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Old July 24th, 2015, 11:09 AM   #1941
Domen123
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If someone speaks exclusively German as mother tongue, then he/she is ethnically German. That said, there are such ethnic Germans whose national identity is German, such ethnic Germans whose national identity is Austrian, such ethnic Germans whose national identity is Swiss, French, Polish, etc., etc.
However, in France ethnic Germans are succumbing to assimilation and becoming ethnic French.

Knowledge of local German dialect in Alsace has almost disappeared by now among the young generations. A generational divide can be observed in regard to the knowledge of German, which is high in older Alsatians, and low in young ones. Here some numbers on the knowledge of the German dialect the Alsatian Germans traditionally speak. First, the overall proportion of the population that speaks the dialect over the last century:

1900: 95%
1946: 91%
1997: 63%
2001: 61%
2012: 43%

But the true nature of the process is revealed by looking at the generational divide. Percentage of German-speakers broken down to age groups (2012):

74% (aged 60+)
54% (aged 45-59)
24% (aged 30-44)
12% (aged 18-29)
3% (aged 3-17)

So, 74% of the generation of the grandparents speak the dialect, and only 3% of their own grandchildren.

Source (in French):

http://www.olcalsace.org/fr/observer...te-en-chiffres
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Old July 25th, 2015, 04:43 PM   #1942
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Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Mruczek,
But "not long time ago" = when exactly?
IIRC it was only in 1967-68, when the number of Poles living in the cities surpassed these living in the villages.

Not much though: merely 61-62% of Poles lives in the cities now. Before the WWII it was approx. 30% (and approximately the same and Masurians at that time). In mid 19th century - approx. 20%. We're still one of the most rural nations in Europe with quite tragical consequences for economic growth and social modernisation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
When Poland was partitioned between Russia, Austria and Prussia, Poles were the 6th most urbanized ethnic group of the Russian Empire.

Poles were among the top 7 most urbanized ethnic groups of the Empire (alongside Jews, Tajiks, Germans, Armenians, Sarts and Greeks).
Hahahaha

If you'd stop treating interlocutors as morons, the discussion will be easier. First of all, even as urbanised group, most of Poles still lived in villages (in former Russia: 70-30, frankly speaking quite similar fraction as Masurians at that time). Secondly, Russia was complete backwatertown of Europe (if we can call it Europe in the first place). By using this example you're really not helping to prove your point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Not from agricultural field, though, but from 'open space' (as in English term 'battlefield', for example).
Even if, you won't find too much "open space" in the centre of Warsaw, and still nobody claims it ceased to be Polish city because there is not so much "open space", because "open space" = pole = Polanie = Polacy (Poles). It's just a name. Apparently you are the only one who cares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Who says so? I wrote that ethnicity is based on language and culture, not on genetic roots.
Well, apparently Masurian culture failed to recognise that they are Poles. Perhaps that had something to do that their mother-state left them behind for 400 years, didn't care for them, didn't even try to understand them (which is visible when one reads our propaganda for 1920 Plebiscite) and expected loyalty afterwards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
If someone speaks exclusively German as mother tongue, then he/she is ethnically German. That said, there are such ethnic Germans whose national identity is German, such ethnic Germans whose national identity is Austrian, such ethnic Germans whose national identity is Swiss, French, Polish, etc., etc.

I apply the same standards to Masurians, as I apply to Germans. I don't claim, that Germans in Austria are not ethnic Germans.

There is definitely Austrian nation, but is there Austrian ethnicity? Rather no. There is also no Belgian ethnicity, for example.
[/IMG]
Well, the fact that Masurians were of Polish ethnicity didn't prevent them from leaving Poland, usually with quite dramatic circumstances, leaving it behind and in most cases not wanting to have anything to do with Poland.

I thing it's interesting phenomenon, much more interesting than 2 millions of Poles who left Poland in 1980s, when Jaruzelski's regime liberated migrating regime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Most of dialects of Polish ceased to exist, with the introduction of public education in Standard Polish (Hoch Polnisch / High Polish).


Frankly speaking I can't believe that anybody, who at least once visited Katowice (not to mention some Silesian backwatertown) can claim such nonsense in the serious forum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialects_of_Polish

And this is barely the surface. You can still see differences in number of borrowed words, depending on part of Poland. Dialekt małopolski in former Russia and dialekt małopolski in former Austria are similar when it comes to pronounciation, but there are slight differences in syntax and wording.

Although I admit, the differences are much smaller than in Germany, France or UK (even in its English part).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
And no - they did not speak a specific dialect. They spoke Mazovian dialect, exactly the same as spoken by people in Mazovia.


To begin with, Masurian dialect was separated from mainstream of Polish language for 4 centuries. It was changing much slower than standard Polish, because it remained the language of backwater (people who went up the social ladder switched the language to German gradually and left the area, sooner or later). Especially syntax remained very conservative and word stressing at the beginning of the sentence reminds more of Jan Kochanowski's poetry than contemporary Masovian dialect. Add to that lots of Biblical wording (for many years the Bible used to be the only book Masurians ever read - on the other hand they were able at least to read one Book, contrary to Masovians, who were mostly illiterate) and even more German borrowed words.

Well, the thesis that Masovian and Masurian are identical... They're common of course and come from the same roots, but identical? No, it's laughable.

Although, while reading your posts I am more and more suspicious that you have never seen and, more important, heard any Masurian. That would help a lot.
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Last edited by Mruczek; July 25th, 2015 at 04:52 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 12:26 AM   #1943
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Mruczek,

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Not much though: merely 61-62% of Poles lives in the cities now.
(...)
We're still one of the most rural nations in Europe with
In 1991 around 62% of people in Poland lived in cities. Since then this percent is declining, because people from cities move to the countryside. It doesn't mean, that they are becoming farmers again, though... They live in the countryside, but work in cities.

Number of people employed in agriculture has actually declined by 50% since year 2000 until year 2008.

In 2008 only around 16% of the population lived from agriculture, even though a much higher percent lived outside of cities:

"(...) Ludność pracująca w rolnictwie, łowiectwie i leśnictwie w 2008 roku to 2138,4 tysięcy osób, w tym w samym rolnictwie: 2089,4 tysięcy. Od roku 2000 liczba ta zmalała dwukrotnie. Rolnictwo w Polsce zatrudnia prawie 16% ogółu osób pracujących (...)"

So while % of people living outside of cities is slowly increasing for almost two decades now, % of agricultural population is rapidly declining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek
Before the WWII it was approx. 30%
If we are counting just ethnic Poles in Poland (and not Polish minorities abroad), then this figure of ca. 30% is correct (for year 1931).

Quote:
with quite tragical consequences for economic growth and social modernisation.
Better read this report (published on 13 July 2015): http://www.pomysloprzyszlosci.org/at...szy-Raport.pdf

Quote:
Well, the thesis that Masovian and Masurian are identical...
Some useful links and maps - "Dialekt Mazowiecki" (B3) covered both Masovia and Masuria:

http://www.dialektologia.uw.edu.pl/index.php?l1=start

http://www.gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/in...tpage&Itemid=1





Quote:
Frankly speaking I can't believe that anybody, who at least once visited Katowice (not to mention some Silesian backwatertown) can claim such nonsense in the serious forum.
Are you denying that most people in Europe now speak standard languages, and not old dialects? Do you know what percent of people spoke standard French in France in the early 19th century, or what percent spoke standard Italian in Italy around that time ??? Nowadays, vast majorities do.

As for Katowice - read what professor Franciszek Marek has to say about this:

Here: http://www.ngopole.pl/wp-content/upl...toni_MAREK.pdf

And here: O Śląsku i Ślązakach opowie prof. Franciszek Marek, Ślązak, pierwszy rektor UO

Citation (in Polish):

"(...) droga do powstania języka literackiego prowadzi przez tzw. narzecze (to mowa charakterystyczna, mająca wspólne cechy na wielkim obszarze). Wytworzyło się narzecze małopolskie, narzecze wielkopolskie, jednak nie wytworzyło się narzecze śląskie. Niektórzy uważają, że mamy 13, inni że 16 gwar śląskich, i tak np. w rybnickim i katowickim ludzie 'godają', na Opolszczyźnie ludzie 'rządzą', w raciborskim 'prawią'. Uważam, że tworzenie języka śląskiego jest zamachem na gwary, które się ostały. Powiedzmy sobie szczerze, to nie język literacki przeciwstawił się germanizacji, tylko te gwary lokalne i byłoby wielką niegodziwością je likwidować."

