Glasgow Development Summary

[gleegie]

With you there Del.

I still mourn the loss of Trinity, it made far better use of the site, it would have been a mini cluster in and of itself, would have been totally unique and appear like a ship in sail from the Clyde.

My only concern was the quality of the white finish, if they'd gone for some clean ceramic tiling and tweaked the base it would have been my favourite tower in the UK.

It was scrapped, apparently, due to insoluble wind sheer.

Elphinstone, though superb, does leave a somewhat bitter aftertaste looking at the opportunity lost. Also, I have to say this, it's not as impressive as similar rival towers ie Criterion place, Brunswick Quay... although maybe these wont get built. It is certainly of a higher quality than ALL the current Beetham's.

[pooka]

In my opinion the base blocks need to be read as a single distinctive element with its own unique character, possibly as a solid with openings or louvers to clearly separate it. The materials and fenestration on the base elements are too similar to the tower and simply putting a frame round it does not appear to work, it is far too weak. Something should be done with the ancillary stuff on the top and the narrow curved roof line is also too weak. The elevation to the motorway looks like it needs more of the adjoining building and should be stronger and read more with the other low block.
Just opinion though. Eye of the beholder and all that!

[aland]

The skirt at the base is out of proportion with the rest of the tower, lift it up another 4 0f 5 storys and it'll make all the difference................but hey, what the fuck do I know, eh Pooka?

[meagain]

Lift the skirt up eh alan!

[gweilo]

Well guys 95 wind tunnel tests (which I believe is a record) tells you something. Wind is a planning issue. If you make wind conditions worse you will not get planning. It is a simple as that (Alan should know all about this!). I can assure you that options such as stepping the low blocks up towards the tower were tried. They looked good but they didn't alleviate the wind and so had to be ruled out. Many other options were also tried. The three towers solution would have had a detrimental wind impact on the surrounding streets and again had to be ruled out.

All this is highly frustrating but that is the consequence of wind conditions in Glasgow and how exposed that particular site is. Who would predict that and there is not a lot we can do about it! If Glasgow had the same wind conditions as Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds or London we would not be having this discussion and life would be a lot easier!

Wind tunnel testing might seem like a science but I can assure you it is not. It is an art form. It is also extremely expensive. Often the engineers can predict one thing and the opposite can happen. Things as subtle as rotating a tower several degrees can make all the difference between a pass and a fail. The only option that worked was the one that was submitted. Anything higher than those low blocks caused problems so the height of these blocks is determined by environmental constraints.

Dealing with issues such as this puts a whole different perspective on how you design something. Other than a 'tick the box' second year exercise modelling the wind impact of your building definitely wasn't something I had to deal with in college! I don't envy the guys that had to do this. Anyway you are commenting on computer perspectives and photographs. Seeing the scheme in 3 dimensions (i.e. the model) is more convincing. Oh and Pooka the developer doesn't own the site to the north so the building facing the motorway cannot be made any bigger even if you would like it to be. Also scale can be deceptive. Again you need to see the model to appreciate this but the 'low' blocks, if they were elsewhere in the city centre would be amongst the largest office blocks in the city.

Cheers

Gweilo

[ad at home]

sorry gweilo...........................but are you suggesting that the proportion of the skirt at the base can't be increased because of wind?

Does'nt have to be a structural change or even exposed columns, a change in material or detail would do. Something that registers visually

Are you also suggesting that I could be full of hot air?

[gleegie]

Bugger the wind. Plant tree's, glaze over St Vincent st.... if you can't build tall there why have it designated suitable for high rises? The combined height of 64 floors sellable space would have made it worthwhile surely?

Shall I presume GCC will demolish the Anderston centre now forthwith due to its windswept plaza's?

THIS WIND NONSENSE IS JUST A COVER UP FOR POOR DESIGN. GLASGOW DOES NOT SUFFER FROM DRASTIC WINDS. WHAT ABOUT THE USA WHICH IS BATTERED BY MASSIVE WIND STORMS, THEY STILL HAVE SKYSCRAPERS THERE....

[get13]

I agree with mlyzo. It is a load of nonsence. Look at chicago aka THE WINDY CITY.

