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Old September 24th, 2012, 12:25 AM   #41
katsuma
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Originally Posted by whatever... View Post
From the Great Northern war till late 19th century, Jews were the largest ethnic group in Vilnius.
Source?

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Niasvyzh and Mir castles for example, were built/rebuilt by Mikalojus Kristupas Radvila in the times when Radvilos family was still Lithuanian (unlike the present day fake Radziwills from Ruthenia). The father of Kristupas Radvila, Mikalojus Radvila "the black", was a chancellor and grand Hetman of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, a Calvinist and a patriot, who till his last breath opposed the catholic church and the union with Poland.
AFAIK, there were a few branches of Radziwiłł family and two of them adopted Calvinism.

And if we were to speak about the roots of Radziwiłłs, they are said to have descended from Ościk/Astikas family from Kierniów/Kernave in Vilnius region, who used the Polish coat of arms "Trąby". However, the name Radziwiłł is said to have originated from Ruthenian "Radzivil" and later on adopted to Lithuanian.

BTW, Tyszkiewicz family, who had descended from Ruthenian nobles (boyars), used the Polish coat of arms "Leliwa", whereas Sapieha family were using "Lis" coat of arms, which was transferred from Kingdom of Poland to GDL after the Union of Horodło.

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Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
Kornyakta Tower, Opera House - are not Polish architecture
Further to what Puritan said re Opera House, the info on Korniakt Palace provides that the previous house was rebuilt into a palatial residence by the Polish king, Jan III Sobieski.

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Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
P.S. More and more I realize what we will never have a good relations with the Poles.
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Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
You're repeating yourself about "we will never have a good relations with the Poles". It's your loss ...
+1

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Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
Igor L. outraged.

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Originally Posted by ufonut View Post
Let's look at your avatar - shall we ?

http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images...j4/content.jpg

(...)
ufonut, even if you were right, that's irrelevant for this thread. I'd ask you to edit or delete your comment.

Last edited by katsuma; September 24th, 2012 at 12:49 AM. Reason: update
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #42
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Ukrainian majority in Lublin before WW2?! Any source?

"Krakow etc. the German heritage too" - Krakow?! Any source? I'm almost certainly sure that Poles were in majority in Krakow for at least 400 years before WW2.



Red - Polish majority
Bright red - large Polish minorities

Why You keep posting this interwar map of Polish imperialistic propaganda? It has nothing to do with the reality of that time
Wanna know more? Ask me for the not Polish maps of the region (German, Austrian, French, Slovenian, etc.).
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #43
Igor L.
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Further to what Puritan said re Opera House, the info on Korniakt Palace provides that the previous house was rebuilt into a palatial residence by the Polish king, Jan III Sobieski.
What does it change? Firstly, Kornyakt Tower is not Kornyakt Palace. Secondly, Kornyakt was not a Pole. Kornyakt Tower & Kornyakt Palace are not Polish architecture. This is 100% true.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:12 AM   #44
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What does it change? Firstly, Kornyakt Tower is not Kornyakt Palace. Secondly, Kornyakt was not a Pole. Kornyakt Tower & Kornyakt Palace are not Polish architecture. This is 100% true.
Korniakta Tower is considered one of the most precious monuments of Polish architecture of the sixteenth century Mannerism architectural style.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannerist
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
Why You keep posting this interwar map of Polish imperialistic propaganda? It has nothing to do with the reality of that time
Wanna know more? Ask me for the not Polish maps of the region (German, Austrian, French, Slovenian, etc.).
Wanna know more?

Read this:
Lithuanization of Poles and Jews in Lauda area (Liaudė) and Lithuanization of Germans in Memel/Klaipeda region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanization
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_(region)

Polonization of Wilno/Vilnius area in II Polish Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poloniz...281918-1939.29

Cultural assimilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation

Ps. Sorry for double post.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
Firstly, Kornyakt Tower is not Kornyakt Palace.
Sorry, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
Secondly, Kornyakt was not a Pole. Kornyakt Tower & Kornyakt Palace are not Polish architecture.
No, he was not of Polish origin, AFAIK. But he was a subject of the Polish Crown, which Lviv/Lwów was part of. Besides, Korniakt would've been the investor and not architect. And the best people hired for this job at the time were Italians and also Dutch. So what does it tell us in terms of this particular architectural heritage in Lviv?

Last edited by katsuma; September 24th, 2012 at 01:37 AM.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:38 AM   #47
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Korniakta Tower is considered one of the most precious monuments of Polish architecture of the sixteenth century Mannerism architectural style.


Poles have come up with this nonsense.

Kornyakt tower is part of the complex of Ukrainian Orthodox Dormition Church. Poles are Catholics.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:51 AM   #48
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Sorry, my bad.

No, he was not of Polish origin, AFAIK. But he was a subject of the Polish Crown, which Lviv/Lwów was part of. Besides, Korniakt would've been the investor and not architect. And the best people hired for this job at the time were Italians and also Dutch. So what does it tell us in terms of this particular architectural heritage in Lviv?
Helsinki (Finland) is a part of Russian architectural heritage?
Warsaw (1815-1918) is a part of Russian architectural heritage?
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Old September 24th, 2012, 01:57 AM   #49
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Verkiai/Werki Palace
It was built for bishop Ignacy Jakub Massalski in 1780 by two famous architects, Laurynas Gucevičius/Wawrzyniec Gucewicz and Marcin Knackfus/Marcin Knakfus in the Neoclassical style. The general plan and maintenance buildings were designed by Marcin Knackfus/Marcin Knakfus. The main palace building, the stables and several other buildings were designed by Gucevičius/Gucewicz. The building was called "the Versailles of Vilnius". The palace had a little theatre, large library, and a small gun museum and was surrounded by a park.