Examples of dialects from that region:

Rybnik dialect: zęby, gęsi, gołębie, kończyna, godać
Opole dialect: zamby, gańsi, gołambie, rasikoń, rządzić
Standard Polish: zęby, gęsi, gołębie, koniczyna, mówić

Standard Czech: zuby, husy, holubi, jetel, mluvit

In Katowice some people speak so-called "Industrial District dalect" (as prof. Marek calls it). But the majority speak standard Polish.

Quote:
It was changing much slower than standard Polish
I was comparing Masurian to Masovian, not to standard Polish (Masovian is not standard Polish, for your information).

Quote:
To begin with, Masurian dialect was separated from mainstream of Polish language for 4 centuries.
What?!

What separated Masurian dialect from Masovian dialect ??? Mountains ??? Sea ??? Ocean ??? Any other geographical obstacles ???

Quote:
than contemporary Masovian dialect.
What exactly does it mean "contemporary Masovian dialect" ??? Today people in Masovia speak standard Polish, not Masovian dialect.

Except for maybe some old people in some remote villages.

Quote:
Especially syntax remained very conservative
In other words, "linguistic dinosaur", spoken in "linguistic Jurassic Park" - right ???
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Old July 26th, 2015, 12:52 AM   #1944
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Secondly, Russia was complete backwatertown of Europe
Depends. Certainly not compared to Norway, Finland, Ireland, Iberia, Southern Italy or the Balkans of that time.

Quote:
(if we can call it Europe in the first place).
Reminds me of... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN_goH6Iz5I

As well as:





Fortunately, borders of Europe are defined by geographers, and not by you.

And here we come back to my statements about the science of ethnography...
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Old July 26th, 2015, 01:53 AM   #1945
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Mruczek,

Quote:
Well, there is difference between German and German-speaking Swiss or Austrian
Deutschland Germans, Switzerland Germans and Austria Germans are all, in ethnic terms... Germans (surprise)!

Quote:
there is difference between American and English
You cannot so freely compare the "New World" to the "Old World". I provided data on ethnic groups in the USA in post #1939 of this thread.

Quote:
and most importantly, Irish (who usually also speaks English).
In Ireland at the turns of the 18th and the 19th centuries, the majority of population still spoke Irish:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ieth_centuries

Quote:
Irish remained the majority tongue as late as 1800[17] but became a minority language during the 19th century.[18] It is an important part of Irish nationalist identity, marking a cultural distance between Irish people and the rest of Europe.
It was only during the 1800s when very efficient policies of forcible Anglicisation caused a near-extinction of Irish language. Despite almost succeeding at erasing Irish language, Anglicisation policies failed to erase Irish culture. Already in 1893 Douglas Hyde founded the Gaelic League (such a nationalistic movement of Irish national revival), and in 1891 Hyde had delivered a lecture: "The Necessity for De-Anglicizing Ireland". Read more about that here:

"English or Irish? Cultural nationalist ideology in late 19th-century Ireland":

http://webbut.unitbv.ro/BU2010/Serie.../33_Pinter.pdf

Quote:
In cultural nationalist circles the most daring linguistic objective was envisaged by Douglas Hyde and the Gaelic League. They set out to restore the daily use of Irish for a population of which only 0.8 percent was monoglot Irish speaker by the end of the 19th century (Denvir 1999: 20).

Despite this fact, the Gaelic League, founded in 1893, became an all-Ireland mass movement by 1900. According to the League’s leading principle saving the national identity of Ireland was unattainable through the medium of English.

Consequently, they considered Irish speech vital to an authentic linguistic expression of Irishness.

Douglas Hyde, founder, and leader of the League until 1910 [he later became the first President of independent Ireland], was also closely linked to Yeats’s literary movement. He was one of those who called the Irish Literary Society to life, and in 1892 he became president of the National Literary Society.

Although Hyde had been born to English speaking protestant parents in Western Sligo, he acquired Irish as a child from peasants in Roscommon County, and in his adult life he became an Irish-language enthusiast.

In 1891 he wrote the first modern play in Irish (Foster 447), and his "The Necessity for De-Anglicizing Ireland", has been the most passionate lecture ever delivered in support of Irish-Gaelic. For Hyde Irish-Gaelic formed the cultural ground upon which a uniquely Irish identity could be constructed. In his line of thought cultural and linguistic decolonization meant the prerequisite for a sovereign nation.

But to embrace Irish-Catholic as well as Anglo-Irish protestant, this decolonizing process had to be inclusive, and not exclusive, thus elevating the Irish people to a higher level of national existence. In order to decolonize Ireland in a cultural and linguistic sense, Hyde and the Gaelic Leaguers advocated a programme of restoring “Irish Ireland”, where the revival of Irish-Gaelic was of central importance.

In Hyde’s words: I appeal to every one whatever his politics – for this is no political matter – to do his best to help the Irish race to develop in future upon Irish lines, even at the risk of encouraging national aspirations, because upon Irish lines alone can the Irish race once more become what it was yore – one of the most original, artistic, literary, and charming peoples of Europe. (Hyde 11)

The “Irish Ireland” idea rooted in a reaction to Ireland becoming part of a single, integrated cultural zone of which England was the centre, and Ireland, having lost its native tongue and tradition, was reduced to a mere imitation of Victorian England (O’Tuathaigh 56). The programme of “Irish Ireland” aimed at liberating Irish thought and mentality from a state of dependence on English culture.

Consequently, Hyde avoided scapegoating the English for the loss of Irish identity. Instead, he blamed the Irish themselves who stick “in this half-way house”, who “apparently hate the English”, and decry their “vulgar” culture, but at the same time continue “to imitate” it; who “clamour for recognition as a distinct nationality”, but at the same time throw away with both hands what would make them so (Hyde 2-3).

In Hyde’s concept of “Irish Ireland” the Irish language was postulated as a binding force for the nation, but this had to face two obvious contradictions. Firstly, by the late 19th century the Irish population had largely become English speaking, and secondly, it held a fairly negative attitude to the ancient language. Beyond this, English was the printed medium of 19th century Ireland: newspapers, political and literary texts capable of appealing to a modern nation all came out in English. In George D. Boyce’s words: “English was the medium through which nationalist Ireland became a political reality” (Boyce 254).

We should ask why Hyde chose the restoration of Irish as a source for constructing a modern Irish consciousness. Because he considered the liberation of Irish culture to be the primary step to the liberation of the Irish nation. He was convinced that Ireland’s cultural separation from Anglo-Saxon civilization necessitated a linguistic separation at its core. Thus, in Hyde’s version of an Irish nation, regained independence is symbolized by a revived Irish language. Hyde expected Irish to serve as a motor for the cultural elevation of the nation, and cultural elevation to create an inclusive Irish nation.

The Anglo-Irish protestant Douglas Hyde, who knew Irish and felt belonging to the Irish nation, destined the Irish language to integrate a modern cultural nation, which is uniquely Irish but embraces both catholic and protestant social elements. In one interpretation Hyde was an idealist because the restoration of Irish was unrealizable with a largely English-speaking population, and his “Irish Ireland” identity myth failed to prove legitimate for large sections of the Irish people at the dawn of the 20th century.
Even though today most of Irish people speak English or are bilingual, Irish language is still an important part of their identity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_...lic_of_Ireland

Quote:
Irish is given recognition by the Constitution of Ireland as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being another official language). Although this is technically the case, in practice almost all government debates and business are conducted in English.[26] In 1938, the founder of Conradh na Gaeilge (The Gaelic League), Douglas Hyde, was inaugurated as the first President of Ireland. The record of his delivering his inaugural Declaration of Office in Roscommon Irish remains almost the only surviving remnant of anyone speaking in that dialect.