[The Boy David]

I will try explain this as best I can using my limited knowledge of aerodynamics. If I am talking complete shite, then dont hesitate to tell me so...


The problem with the wind situation is complicated. Glasgow does indeed experience higher wind speeds than most of the other cities in the UK, and this in turn has a large knock-on effect with buildings changing both the speed and direction of the airflow around them.

Buildings act like huge sails (Excuse the crude analogy here) in the way that they catch a great deal of the wind blowing into the building. But instead of pushing the building forward like a sail pushes a boat, the air is stopped dead in its tracks.

Of course, because of the great amount of momentum the wind possesses, it has to go somewhere, and most of the time, that means that these gusts, which in Elphinstone's case will be coming from a height of up to 440ft, flow down the building and onto the street where the direction of the flow has to change again.

This basically means that Elphinstone becomes a 440ft sail that pushes all of its trapped wind downwards the ground at much greater speeds than the original local windspeed itself, greatly intensifying the strength and speed of the airflow at ground level.

I think it was said that during wind tunnel testing (sadly I dont have the source to back this up) the first design of Elphinstone Place was creating 80 mph winds at street level. Any pedestrians walking past this on a windy day would have been in a lot of trouble. Hence the great number of wind tunnel tests, and the complete scrapping of the Trinity design in the first place.

This shows that the building has to be extremely aerodynamic, which in turn means that the designers have to sacrifice some of its good looks to create a more aerodynamically advanced structure. Therefore Elphinstone has good reason for looking the way it does - I would be willing to bet that every curve and undulation on the building has been extensively tested.

I hope that makes sense!


By the way Chicago is actually no windier than any other major US city (within reason) This is straight from our good friend Wikipedia

The Windy City" - It is often recited — erroneously ....

Rather, the nineteenth-century citations reveal that the nickname arose in connection with (1) the longwindedness of politicians, both residents and those visiting for political conventions; and (2) the city's many boosters who commended the western metropolis to the world's attention.

.
Just thought I would enlighten you with that get13 lol

[get13]

Thats me told

that pushes all of its trapped wind downwards the ground at much greater speeds than the original

This makes me think of someone farting lol

[gweilo]

THIS WIND NONSENSE IS JUST A COVER UP FOR POOR DESIGN. GLASGOW DOES NOT SUFFER FROM DRASTIC WINDS. WHAT ABOUT THE USA WHICH IS BATTERED BY MASSIVE WIND STORMS, THEY STILL HAVE SKYSCRAPERS THERE....

LOL! What nonsense indeed! Sorry Mlyzo (and Get13) but where exactly have you been for the last couple of weeks? Evidently not in Glasgow or the west coast of Scotland. 120 mile an hour winds ring a bell? We might not get the hurricane type storms that afflict parts of the States but the atlantic depressions that hit the west coast can bring hurricane strength winds at a frequency greater than the rest of the UK. Also the winds speeds these depression generate mean that average wind speeds in Glasgow are three times greater than the those in the south east. Sorry but your statement is incorrect.

Alan and Gleegie trust me all your suggestions were tried and they didn't work! Problem is not so much height as height combined with length of unrelived building frontage. You have to make this as permeable or diffuse as possible to counteract the strength of the wind. Which is why there will be a large number of trees planted around the base of the new building. It's not a cosmetic or public realm gesture, just soley to break up the strength of the winds. And Gleegie though it has been suspected, with the exception of the Science centre tower (which for obvious reasons had to be tested anyway), no one had done wind tunnel testing in Glasgow as a requirement for planning permission before Glasgow Harbour Phase 1 so how would you know? In the case of Glasgow Harbour you can design out problems retrospectively by using canopies to deflect the worst instances, or clever landscaping to deflect pedestrians away from problem areas as you control and form public space. I believe this is the same strategy that Alan and co are using on the Phase 2 scheme. However, Elphinstone is a completely different kettle of fish as it is being slotted into an existing urban environment rather than one being shaped around it!

Cheers

Gweilo

PS Alan I have never thought that you were full of hot air! ...


Bit windy maybe... har har !

