (for example Slovak nationalists working as state officials) deliberately counted Poles as Slovaks.

Quote:
ethnic consciousness.
I think that Polish people had - on average - stronger ethnic consciousness than Slovak people, during the 19th century.

Slovaks after all did not have a history of having their own country, for centuries they were just "Slavic-speaking northern Hungarians". Slovakia was part of Hungary nearly all the time since the mid-11th century (and before that it was for a brief period of time part of Poland).

Poland ruled Slovakia in period 1003 - 1029 (the ending date of Polish rule is disputed, but between ca. 1025 and 1031).

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Old April 24th, 2015, 11:50 PM   #1835
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL
Slavic settlements, strongholds, etc. in the region
In the Early Middle Ages the entire southern Baltic Sea coast from Wendtdorf (approximate location: 5425′N 100′E) in Kreis Pln, in Holstein:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendtorf

All the way to Lipa (other names: Liep, Kahlberg, Krynica Morska; location: 5422′57″N 1926′40″E) in the middle of the Vistula Lagoon, Poland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krynica_Morska

Was inhabited by Slavic-speakers. Wendtdorf was located in Wagria (Wagrien), inhabited by the north-westernmost of Slavic tribes: the Wagrians.

Islands located near the Baltic coast from Wendtdorf to Lipa - such as Fehmarn, Rgen, Usedom and Wolin - were also predominantly Slavic. Although Lipa (Krynica Morska) was Slavic, the opposite southern bank of the Vistula Lagoon - area near Elbląg (other names: Truso, Elbing) - was Baltic Prussian.
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Old April 25th, 2015, 12:05 AM   #1836
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Wulfstan's voyage (ca.880)


All ports between 21 (Starigard, now Oldenburg in Holstein) and 11 (Gdańsk) belonged to West Slavs (Weonodland), while 10 was Prussian Truso, 9 Tuwangste and 8 Wiskiauten.
Indeed, if we count towns with ports then West Slavs extended from Starigard to Gdansk.

But if we add also chunks of coastline without ports, then West Slavic coast was from village Wendtorf to village Lipa:



German name Wendtorf comes from the word Wends (Wenden), which was German name for West Slavic peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends

"Weonodland" of course comes from the same term (land of West Slavs - in this case coast of West Slavs).
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Old April 25th, 2015, 10:45 PM   #1837
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Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Indeed, if we count towns with ports then West Slavs extended from Starigard to Gdansk.

But if we add also chunks of coastline without ports, then West Slavic coast was from village Wendtorf to village Lipa(...)
The historic settlement areas in present-day Schleswig-Holstein


Limes Saxoniae


Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
German name Wendtorf comes from the word Wends (Wenden), which was German name for West Slavic peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends

"Weonodland" of course comes from the same term (land of West Slavs - in this case coast of West Slavs).
That's correct.

The Peutinger Map from the ca. 4th century AD

* Click on the map to enlarge

"ab ortu Vistulae fluminis per inmensa spatia Venetharum natio populosa consedit, quorum nomina licet nunc per varias familias et loca mutentur, principaliter tamen Sclaveni et Antes nominantur." - Getica (ca. 551)

"Interea cogitatio in mentem ruit, ut Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur terminos adiret caecasque mentes euangelica luce lustraret ac ab origine per avia oberrantibus veritatis viam panderet." - Vitae Columbani (ca. 639-643)

"Anno 40, regni Chlothariae homo nomen Samo natione Francos de pago Senomago plures secum neutiantes adcivit, exercendum negucium in Sclavos coinomento Winedos perrexit (...)" & "Eo anno Slav coinomento Winidi in regno Samone neguciantes Francorum cum plure multetudine interfecissent et rebus expoliassint, haec fuit inicium scandali inter Dagobertum et Samonem regem Sclavinorum" - Historia Francorum (ca. 640s)

"Wulfstan sde t he gefore of Hum; t he wre on Truso on syfan dagum and nihtum; t t scip ws ealne weg yrnende under segle. Weonoland him ws on steorbord, and on bcbord him ws Langaland, and Lland, and Falster, and Sconeg; and as land eall hyra to Denemearcan. “And onne Burgendaland ws us on bcbord, and a habba him sylf cyning. onne fter Burgendalande wron us as land, a synd hatene rest Blecingaeg, and Meore, and Eowland, and Gotland on bcbord; and as land hyra to Sweon. And Weonodland ws us ealne weg on steorbord o Wislemuan.”

Seo Wisle is swye mycel ea, and hio toli Witland and Weonodland; and t Witland belimpe to Estum; and seo Wisle li ut of Weonodlande, and li in Estmere; and se Estmere is huru fiftene mila brad.

onne cyme Ilfing eastan in Estmere of m mere e Truso stande in stae, and cuma ut samod in Estmere, Ilfing eastan of Estlande, and Wisle suan of Winodlande, and onne benim Wisle Ilfing hire naman, and lige of m mere west and nor on s; for y hit man ht Wislemua.

t Estland is swye mycel, and r bi swye manig burh, and on lcere byrig bi cynincg. And r bi swye mycel hunig and fisca; and se cyning and a ricostan men drinca myran meolc, and a unspedigan and a eowan drinca medo. r bi swye mycel gewinn betweonan him. And ne bi r nnig ealo gebrowen mid Estum, ac r bi medo genoh.