From the foundation of the Irish Free State in 1922 (see also History of the Republic of Ireland), the Irish Government required a degree of proficiency in Irish for all those who became newly appointed to civil service positions (including postal workers, tax officials, agricultural inspectors, etc.).[27] Proficiency in just one official language for entrance to the public service was introduced in 1974, in part through the actions of protest organisations like the Language Freedom Movement.

Though the First Official Language requirement was also dropped for wider public service jobs, Irish remains a required subject of study in all schools within the Republic which receive public money (see also Education in the Republic of Ireland). Those wishing to teach in primary schools in the State must also pass a compulsory examination called "Scrúdú Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge". The need for a pass in Leaving Certificate Irish or English for entry to the Gardaí (police) was introduced in September 2005, although applicants are given lessons in the language during the two years of training. The most important official documents of the Irish Government must be published in both Irish and English or Irish alone (in accordance with the Official Languages Act 2003, enforced by "An Coimisinéir Teanga", the Irish language ombudsman).

The National University of Ireland requires all students wishing to embark on a degree course in the NUI federal system to pass the subject of Irish in the Leaving Certificate or GCE/GCSE Examinations.[28] Exemptions are made from this requirement for students born outside of the Republic of Ireland, those who were born in the Republic but completed primary education outside it, and students diagnosed with dyslexia.

The National University of Ireland, Galway is required to appoint people who are competent in the Irish language, as long as they are also competent in all other aspects of the vacancy they are appointed to. This requirement is laid down by the University College Galway Act, 1929 (Section 3).[29] It is expected that the requirement may be repealed in due course.[30]

For a number of years there has been vigorous debate in political, academic and other circles about the failure of most students in the mainstream (English-medium) schools to achieve competence in the language, even after fourteen years.[31][32][33] The concomitant decline in the number of traditional native speakers has also been a cause of great concern.[34][35][36][37] In 2007, filmmaker Manchán Magan found few speakers and some incredulity while speaking only Irish in Dublin. He was unable to accomplish some everyday tasks, as portrayed in his documentary No Béarla.[38]
There is, however, a growing body of Irish speakers in the cities. Most of these are products of an independent education system in which Irish is the sole language of instruction. Such schools are known at the primary level as Gaelscoileanna and are supported by a number of secondary colleges. These Irish-medium schools send a much higher proportion of students on to tertiary level than do the mainstream schools, and it seems increasingly likely that, within a generation, habitual users of Irish will typically be members of an urban, middle-class and highly educated minority.[39]
Proportion of respondents who said they could speak Irish in the Ireland census in 2011 or the Northern Ireland census in 2011:



Number of people who can speak Irish is of course higher than number of people who do this on a regular basis. But according to the National University of Ireland, nowadays already ca. 25% of population of the Rep. of Ireland speak Irish regularly - a considerable progress since ca. 1900, when only 1% of the population were monoglot Irish speakers. The language is undergoing its Renaissance and revival, though not to the same extent as Hebrew in Israel.

The main reason why the Irish people did not adopt English ethnic identity - despite adopting English language - was because Irish cultural features became a substitute for lost language (apparently Irish culture was so distinct from English culture that they were able to maintain a distinct identity even after language ceased to be a barrier separating them).

An excerpt from "Language as a Marker of Ethnic Identity in New Zealand’s Pasifika Communities":

Quote:
Ethnic awareness, the view of who one is, is sustained by shared objective characteristics such as language, religion, by more subjective contributions (feeling of who one is), or by some combination of both (Edwards 1984, 1994). These criteria alter as groups adapt to confronting social forces. In such situations, a group’s original language need not remain as an objective marker of identity (Edwards & Chisholm 1987:393), language shift is common, and language as a key feature in identity is demoted to a symbolic feature or replaced entirely with other cultural features. (...)
It doesn't undermine the fact that in most situations language has historically been a good indicator of ethnic belongingness.

An excerpt from "My language, my people: language and ethnic identity among British-born South Asians":

Quote:
There is a substantial amount of empirical and theoretical work on the relationship between language and ethnic identity (Fishman 2001, Harris 2006, Omoniyi and White 2006), as well as some important contributions from social psychology (Gilesand Johnson 1987, Lawson and Sachdev 2004, Bourhis, El-Geledi and Sachdev 2007,Chen and Bond 2007, Jaspal and Coyle 2009). However, there has been little social psychological work on language and ethnic identity specifically among British SouthAsians, the largest ethnic minority group in the UK, although some attention has been paid to questions of ethnic identity in general (Ghuman 1999, Robinson 2009, Vadher and Barrett 2009, Jaspal and Cinnirella 2010). Nonetheless, sociolinguists have exhib-ited some interest in language and ethnic identity specifically among second genera-tion Asians (SGA) (...) The study of language and ethnic identity among SGA is particularly interesting,as their linguistic repertoire often features English (the ‘dominant’ language), thelanguage associated with their ethnic culture, which is termed the heritage language(HL) and, in many cases, a liturgical language associated with religious identity(Jaspal and Coyle 2010). Such multilingualism is constructed in the media both positively (as ‘bilingual Asian children do better’ in school – Casciani 2003) and negatively (as an obstacle to integration – Blunkett 2002). Today SGA outnumber theforeign-born first generation and their HLs continue to be widely used (Harris 2006).Theoretical generalisation across different cultures is problematic in this domain because not all cultures have the same relationship to language (...) Terms such as ‘native speaker’ and ‘mother tongue’ form part of the way that individuals think and talk about language (Myhill 2003). An individual might consider their ‘dominant’ language to be the language they speak most fluently (Fillmore 2000), although it would not be surprising for someone of Pakistani descent, for instance, to claim that their native language was Urdu, a language associated with Pakistani identity, on the basis of ethnic identity. (...)
Mruczek,

Quote:
Here you have got "objective criterias"
Please read the following: "Why is Language Often Closely Related to Ethnic and National Identity?":

http://www.thomastsoi.com/wp-content...20Identity.pdf

Quote:
Historically, the discussion of ethnicity diverges into two different opinions, namely the primordial and the instrumental perspectives. Traditionally the primordial view regards ethnicity as ‘constitut[ing] a fundamental feature of society and that ethnic identity is natural and unalienable’. In other words, the ethnicity of a group is defined by its ‘cultural and biological heritage, and is territorially rooted’ it is thus grounded by the group’s primordial ties and bounded by the ancestors’ values, myths, languages, etc.

Instrumentalists argue that the primordial approach emphasizes too much on the objective nature of ethnicity, which stresses that ethnicity is ‘given’ and born with once a person comes into this world. They criticize that the primordial approach cannot explain the evolution of ethnic groups over time. Instead of admitting solely to primordial ties, instrumentalists emphasize that ethnicity of a group should be understood in terms of its relationship to other groups. This simply means that the members of an ethnic group identify themselves subjectively in relation to other groups in order to maximize their social interest. In Worsley’s words, cultural traits are not absolute or simply intellectual categories, but are invoked to provide [ethnic] identities which legitimize claims to rights. They are strategies or weapons in competitions over scare social goods.

Adopting the instrumental approach to ethnicity, the relationship between language and ethnic identity will be much more transparent to us.

(...) in order to identify a group’s separate and unique ethnicity, the members often have to in some way find themselves certain features which can distinguish them from the other ethnic groups. For instance, biological heritage, religious divergence and language difference are commonly cited as proofs of ethnicity. Theoretically, biological heritage seems to be a reasonable argument which sets an ethnic group apart from the others. Yet in reality, such claims often lack the support of historical records and are sometimes subject to interpretation (...) the Taiwanese, despite their Han origin, refuse to identify themselves as ‘Chinese’ in order to fight for independence. (...) What is more important is that, claims on historical and sociopolitical reasons are not immediate indicators of ethnicity, meaning that the differences from the other groups are not immediately visible and must be traced and confirmed by additional effort.

On the other hand, it is safe to say that the very majority of our social life depends on the use of language, and the use of different languages naturally separates people into different groups, each not being able to understand the others. Lacking channels of communication, we typically identify others as being ‘different’ from us. This is what makes language such a prominent objective factor in defining ethnicity.

(...)