Originally Posted by gweilo

LOL! What nonsense indeed! Sorry Mlyzo (and Get13) but where exactly have you been for the last couple of weeks? Evidently not in Glasgow or the west coast of Scotland. 120 mile an hour winds ring a bell? We might not get the hurricane type storms that afflict parts of the States but the atlantic depressions that hit the west coast can bring hurricane strength winds at a frequency greater than the rest of the UK. Also the winds speeds these depression generate mean that average wind speeds in Glasgow are three times greater than the those in the south east. Sorry but your statement is incorrect.

Alan and Gleegie trust me all your suggestions were tried and they didn't work! Problem is not so much height as height combined with length of unrelived building frontage. You have to make this as permeable or diffuse as possible to counteract the strength of the wind. Which is why there will be a large number of trees planted around the base of the new building. It's not a cosmetic or public realm gesture, just soley to break up the strength of the winds. And Gleegie though it has been suspected, with the exception of the Science centre tower (which for obvious reasons had to be tested anyway), no one had done wind tunnel testing in Glasgow as a requirement for planning permission before Glasgow Harbour Phase 1 so how would you know? In the case of Glasgow Harbour you can design out problems retrospectively by using canopies to deflect the worst instances, or clever landscaping to deflect pedestrians away from problem areas as you control and form public space. I believe this is the same strategy that Alan and co are using on the Phase 2 scheme. However, Elphinstone is a completely different kettle of fish as it is being slotted into an existing urban environment rather than one being shaped around it!

Cheers

Gweilo

PS Alan I have never thought that you were full of hot air! ...


Bit windy maybe... har har !

GWEILO I TOTALY UNDERSTAND YOUR EXPLANATION ABOUT HOW THE WIND AFFECTS BUILDINGS BUT THIS IS JUST BEING USED AS AN EXCUSE TO COVER UP FOR THE POOR DESIGN OF THE BASE OF ELPHINSTONE TOWER. SO GWEILO YOU ARE SAYING ALL THE TOWERS IN THE USA ARE POORLY DESIGNED, AFTER ALL THEY ARE ABOUT 600M TALLER AND SUFFER GREATER STRENGHTS OF WIND AT A GREATER FREQUENCY, I DO NOT THINK SO. I DO NOT SEE HOW THE WIND IN GLASGOW CAN BE BLAMED FOR THE TOWERS POOR DESIGN, LACK OF IMAGINATION, THOUGHT AND TIME MORE LIKE.

[gweilo]

GWEILO I TOTALY UNDERSTAND YOUR EXPLANATION ABOUT HOW THE WIND AFFECTS BUILDINGS BUT THIS IS JUST BEING USED AS AN EXCUSE TO COVER UP FOR THE POOR DESIGN OF THE BASE OF ELPHINSTONE TOWER. SO GWEILO YOU ARE SAYING ALL THE TOWERS IN THE USA ARE POORLY DESIGNED, AFTER ALL THEY ARE ABOUT 600M TALLER AND SUFFER GREATER STRENGHTS OF WIND AT A GREATER FREQUENCY, I DO NOT THINK SO. I DO NOT SEE HOW THE WIND IN GLASGOW CAN BE BLAMED FOR THE TOWERS POOR DESIGN, LACK OF IMAGINATION, THOUGHT AND TIME MORE LIKE.

Don't put words in my mouth Mlyzo. Where did I say that towers in the US were badly designed? As for lack of imagination, thought, and time try 6 years of development since the original design competition and 95 different options tested not to mentioned countless other sketch options explored. Try for a minute imagining both the frustration and the reality of going through that, and having to deal with and accomodate all the various interested parties wanting input and a say in the process, and if you have the empathy to do so, then you might try and put a little more imagination, thought, and time into your responses.

Cheers

Gweilo

[crusty_bint]

Fancy turning your Caps Lock off Mlyzo... it doesn't make for comfortable reading

[The Boy David]

Mlyzo ive gotta side with Gweilo on this one. I think that between the two of us we have explained more than adequately the reason Elphinstone Place looks the way it does.

One thing I have learned in this forum is that you have to provide sound reasoning to back up arguments like these. When it comes down to it, you are dealing with some of the best architectural talent in Scotland in this forum, and most of the time, unless you are of a similar standard to them(of which i am not) then you need to listen more carefully to what they have to say. Apologies to you if you are an architect, though.