And r is mid Estum eaw, onne r bi man dead, t he li inne unforbrned mid his magum and freondum mona, ge hwilum twegen; and a kyningas, and a ore heahungene men, swa micle lencg swa hi maran speda habba, hwilum healf gear t hi beo unforbrned, and licga bufan eoran on hyra husum.

And ealle a hwile e t lic bi inne, r sceal beon gedrync and plega, o one dg e hi hine forbrna.

onne y ylcan dg e hi hine to m ade beran wylla, onne todla hi his feoh, t r to lafe bi fter m gedrynce and m plegan, on fif oe syx, hwylum on ma, swa swa s feos andefn bi. Alecga hit onne forhwga on anre mile one mstan dl fram m tune, onne oerne, onne ne riddan, oe hyt eall aled bi on re anre mile; and sceall beon se lsta dl nyhst m tune e se deada man on li.

onne sceolon beon gesamnode ealle a menn e swyftoste hors habba on m lande, forhwga on fif milum oe on syx milum fram m feo. onne rna hy ealle toweard m feo; onne cyme se man se t swiftoste hors hafa to m restan dle and to m mstan, and swa lc fter orum, o hit bi eall genumen; and se nim one lstan dl se nyhst m tune t feoh gerne.

And onne ride lc hys weges mid an feo, and hyt motan habban eall; and for y r beo a swiftan hors ungefoge dyre.

And onne hys gestreon beo us eall aspended, onne byr man hine ut, and forbrne mid his wpnum and hrgle. And swiost ealle hys speda hy forspenda mid an langan legere s deadan mannes inne, and s e hy be m wegum alecga, e a fremdan to rna, and nima.

And t is mid Estum eaw t r sceal lces geeodes man beon forbrned; and gyf ar man an ban finde unforbrned, hi hit sceolan miclum gebetan.

And r is mid Estum an mg t hi magon cyle gewyrcan; and y r licga a deadan men swa lange and ne fulia, t hy wyrca one cyle hine on. And eah man asette twegen ftels full eala oe wteres, hy gedo t oer bi oferfroren, sam hit sy sumor sam winter."
- Wulfstan's voyage (ca.880)
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Old April 26th, 2015, 06:18 AM   #1838
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Prussian tribes before Teutonic Knights' conquest (map prepared in 1584)

This is a marvelous map.
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The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 11:19 AM   #1839
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Ethnoarchaeological Park Amalang (early Medieval Prussian settlement constructed in Olsztynek/Hohenstein, the project has not been completed yet)





Source

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Old April 28th, 2015, 10:56 PM   #1840
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Prussian-Slavic borderlands

Vandalus/Vistula (West) and Osa (South) rivers were separating Prussians from their West Slavic neighbours. Names such as Grodeck/Grdek, Mockra/Mokre, Rogeusno/Rogźno, etc. are clearly of Slavic, while Quedin/Kwidzyn of Prussian origin.
Thats not so clear about borders between Prussians and Slavs. For example you can see on this maps Lobau region, (in polish Ziemia Lubawska) that was ethnographical borderland. In early medieval period there were Salvs, later pushed to south-west by Prussians. From that time we have prussian villages names like Sugajenko, Sugajno, Sampława or Jeglia (in local dialect, gwara lubawska, jegla means świerk, spruce). When crussiaders came on this land in XIV century there were slavic villages and probably few catholic churches. Also we have dozen archeological settlements with mixed ethno history.

Im writing this not only to get more knowledge but also to renember that history of regions, especially so mixed and compicated like Prussia, dont lies in genotypical maps from internet, fantasies of recent and actual states or, thats the worst, generalisations. It lies in small churches in lost villages, storytellings of autochtons or settlers and collage of many points of view. So please, dont write here about blood groups and XIX century cenzus manipulations couse its boring and giving nothing to this, fantastic in many places, topic.



Village where is this church is enourmosly interesting. Glaznoty (deutsch: Marienfelde) lies about one kilometer from former border between Royal Prussia - Duchy of Prussia / West Prussia - East Prussia / Poland - Germany. Church from the picture build as catholic by Teutonic Order became protestant (now is methodist becouse of quite strong position of this religion in region of Ostrda) but people was polish orgins and use dialect close to their western neighbours from bishopic land of Lubawa. In second part of XIX century cooperative bank from Lubawa (Poles made them to fight with germanisation and economic discrimination), enough rich becouse of ethnic composition of region (district of Lubawa (landkreis Lobau) had really big number of Poles in good economic shape - Germans lived only in towns of Nowe Miasto, Lubawa and few german colonies) started to settle polish people on "evangelistic lands". Becouse of rise of catholics in Glaznoty theyre build in 1904 second, catholic chaptel. This is why older church stay in really bad shape by nearly 60 years - people had another place to pray. Now its rebuilded and also had quite rare Masurian cementary on church ground.

Catholic church:



Methodist church before renovation:


In that village is also cute train viaduct from old line between Samborowo and Turza Wielka (its another fantastic story showing difficult history of region):


I recommended subregion of Wzgrza Dylewskie (Dylewskie Hills): there are beautiful places from former East Prussia (mansions, aleys), autochtons from Lubawskie region and landscapes sometimes called "small Bieszczady"). This is my view on history and regionalism - hope you like it. Greetings.
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