Other than language, religion is another very visible feature of social life which differentiates people into groups. Yet, it does not surprise us to say that religion difference is often associated with language difference. As region itself is a cultural product of a particular culture, it unavoidably bears certain emphases on the language of the culture which it originates from. For example, the official religion of Pakistan is Muslim, which regards Arabic as the sacred language. Therefore, despite the fact that the Pakistan language Urdu is almost linguistically equivalent to the Indian language of Hindi, it is written in Arabic script instead of the Hindi script, and is claimed to be a separate language.
Mruczek,

Quote:
Today people in Donbass are shooting at themselves, people speaking essentially the same Russian language.
Some o their grandparents spoke Ukrainian and some spoke Russian. Donbass has been an ethnic borderland between Russians and Ukrainians.

Governorates of the Russian Empire with over 10% Ukrainians by the end of the 19th century (compared to location of Lugansk and Donetsk):


Last edited by Domen123; July 26th, 2015 at 02:17 AM.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 01:59 AM   #1946
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Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
In 1991 around 62% of people in Poland lived in cities. Since then this percent is declining, because people from cities move to the countryside. It doesn't mean, that they are becoming farmers again, though... They live in the countryside, but work in cities.

Number of people employed in agriculture has actually declined by 50% since year 2000 until year 2008.

In 2008 only around 16% of the population lived from agriculture, even though a much higher percent lived outside of cities:

"(...) Ludność pracująca w rolnictwie, łowiectwie i leśnictwie w 2008 roku to 2138,4 tysięcy osób, w tym w samym rolnictwie: 2089,4 tysięcy. Od roku 2000 liczba ta zmalała dwukrotnie. Rolnictwo w Polsce zatrudnia prawie 16% ogółu osób pracujących (...)"

So while % of people living outside of cities is slowly increasing for almost two decades now, % of agricultural population is rapidly declining.
You're getting boring. The point was that Poles used to live predominantly in the villages approx. 100 years ago, pretty much the same as Masurians did.

Firstly you start to show extremely peculiar classification by which nations are most urbanised in Russia (why the hell Russia?). Now you are trying to convince me of the fact I am well aware that most of people living in the villages in Poland are not farmers.

This is all offtopic without any value to the discussion of Masurians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Some useful links and maps - "Dialekt Mazowiecki" (B3) covered both Masovia and Masuria:
Because that's where Masurians came from: Masovia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Are you denying that most people in Europe now speak standard languages, and not old dialects? Do you know what percent of people spoke standard French in France in the early 19th century, or what percent spoke standard Italian in Italy around that time ??? Nowadays, vast majorities do.
People speak standard languages, but their pronounciacion slightly differs depending on region. It is less visible in rather homogenous Poland, more visible in Germany, but it exists and thanks God we are not all robots complying to some standardised version.

Here's how it looked like in Germany during worst times of Gleischaltung:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Examples of dialects from that region:

Rybnik dialect: zęby, gęsi, gołębie, kończyna, godać
Opole dialect: zamby, gańsi, gołambie, rasikoń, rządzić
Standard Polish: zęby, gęsi, gołębie, koniczyna, mówić

Standard Czech: zuby, husy, holubi, jetel, mluvit

In Katowice some people speak so-called "Industrial District dalect" (as prof. Marek calls it). But the majority speak standard Polish.
Not long time ago you claimed that dialects vanished

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
I was comparing Masurian to Masovian, not to standard Polish (Masovian is not standard Polish, for your information).
Not long time ago you claimed that dialects vanished

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
What exactly does it mean "contemporary Masovian dialect" ??? Today people in Masovia speak standard Polish, not Masovian dialect.
You have just posted maps which shows the boundaries of dialects
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Old July 26th, 2015, 02:39 AM   #1947
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Mruczek,

Quote:
Over 500 thousand of people in Poland declared themselves as members of Silesian nation
This number above (500,000) is wrong.

The number of people who identified as "Silesian alone" was smaller than this, while if we add people who identified as Polish-Silesian or Silesian-Polish (since the 2011 census allowed people to report two identities instead of just one as in 2002 census) - then the number was much higher than this. There were also huge differences between numbers of people who reported "Silesian" identity in 2002 and 2011. In 2002 less than 175 thousand reported Silesian identity, while in 2011 almost a million reported it. One of reasons for this, could be the fact that 2002 census asked for something different than 2011 census.

The question in 2002 census (in which less than 175,000 declared Silesian identity) was like this:

In Polish: "Do jakiej narodowości się Pan(i) zalicza?"

In English: "What nationality do You belong to?"

While the question in 2011 census (in which almost 900,000 declared Silesian identity) was:

In Polish: "Jaka jest Pana/Pani narodowość? Czy odczuwa Pan/Pani przynależność także do innego narodu lub wspólnoty etnicznej?"

In English: "What is Your nationality? Do You also feel belongingness to some other nation or ethnic community?"

More importantly - 173,153 people who declared Silesian nationality in 2002 census, is only a fraction of all native Silesians living in Poland. In 1950 according to my calculations (based on 1950 census), there were up to 3,102,383 Silesians in Poland, including people from both Ostoberschlesien (Polish pre-1939 Silesian Voivodeship) and the rest of Silesia. That number (up to 3,102,383) included up to 2,169,709 people from Ostoberschlesien (pre-1939 Polish part of Silesia), and up to 932,674 from those parts of Silesia, which belonged to Germany before WW2 - vast majority of them of course from Oppeln Regency.

Poland's population since 1950 until 2002 increased from less than 25,01 million to over 38,23 million (so by over 65,42%).

Today Opolskie and Śląskie Voivodeships are inhabited 5,65 million people - of course not all of them are native Silesians, large part are people who moved to the region after WW2 and later (since it attracted industrial workers), and also huge percent of people there are now "krojcoki" ("ślonzoki" are Silesians, "gorole" are Non-Silesians, and "krojcoki" are mixed people, with partially Silesian ancestry and partially Non-Silesian ancestry):



====================

Edit:

Quote:
The question in 2002 census (in which less than 175,000 declared Silesian identity) was like this:

In Polish: "Do jakiej narodowości się Pan(i) zalicza?"

In English: "What nationality do You belong to?"

While the question in 2011 census (in which almost 900,000 declared Silesian identity) was:

In Polish: "Jaka jest Pana/Pani narodowość? Czy odczuwa Pan/Pani przynależność także do innego narodu lub wspólnoty etnicznej?"

In English: "What is Your nationality? Do You also feel belongingness to some other nation or ethnic community?"
An even more dramatic change between 2002 and 2011 than in case of Silesians, was in case of Kashubians.

Number of citizens of Poland declaring Kashubian identity increased 46 times (!) since 2002 until 2011.

In 2002 census, only 5,062 people declared Kashubian identity. In 2011 census, in total 232,547 people declared Kashubian identity (including 16,377 Kashubian alone; 215,784 Polish-Kashubian or Kashubian-Polish; and 386 Kashubians-something or something-Kashubians). The total number of people with ethnic Kashubian ancestry in Poland is estimated at over 500,000 - it means that in 2002 only 1% of Kashubians reported their Kashubianness.

In 2011 Kashubianness became more "trendy", with almost a quarter of a million people declaring it. But vast majority together with Polishness.

Let's add, that 97,714 (42%) of those 232,547 who declared Kashubian identity in 2011, declared also that they spoke Kashubian dialect at home.

In addition to that, another group of 10,426 people declared that they spoke Kashubian language/dialect in 2011 census, but they did not declare any kind of Kashubian ethnic identification (be it Polish-Kashubian, Kashubian alone, etc.) - they declared their identity as Polish alone.

So in total 108,140 people declared that they speak Kashubian dialect at home in 2011 census.

Of them 3,802 spoke Kashubian as their only language/dialect*, while 104,319 were bilinguals who spoke Kashubian and Polish.

Finally, 19 people were bilinguals who declared that they spoke Kashubian and some other, Non-Polish language.

*It is disputed, if Kashubian is a dialect of Polish. There is a saying that "a language is a dialect with an army". There is no Kashubian army.

==================================

Mruczek,

Quote:
Not long time ago you claimed that dialects vanished
Because they indeed mostly vanished. This data is based on how old people from villages spoke, or in some cases still speak.

Young people no longer speak traditional rural dialects.

I told you for example, that I don't speak gwara poznańska - at least not to the extent of my grandparents and great-grandparents.