I agree with you that the base is not the best to look at, but thats the way it has to be.

AND STOP SHOUTING, lol

Originally Posted by gweilo

Don't put words in my mouth Mlyzo. Where did I say that towers in the US were badly designed? As for lack of imagination, thought, and time try 6 years of development since the original design competition and 95 different options tested not to mentioned countless other sketch options explored. Try for a minute imagining both the frustration and the reality of going through that, and having to deal with and accomodate all the various interested parties wanting input and a say in the process, and if you have the empathy to do so, then you might try and put a little more imagination, thought, and time into your responses.

Cheers

Gweilo

TOTAL RUBBISH. IF THE WIND IN GLASGOW IS CAUSING SO MUCH PROBLEMS THEN HOW DO THEY GET AROUND IT IN THE USA? ELPHINSTONE IS TINY COMPARED TO SOME OF THE SKYSCRAPERS IN THE USA. IF YOU ARE SAYING THE DESIGN OF ELPHINSTONE IS SO HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY THE WIND IN GLASGOW, HOW COME THERE ARE AMAZINGLY DESIGNED TOWERS IN THE USA? ADMIT IT, THE POOR DESIGN OF THE BASE OF THE TOWER IS DUE TO LACK OF VISION AND PROBABLY INVESTMENT. THE WIND IS NOT A PROBLEM, IT JUST REPRESENTS A CHALLANGE OBVIOUSLY TOO GREAT FOR ELPHINSTONES DESIGNERS.

Originally Posted by The Boy David

Mlyzo ive gotta side with Gweilo on this one. I think that between the two of us we have explained more than adequately the reason Elphinstone Place looks the way it does.

One thing I have learned in this forum is that you have to provide sound reasoning to back up arguments like these. When it comes down to it, you are dealing with some of the best architectural talent in Scotland in this forum, and most of the time, unless you are of a similar standard to them(of which i am not) then you need to listen more carefully to what they have to say. Apologies to you if you are an architect, though.

I agree with you that the base is not the best to look at, but thats the way it has to be.

AND STOP SHOUTING, lol

Sorry for the caps. David the reason, I am arguimg this wind nonsense is rubbish is because I worked as an engineer on The Tokio City Hall Towers, which were completed in 91, at a hight of 243m. The winds we had to deal with were worse than Glasgow, plus we had to deal with earth quakes. Our architects though had the vision and talent to see this as a challange rrather than a problem, and did a fantastic job.

[gweilo]

No I am not spouting rubbish Mylzo. But you are definitely demonstrating a lack of empathy and quite frankly are being plain unfair if not insulting. I know people that worked on this and believe me it was not an easy and forgiving project. Quite often they were tearing their hair out but you make it sound as if they just couldn't be bothered. Well I can assure you that was not the case and couldn't be further from the truth. You are also demonstrating you ignorance of problems encountered with skyscrapers in the US. Towers like the Sears have had severe wind problems around their basis. So much so that the base of the Sears had to be redesigned because it failed altogether as a public space simply because it was too windy for people to use. The same reason goes for dozens of empty and unloved plazas fronting skyscrapers all over the States. Many of these have also had to be redesigned to negate wind problems. Elphinstone forms part of a generation of skyscrapers that are trying to learn from this. Look at how the new residential skyscrapers in Vancouver try and integrate with their surroundings by clustering town houses around their bases for example. This helps with wind as it creates a permeable base that breaks up wind. The developers at Elphinstone have put in devices such as arcades as they also achieve this, and this is the first time a feature such as this has been used in Glasgow (a city where quite frankly they should be commonplace). Given the resultant loss of lettable space and the impact this has on efficencies this arcade, along with the atruim winter garden, is a generous gesture and yet you are sniffing at it. Why? Could you do better and if so lets see your solution.

Gweilo

PS I would also reiterate the Boy david's request, could you please use lower case and not shout all the time.

[gleegie]

Elphinstone IS a spectacular design.

The last but 1 design was bland, but the recently approved version is stunning.

I'd take Elphinstone over any of the condo towers rising in the states any day of the week.