Older generations preserved more from traditional dialects. Younger generations no longer speak them, not in their true meaning/sense.

Quote:
You have just posted maps which shows the boundaries of dialects
These are maps showing historical / traditional boundaries of dialects.

Certainly people in Warsaw do not speak Masovian dialect! Maybe old people in some remote villages of Masovia still do.

Quote:
People speak standard languages, but their pronounciacion slightly differs depending on region.
So they speak "standard languages with slightly different pronunciacion". This is not the same, as speaking dialects in true sense of this term!

Quote:
Because that's where Masurians came from: Masovia.
Actually this is a myth! They came from various parts of Poland, also from Masovia, but not only Masovia.

A lot of them for example came also from Wielkopolska, Malopolska and Pomerelia.

The reason why they spoke like those in Masovia, was because Masovia is in close proximity to Masuria.

Dialects of the same language are shaped mostly by geography and distance.

Upper Silesian dialects are most similar to Lesser Poland (Malopolska) dialects, due to geographical proximity.

Quote:
Firstly you start to show extremely peculiar classification by which nations are most urbanised in Russia (why the hell Russia?).
Because I had data for Russia. And also more Poles lived in Russia, than in Austria or in Prussia.

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Old July 26th, 2015, 03:38 AM   #1948
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Let's also compare people identifying as Germans in Polish censuses of 2002 and 2011:

In 2002 in total 153 thousand people identified as Germans (and only single identification was possible, not double like in 2011).

In 2011, in which two options for identification were available, only 26 thousand identified themselves as "Germans alone", another 52 thousand identified themselves as either Poles-Germans or Germans-Poles, and 31 thousand as Germans-Silesians or Silesians-Germans. In total 109 thousand.

In general - unlike in case of Kashubians and Silesians - number of people identifying as Germans of any kind, declined (from 153 k to 109 k).

Great fluctuations in number of people identifying as Silesians - but in the opposite direction than in Poland - are also observed in Czech Republic.

In 2001 census 44,000 people in Czech Republic declared themselves as being Silesians.

10 years later - in 2011 - only 11,000 people in Czech Republic declared Silesian identity.

===================================================

Censuses in Zaolzie from 1880 to 2001 (Polaci = Poles, Nemci = Germans, Jini = others, narodnost slezska = Silesians, narodnost moravska = Moravians):

http://www.polonica.cz/content/Polac...20Tesinsku.pdf


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Old July 26th, 2015, 03:40 AM   #1949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Because they indeed mostly vanished. This data is based on how old people from villages spoke, or in some cases still speak.

Young people no longer speak traditional rural dialects.

I told you for example, that I don't speak gwara poznańska - at least not to the extent of my grandparents and great-grandparents.

Older generations preserved more from traditional dialects. Younger generations no longer speak them, not in their true meaning/sense.
Aha, so apart from the fact of true meaning of one's nationality, you also have the understanding what is the true meaning/sense of dialect, even though majority of linguists still notice that there are some, albeit minor, regional differences. Well, good luck with that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
These are maps showing historical / traditional boundaries of dialects.

Certainly people in Warsaw do not speak Masovian dialect! Maybe old people in some remote villages of Masovia still do.
No, of course not, they are robots, who speak who are complying to the One-Truly-Pattern-Of-Real-Pole.

Apparently you don't understand that minor differences of pronounciacion also constitute dialect, it doesn't have to be semi-understandable slang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
So they speak "standard languages with slightly different pronunciacion". This is not the same, as speaking dialects in true sense of this term!
That's the textbook definition of dialect.

But I said, you can believe in anything you like, it's a free country. You can even believe that all Poles, Germans, Englishmen and so on are uniformed robots from some 20th century distopia, identical among the nation in every aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
Actually this is a myth! They came from various parts of Poland, also from Masovia, but not only Masovia.

A lot of them for example came also from Wielkopolska, Malopolska and Pomerelia.
Most of them came from Masovia. And, since you seem to be extremely captious: when the Masovian settlement of Masuria occurred, technically speaking Masovia wasn't a part of Poland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
The reason why they spoke like those in Masovia, was because Masovia is in close proximity to Masuria.

Dialects of the same language are shaped mostly by geography and distance.

Upper Silesian dialects are most similar to Lesser Poland (Malopolska) dialects, due to geographical proximity.
The comparison is absurd. Lesser Poland and Silesia were settled by Slavic population approximately at the same time (1500+ yrs ago) and the similarities (and continuity) were being created among them throughout centuries.

The Polish settlers, coming mostly from Masovia, is a phenomenon visible especially after Grunwald, 1410 and catastrophic depopulation of the Teutonic Order southern provinces. The settlement took place throughout 100 years and then nearly completely stopped. People who constituted most of Masurians weren't creating their own dialect by neighbourhood with Masovians - they were their descendants, that's it.

After secularisation of Teutonic Order and creating confessional border (1525), the contacts were weakened and reduced to small scale smuggling. After that, the ways of Masovia and Masuria started to go apart further and further.

Unless you are trying to convince me that Catholic (Masovia was probably one of most fanatic Catholic region in Poland) and Lutheran people lived together in peace, harmony and ever-lasting tolerance in 16th century
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Old July 26th, 2015, 04:05 AM   #1950
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Mruczek, coming back to Masurian speech:

Quote:
They spoke specific dialect of Polish, which also virtually ceased to exist.
Have you tried to find Masurian-speakers in the USA ???

Some of Polish Silesians who emigrated there in the 1800s, preserved their Polish Silesian dialects well.

For example Dorothy Pawelek from Texas - watch her video below, she speaks one of Silesian dialects of Polish here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do6-r7ImtVA

Original text in Silesian:

Quote:
Joł jest Dorka, joł jest Dorota. I am Dorothy Pawelek. Jo się urodziła w Teksasie, moi ojcowie byli Aleksander Pollock and Anna Moczygemba-Pollock. Oni mieli siedem dzieci a jo była ta najmodszo. Jok jo było 23 lot staro, joł się wydała do Alojza Pawelka. I my mieli jedna dziołcha, się nazywał Susan a ona ma dziołszka się nazywa Eden. Jok jo była piećdziesiot dziewieć lot staro, jo owdowiała i tera mieszkom sama. Jok ja była mała dziołszka w doma, to my ino rzędziły po polsku. Ale to nie było za tyla do mojej mamy, oni chcieli co by jo się nauczyła czytać i pisać po polsku. I my mieli siostry Felicjanki, ale one nos ino uczyły po angielsku, ale ci co chcieli się nauczyć po polsku czytać i pisać, łone nos uczyły przed szkołą abo po szkole. W roku osiemdziesiąt dziewięć jo pojechoła pierszy roz do tej kochanej Polski. Bardzo mi się tam podobało. I tera wiem skąd moi starzyki przyszli. Od ojca strony przyszli z Grodziska a od mamy strony przyszli z Płużnica. Tera jak jadę do Polski to się czuja że jadę do dom. Ja jest bardzo rada iż wy mocie ta wystawa z Teksasu. Tera wiecie co mie tu robiemy i wy robiemy w Teksasie. Serdecznie pozdrawiam Was wszystkich, musicie wiedzieć iże tako Dorka w Teksasie bardzo psza jest. Do zobaczenio w Teksasie albo w Polsce. Do widzienia.
Translation to English:

Quote:
I am Dorothy Pawelek. I was born in Texas, my parents were Alexander Pollock and Anna Moczygemba-Pollock. They had seven children and I was the youngest of them. When I was 23 years old, I married Alojzy Pawelek. And we had one daughter, her name was Susan, and she has a little daughter, her name is Eden. When I was 59 years old, I widowed and now I live alone. When I was a small girl then at home we were only talking in Polish. But that was not enough for my mother, parents wanted me also to learn how to read and write in Polish. And we had Felician Sisters, but they were only teaching us English, but in case of those who wanted to learn reading and writing in Polish, they were giving us lessons either before school or after school. In 1989 I visited this beloved Poland for the first time. I liked being there very much. And now I know from where my ancestors came. My paternal ancestors came from Grodzisko while maternal ancestors from Płużnica. Now each time when I visit Poland, I feel like I was visiting my home. I am very happy that you have this exhibition from Texas. Now you know what we are doing here in Texas and what you can do. Kind regards to all of you, you must know that such a cool Dorka lives in Texas. See you later in Texas or in Poland. Goodbye.
Her ancestors came to the USA from Płużnica Wielka (German: Groß Pluschnitz) and Grodzisko (German: Grodisko):

http://www.slask-texas.org/en/materi...ialy-mapy.html



Texan Silesians visiting this part of their family, which still lives in Płużnica Wielka:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFfh1DDZlfI#t=277

And such a video: "Silesians from Texas are searching for their roots in Opole Voivodeship":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLKnau9PyC0

Since 0:28 of the video: "(...) Szkoda że jo nie przywiezła te, jo miała te family tree, my się ani nie wspomniało wiesz (...)"

===============================

The oldest ethnic Polish settlement in the USA was established by Poles from Silesia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpb8YHF1jmc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFfh1DDZlfI

Quote:
Panna Maria in Texas - the oldest Polish settlement in the USA. Established by Silesians, who 160 years ago emigrated to distant America. Today descendants of first emigrants live here - families of Dziukowie, Moczygemby, Bednorze, Pieprzyce...
Why did Silesians call their first settlement in Texas Panna Maria?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFfh1DDZlfI

Quote:
350 years ago, Kordecki was the one who was protecting Czestochowa from the Swedish army. Why did we call the first Polish place in Texas Panna Maria? Because of this faith, that the Blessed Mother would take care of us. This is not Moczygemba, Varsovia Ville or whatever, but Panna Maria...
Check also:

http://www.slask-texas.org/en

And this website of the "Father Leopold Moczygemba Foundation":

http://www.flmfoundation.org/

Quote:
Developing, maintaining and supporting exchange programs for cultural, religious
and educational activities in Texas and Silesia, Poland.

Founded In Panna Maria, Texas
At least dozens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Polish-speaking Silesians emigrated to the USA in the 1800s and the early 1900s.

Today vast majority of them declare Polish ethnicity/ancestry, not Silesian.

Number of Americans who declared Polish ethnicity/ancestry in U.S. censuses of 1980-2010:

1980 - 9,366,106
1990 - 8,228,037
2000 - 8,977,137
2010 - 9,569,207

Number of Americans who declared Silesian ethnicity/ancestry in the U.S. census of 2000:

2010 - 339 (of whom 227 as first identification, 67 as second identification)

By comparison some other identifications from the 2000 census in the USA:

Austrians - 730336
Prussians - 33164
Alsatians - 15601
Bavarians - 5728
Tiroleans - 4792
Saxons - 4147
Hessians - 762
Westphalians - <300
Sudetenlanders - <300
Lotharingians - <300
Hannoverians - <300
Berliners - <300
Hamburgians - <300
Lubeckers - <300

In the U.S. census of 2000 only 339 people declared Silesian ancestry, a negligible number (fewer than 300) declared Kashubian ancestry and 456 Pomeranian ancestry (even though there are perhaps millions or at least hundreds of thousands of descendants of immigrants from Silesia and Pomerania/Pomerelia who came to the U.S. - but they declare Polish or / and German ancestries). Even Hessian-Americans are more numerous than Silesian-Americans.

Quote:
Unless you are trying to convince me that Catholic (Masovia was probably one of most fanatic Catholic region in Poland) and Lutheran people lived together in peace, harmony and ever-lasting tolerance in 16th century
In Poland-Lithuania there was religious tolerance and freedom in the 16th century (and until the middle of the 17th century):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation

Check also "Register of Protestant communities in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 16th-18th centuries":

http://www.atlasfontium.pl/index.php?article=zbory

Quote:
No, of course not, they are robots
In fact most of people who live in Warsaw are probably not even from Masovia.

The capital city attracts immigrants from all regions and all corners of Poland.

Quote:
The Polish settlers, coming mostly from Masovia, is a phenomenon visible especially after Grunwald, 1410 and catastrophic depopulation of the Teutonic Order southern provinces. The settlement took place throughout 100 years and then nearly completely stopped.
The settlement did not cease by 1510. It continued also later, including after 1525 (after secularisation). You are right that Polish immigration to Masuria started around 1410, but many settlers came also later during the 1500s, at the request of Albrecht Hohenzollern (read below).



Quote:
After secularisation of Teutonic Order and creating confessional border (1525), the contacts were weakened and reduced to small scale smuggling.
Not exactly!

Although Polish immigration started in the 1400s, many settlers came in the 1500s, they were invited by Albrecht Hohenzollern.

The same refers to Lithuanian immigration to Prussian Lithuania (Klein Litauen):

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i295735_k...a-mtern-02.jpg

Map of Klein Litauen



In 1525 after the secularisation, the Duchy of Prussia as a fiefdom of Poland, under the reign of Duke Albrecht von Brandenburg-Ansbach (former Grand Master of the Teutonic Order), was created. The Duchy consisted of the Prussian part of the former Teutonic Order's State (in its post-1466 borders) and had an area of around 32,000 square km. Almost 80% of its area was covered by forests, lakes, rivers and swamps. The Duchy was sparsely populated, partially due to Polish-Teutonic wars which had devastated it during the 15th century (in period 1409 - 1466). Duke Albrecht von Brandenburg-Ansbach (also known as Hohenzollern) immediately in 1525 started a large colonizing action, inviting foreign settlers - mostly from Poland and from Lithuania (settlers from Poland had already lived in East Prussia before, but now he invited more of them). Only in period 1525 - 1568 as many as 293 new settlements - populated by Polish immigrants - were established in the region of Masuria. Already before that, in years 1519 - 1521, about 4000 peasants from the Netherlands were invited to the war-devastated region of Pomesania. Just in years 1555 - 1565 in the area of Insterburg (nowadays Chernyakhovsk) the number of villages increased from 171 to 411, as the result of colonization by immigrants from Lithuania. By year 1540 most of the population of the new Duchy of Prussia - regardless of ethnicity (Old Prussian, German, Polish or Lithuanian, etc.) - converted to Lutheranism. But that did not immediately create a "religious barrier" between Masuria and Masovia - that took place only after the success of Counter-Reformation in Poland, in the middle of the 17th century. Until that time Poland was tolerant for Protestants. Later some religious refugees continued to migrate from Poland to Ducal Prussia (Lutherans), and from Ducal Prussia to Poland (Catholics).

Quote:
1410 and catastrophic depopulation of the Teutonic Order southern provinces.
Those provinces were known as "Grosse Wildnis" ("Great Wilderness") already before 1410. There was not much population to depopulate there.

Peter de Dusburg in his chronicle described those regions as depopulated already in the 1200s. Though some groups of Galindians lived there.

Quote:
People who constituted most of Masurians weren't creating their own dialect by neighbourhood with Masovians
Neighbourhood with Masovia also helped. That's how dialectal differences work. There is a dialect continuum within a given language.

Quote:
The comparison is absurd. Lesser Poland and Silesia were settled by Slavic population approximately at the same time (1500+ yrs ago) and the similarities (and continuity) were being created among them throughout centuries.
It is not absurd at all...

Greater Poland was also settled at the same time, yet Lesser Polish dialect is closer to Upper Silesian than Greater Polish.

This is due to greater geographical proximity of Upper Silesia to Lesser Poland, than to Greater Poland.

Quote:
even though majority of linguists still notice that there are some, albeit minor, regional differences.
These maps showing range of various dialects are usually based on situation in the past, for example 100 or 150 years ago, not at present. By the way - there is a language barrier between English and Polish in this discussion, because in Polish there is gwara (local dialect) and narzecze (regional dialect), while in English there is only one word - dialect. So in some cases maybe were are writing one thing, and thinking about something different.

Quote:
technically speaking Masovia wasn't a part of Poland.
What do you mean?

At some point in time it wasn't, politically speaking, directly part of the reunited kingdom of Poland, but it was it's fiefdom.

However, the HRE or decentralised Medieval France - for example - consisted mostly of such "just fiefdoms" of Emperors and of French kings, respectively. So if we accept your concept of land ownership (?), then most of areas which were parts of the HRE or of France, were not really parts of it...

Moreover, there was a concept known as "Corona Regni Poloniae", in a way similar to Jewish concept of "the Promised Land":

"During the 1300s Polish lawyers developed a legal concept of 'Corona Regni Poloniae', which was about infrangibility and permanency of Polish territory. In the light of that legal concept, territory which was once part of Poland, remained part of Poland forever. Basing on that law, Polish rulers were aiming at regaining areas over which they lost their political control (but in the light of this concept - they remained parts of Poland, legally and formally). Poland - embodied in 'Corona Regni Poloniae' - never lost Silesia, for example. Poland - according to the concept of 'Corona Regni Poloniae', which was first developed during the 1300s - includes: 1) areas which are located within the political borders of the Polish state at a given time, and 2) All historically Polish territories. The concept of "Corona Regni Poloniae" was described in detail by Polish historian and diplomat Jan Długosz, who lived during the 1400s. The law of infrangibility and permanency of Polish territory established by the concept of 'Corona Regni Poloniae' was recognized as being superior to all agreements and treaties."

Quote:
That's the textbook definition of dialect.
Exactly from which textbook does it come from?:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dialect

"Linguistics. a variety of a language that is distinguished from other varieties of the same language by features of phonology, grammar, and vocabulary, and by its use by a group of speakers who are set off from others geographically or socially."

As you can see there are more requirements than just slight differences in pronounciation.

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Old July 26th, 2015, 10:17 PM   #1951
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Poland's population since 1950 until 2002 increased from less than 25,01 million to over 38,23 million (so by over 65,42%).
~53% to be fair.
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Old July 27th, 2015, 02:31 AM   #1952
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Thank you Saxonia for correction, my calculator got crazy.

As for Masuria:

It is interesting why so many inhabitants of that region, including also those from Dzialdowo county (incorporated to Poland already in 1919), emigrated, while people from Kraik Rychtalski (Reichthaler Ländchen) - part of Lower Silesia which was incorporated to Poland in 1920 - generally stayed.

Kraik Rychtalski is perhaps the last place where Lower Silesian dialects of Polish are still spoken today by some old people - example below:

http://www.dziadowakloda.pl/content....=sub&cms_id=40

Among native Silesians of Kraik Rychtalski is or was (he was 101 years old in 2006, so I'm not sure if he is still alive) Franciszek Nitzke from Bralin:

Here a 2006 interview with him in Polish: http://www.mojawyspa.co.uk/artykuly/...szystkim-praca

Here a 1996 interview with him in English: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80016077

Some excerpts from the 1996 interview (if you click the link above, you can listen to the whole of it):

Quote:
Content description

REEL 1 Background in Bralin, Germany, 1905-1918: family; education; sight of German troop movements in area at start of First World War, 1914; loyalties of Silesian Poles; how his father went into hiding as Polish nationalist, 1918. Aspects of period as doctor with Department of Polish Army Medical Services in Poland, 1939: pattern of his university education as army doctor prior to 1939 (...)
"(...)
- Doctor Nitzke, where were you born, please?
- The locality is Bralin, B-r-a-l-i-n, in Poland.
- Which part of Poland is that?
- That's Silesia.
- And tell me what the date of your birth was, please?
- The 21st of September 1905.
- Can you tell me something about your family background, what your father did for a living or so?
- My father was a businessman, he had a business [description of the business]
- And was it a Polish family?
- Yes, a Polish family, Polish family. Father was Polish, mother was Polish.
- Is your surname Polish? Your surname, is it Polish, Nitzke?
- Yes, it's Polish you know, but it is a little bit changed. It used to be quite different [among my distant ancestors], it was so under the Germans of course [...] eventually my name is like that, it used to be Nitzke since I was born.
(...)
- Do you have any memories of WW1?
- Oh yes, of course.
- What memories do you have?
- I remember all the German troops going towards the Russian front, they were going through Bralin by train or even marching.
(...)
- Did your family suffer any privations?
- No, no, we had one of these German commanding officers, a colonel, he was billeted in our house, so we were protected. I mean, from the point of view of the Germans at that time, there was no trouble at all, because we, in Silesia, we were German citizens.
- What was the attitude of local Polish people in Silesia towards the war, when it comes to political issues?
- Well, you know, there was nothing special at that time. Because it was just a world war. And because we lived in Germany, so to speak, in Silesia. So of course everybody agreed with that.
- Did people feel loyal to the German Reich?
- At that time yes, the beginning of the war.
- Did it change?
- Yes it changed later on, towards the end of the war, and immediately after the war. Then the Polish nationality and Polish nationalism, they started to emerge. And then there was an uprising in Silesia, three times.
- What did you see of that uprising?
- Well I didn't see it, in our part, in my part, near Bralin, there was nothing to be seen, because the uprising was in Upper Silesia, in that part.
(...)"


Before WW1 that area had belonged to Regierungsbezirk Breslau, Kreis Namslau and Kreis Polnisch-Wartenberg - renamed* Groß-Wartenberg in 1888.

*In Silesia there were a lot of settlement names with adjective "Polnisch", which were renamed to something else under Bismarck or Hitler.

Last edited by Domen123; July 27th, 2015 at 03:55 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 05:12 PM   #1953
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Just a small correction...Albrecht Hohenzollern wrote preface in Polish to "Repetitio corporis doctrinae ecclesiasticae albo Powtorzenie summy a gruntownego zamknienia prawey, pospolitey, chrzescianskiey, kościelney nauki (...)"

http://polona.pl/item/11652002/3/

Duke in Prussia, son of Sophia of Poland and Frederick I of Brandenburg-Ansbach, was also fluent in Latin (please see a letter Jan Kochanowski sent to Albrecht Hohenzollern in 1556 below)



http://zbiory.bj.uj.edu.pl/neolatina.../id/19371.html

...or Mikołaj Rej's letter here

"Oeconomia albo Gospodarstwo to iest Nauka (...)" was a gift for Dorothea of Denmark, Duchess of Prussia (I suppose she learned Polish at the court of Albrecht Hohenzollern)

http://polona.pl/item/14726459/8/

To put it simple, Albrecht Hohenzollern was a multilingual person fluent in Polish, German and Latin of mixed Polish-German origin, who ruled over mixed ethnically dukedom (Polish, German, Old Prussian, Lithuanian) and paid tribute and swore allegiance to rulers of Poland since 1525 until his death in 1568.

Albrecht's title: "Margrave of Brandenburg in Prussia, Stettin, Pomerania, Duke of the Kashubians, and Wandals (Slavs), Burgrave of Nuremberg, Duke of Rügen"

Royal title of Sigismund II Augustus in 1550: "Sigismund Augustus, by the Grace of God, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania, Lord and heir of the Lands of Kraków, Sandomierz, Sieradz, Łęczyca, Kuyavia, Ruthenia, all of Prussia, Masovia, Samogitia, Pomerania, Chełmno, Elbląg"
I've mentioned titles held by Albrecht Hohenzollern and Sigismund II Augustus, so maybe it's worth adding Stanisław Hozjusz/Stanislaus Hosius: "Stanislai Hosii Episcopi Warmien."/"Stanisław Hozjusz Bishop of Warmia"...

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 4th, 2015 at 11:50 AM.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 10:40 AM   #1954
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Albrecht's title: "Margrave of Brandenburg in Prussia, Stettin, Pomerania, Duke of the Kashubians, and Wandals (Slavs), Burgrave of Nuremberg, Duke of Rügen"
Map of "Vuandalorum (Vuandalica seu Sclauonica natio), Cassubiorum, Stetini, Pomeraniae, Vsedom, Gutzkouij, Vuolgasti, Rugiae, Barthiae" (1550)

* Click on the map to see the source

The Treaty of Grimnitz (26 August 1529) granted the Hohenzollern the right of succession in case the House of Pomerania went extinct...this explains Albrecht's title.

"Ustawa albo porząd koscielny iako się w Xięstwie Pruskiem" by Albrecht Hohenzollern (published in 1560)

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/docc...87423&from=FBC

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Old July 30th, 2015, 01:00 PM   #1955
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WW1 memorial in Idzbark/Hirschberg, Masuria


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Old July 31st, 2015, 12:18 AM   #1956
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I've made a map showing ethnic groups in East Prussia in the early 1800s (majority ethnic group by county):

http://s21.postimg.org/4x5lnmcjb/East_Prussia.png



In the early 1800s Lithuanians from East Prussia constituted about 15-16% of all Lithuanians.

Polish historian & geographer Stanisław Plater, in his "Geography of the Eastern Part of Europe...", published in 1825, wrote the following:

1. About Roman Catholic Lithuanians in the Russian Empire:

"(...) Lithuanians are remnants of an ancient nation (...) already in times of Mindaugas and Gediminas the true Lithuania (...) attached to much larger dominions in which foreign language was spoken, was in fact a Rusyn state. Lithuanians as we observe them today, number fewer than 1,300,000 heads; of them majority belong to the Russian Empire. (...) Lithuanians inhabit almost entire Vilno Governorate and the northern part of Grodno Governorate. In three counties of former Samogitia, that is in Raseiniai, Telsiai and Siauliai, they preserved more of their original nationality than elsewhere; it is also there where they are in the best condition, have the best houses, the best agricultural tools and property; there they enjoy the lucky ease of selling their products, in close proximity to Königsberg and Riga. The Lithuanian language, that is the Samogitian language, is not one of Slavic languages, but rather it is very similar to brotherly Livonian or Latvian (...) Only very few of Catholic Lithuanians can read, thus no other works are being published in this language apart from several prayer books printed in Vilno: Latin letters are used in these books. Lithuanians are of Roman Catholic faith since their conversion by Władysław Jogaila at the end of the 14th century. But here and there also traces of old Pagan ceremonies have remained in customs of rural people, which can be justified only by gross illiteracy, and which not so long ago have been used in favour of poetry by picturesque imagination of Mickiewicz. In parishes where rural population consists of Lithuanians, gospels and sermons are being delivered either in Polish language or in Samogitian language. (...)"

2. About Protestant (Evangelical) Lithuanians in East Prussia:

"(...) Lithuanians inhabit over 1/4 of the territory of East Prussia, the eastern part of it. What distinguishes Protestant Lithuanian peasants in East Prussia from their Catholic brothers in the Russian Empire, is that they are of evangelical faith, that they are more industrious, that they have better houses and agricultural tools, and that they are more educated. (...) Nearly all of them can read: the Bible and prayer books in Lithuanian language can be found in every house: they are being printed by print shops located in Königsberg, with use of Gothic letters. (...)"

Plater in his 1825 book estimated the total number of Lithuanians as fewer than 1,300,000 - including:

1. Lithuanians in the Russian Empire:

Vilno Governorate - 780,000 Lithuanians (out of 1,200,000 inhabitants)
Grodno Governorate - 100,000 Lithuanians (out of 800,000 inhabitants)
Augustow Voivodeship - 200,000 Lithuanians (out of 450,000 inhabitants)

2. Lithuanians in the Kingdom of Prussia:

East Prussia - 200,000 Lithuanians (out of 1,080,000 inhabitants)

TOTAL - 1,280,000

Lithuanians - especially those in the Russian Empire - were an overwhelmingly rural ethnic group. Only 3,16% lived in towns as of year 1897:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=JZ9...groups&f=false

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Old July 31st, 2015, 03:11 PM   #1957
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WW1 memorial in Ливенское/Galbrasten, Kleinlitauen

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Golberg Joh. ???
Golberg ??? + 31.8.1915
???chus H. 25.4.16
???uweit Fr. 15.6.18
??? A. 8.5.18
???mnat Sim. 4.9.14
???eleit G. 14.12.16
Endrulat Otto 13.8.15
Endrulat Adlof 2.2.15
Hellwich Emil 20.8.14
Herbst Aug. 23.3.15
Josuweit Joh. 15.6.15
Ju?a? Chr. 4.8.18
Jurkschat H. 5.10.14
Jurkschat J. 15.2.15
Jeckstadt Fr. 26.4.18

Radke F. 29.10.18
Endrigkeit Em. 29.8.14
Lenuweit Geor. 11.8.17
Lenuweit Gust. 16.2.1?
Nicklaus Fr. 29.10.18
Wa?agat F. 18.9.18
Powilleit E. 25.3.19
Pots???at J. 22.3.19
Podszuweit F. 13.2.17
Podszuweit J. 18.7.20
Podszuweit H. 29.1.15
Drinkmann F. 27.10.14
Nomiuweit H 23.3.15
Siepputat J. 16.?.1?
Schumann ?. 5.7.16
Konrad P. 25.2.15

Schorat Gust. 28.10.1?
WW1 memorial in Междуречье/Groß Pillkallen, Kleinlitauen

Quote:
R. Grundmann † 19.08.1914
Fritz Kosney † 19.08.1914
Jul. Dronke [Drenke] † 19.08.1914
Paul Kosney † 19.08.1914
Max Eggert † 19.08.1914
A. Müller † 19.08.1914
Stellv. Kasper † 19.08.1914
B. Kochanski † 19.08.1914
?. Homfeld † 19.08.1914
Gustav Neumann † 19.08.1914
Leo Reese † 19.08.1914
Stirnat † 19.08.1914
Pritzkoleit † 19.08.1914
Otto Stirnat † 19.08.1914
Pritzkoleit † 19.08.1914
Friedrich Onat † 19.08.1914
Michel Kwirba [Skirba] † 19.08.1914
Ansas Tidecks [Tidccki] † 19.08.1914
Michel Gellßinat [Gellszinat] † 19.08.1914
Paul Wilkitzki † 19.08.1914
Jurgis Tennigkeit † 19.08.1914
Ansas Bedarf † 19.08.1914
Fritz Uschkoreit † 19.08.1914
Hermann Maus † 19.08.1914
Michael Staudschus [Stanschus] † 19.08.1914
Otto Waldteich † 19.08.1914
Albert Wassel † 19.08.1914
Fritz Woiwood [Woiwod] † 19.08.1914
Franz Spauszus † 19.08.1914
Gustav Knopp † 19.08.1914
Franz Hirt [Hirth] † 19.08.1914
Franz Geyer † 19.08.1914
Jurgis Lempke [Lemke] † 19.08.1914
Paul Göbel [Goebel] † 19.08.1914
Martin Szobries [Szabries] † 19.08.1914
Martin Geldschinnes [Gellszinnus] † 19.08.1914
Franz Bannbach [Baumbach] † 19.08.1914
Gustav Abrillas [Abrillat] † 19.08.1914
Bernhard Szameitzke † 19.08.1914
Peter Bsdock [Bzdock] † 19.08.1914
Michel Bendig [Bemdic] † 19.08.1914
Michael Bendigs † 19.08.1914
Endrig Krepstakies † 19.08.1914
Friedrich Haupt † 19.08.1914
Albert Paeslzck [Passlack] † 19.08.1914
Wilhelm Rohland † 19.08.1914
Stagsnat [Stagat] † 19.08.1914
Johann Schorst † 19.08.1914
Franz Odrowski † 19.08.1914
Gustav Staff † 19.08.1914
Fr. Krobnowski † 19.08.1914
??? Grinda † 19.08.1914
Korries † 19.08.1914
Hugo Rutkhe † 19.08.1914
?. Moetzkus † 19.08.1914
Nadolni † 19.08.1914
Kreutzberger † 19.08.1914
Pfeiffer † 19.08.1914
Schlobinski † 19.08.1914
Schroeder † 19.08.1914
Schwenz † 19.08.1914
Stadthaus † 19.08.1914
Thiergart † 19.08.1914
Will † 19.08.1914
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Old July 31st, 2015, 06:02 PM   #1958
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Old Market and Copernicus Canal in Frombork/Frauenburg (Warmia) are being revitalised...









Source (photos by Tomek Mroczkowski)

See also post #1816.
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Last edited by RS_UK-PL; July 31st, 2015 at 06:18 PM.
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Old July 31st, 2015, 06:19 PM   #1959
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Nice job, Frombork!

It was such a beautiful town when I visited but I was dismayed that there was no central public space.
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Old August 2nd, 2015, 12:04 PM   #1960
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Still this bridge exist?



The Mother of Prussia...

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soweit nicht anders angegeben außerhalb von den Skybars.

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