Strange logic. In the place of the Verkiai (etymology of the name of the place: "verkti" in Lithuanian means "to cry", Werki is just meaningless translation from Lithuanian) palace, there was a castle of the Lithuanian dukes. The place was transferred to the Catholic priests. Later this palace was built by Poland-born German Knackfus and Lithuanian Gucevičius.
It was owned by Helene Apollonie de Ligne.
The palace was bought by Prussian German Ludwig Wittgenstein in the 19th century. Later the palace was owned by Maria Wittgenstein-Hohenlohe and Александра Чапелевская.
What makes this place in the lands, where Baltic tribes lived from the 2000 years BC, Polish? I just don't get it. It is not more Polish that Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian, French or German, but I haven't seen Russian threads like "Бывшие российские провинции" with posts "Русский дворец в Веркяй" or German, Ukrainian.
What makes it Polish heritage, the only thing, that Laurynas Gucevičius knew not only Lithuanian, French, but also Polish language?
Maybe then he was Laurent Gucaisvichy, great French architect?
Or the thing, that he lived in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth automatically make everyone into Pole? Is it the same like Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was English? Why not Belarussian, maybe he was Лаурын Гуцэвiч then? )
Complete nonsense.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 02:13 AM   #50
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Wanna know more?

Read this:
Lithuanization of Poles and Jews in Lauda area (Liaudė) and Lithuanization of Germans in Memel/Klaipeda region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanization
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_(region)

Polonization of Wilno/Vilnius area in II Polish Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poloniz...281918-1939.29

Cultural assimilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation

Ps. Sorry for double post.
There we no Lauda or whatever you call it in Lithuania the same as there were no Wilno ever in history, without the short period, when it was occupied by Polish state and via unrecognized "elections" incorporated into Poland.
The thing, that some people spoke Polish doesn't make them into Poles. Is it so hard to understand? Or would you insist, that there are no Irish people, because they speak English? Are they actually English and The Great Britain should occupy the country or them to make threads about Dublin and Cork - "Former territory of the Great Britain"?
Would You also call England of the 13-14th centuries a French state? Are we ready for the thread "Former territory of France in the Great Britain"?
Check your logic.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 03:40 AM   #51
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Source?
The Russian Imperial Census of 1897. Look it up.


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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
And if we were to speak about the roots of Radziwiłłs, they are said to have descended from Ościk/Astikas family from Kierniów/Kernave in Vilnius region, who used the Polish coat of arms "Trąby".
And?

Almost every single one of noble Lithuanian families had "Polish" coat of arms. That's because we were christened from Poland...

Kristinas Astikas, the founder of Radvilos and Astikai noble families, was initially a pagan. He's a presumed grandson of 13th century Grand Duke of Lithuania - Traidenis.


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However, the name Radziwiłł is said to have originated from Ruthenian "Radzivil" and later on adopted to Lithuanian.
Radvilas is an ancient Lithuanian name, created from two words that literally mean "found hope".

Belorussian (pseudo)historians are worth about as much as those in FYROMacedonia.

And would you please be so kind and stop mutilating our language and names with "Polish translations". Oscik, Radziwill, Jagiello, Witold, Kierniow, Wilno, Kowno, Troki, Olgierd, Giedymin, etc. - none of these "names" make any sense or have any meaning. If you want to have a name for your king Jogaila in Polish then call him "jezdzic konno mocny" (excuse my poor Polish), because that's what approximately his name means when translated from Lithuanian.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #52
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Okay, let's try this again. I have removed the provocative title and removed the ridiculous provocative tags and will re-install the thread with the understanding that
if anyone continues arguing about these historically sensitive border changes that they will receive an automatic infraction. Same goes for more provocative tags;
people who place tags should be aware that moderators can clearly see who did it.
The photos are beautiful, so let's please just enjoy them and set aside fighting about border issues.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #53
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Helsinki (Finland) is a part of Russian architectural heritage?
Actually it is to some extent, as the city was remodeled after Saint Petersburg.

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Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
Warsaw (1815-1918) is a part of Russian architectural heritage?
Actually it was to some extent, several landmarks were remodeled and anther were built from scratch in neobyzantin style. However most of these buildings were reverted into original state or demolished after 1918, it's a theme for another discussion if it was good or bad. Anyway there are places in Poland where influences of Russian architecture are still clearly visible (Łódź), I see no problem about it and I doubt Finns have problem with their capital looking like a Russian city. So come on, there is clearly Polish heritage present in the former Kresy as there is German and other heritage present all over Poland. It's normal, such is all Europe and It's silly to try to deny it.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #54
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People, just start posting pictures and serious documentation based on historical facts again, thank you.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #55
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Agreed. People should pay close attention to what we are saying, or they will soon get unwanted infractions.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #56
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http://www.kresy.org.pl/galeria/

I'm just wondering how many of these palaces are still preserved.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; September 24th, 2012 at 07:02 PM.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #57
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City plan of Львів/Lwów from 1910
http://www.mapywig.org/m/City_plans/..._7.2K_1910.jpg
and from 1939
http://www.mapywig.org/m/City_plans/..._LWOW_1939.jpg
City plan of Vilnius/Wilno from 1904
http://www.mapywig.org/m/City_plans/...WILNY_1904.jpg
from 1916
http://www.mapywig.org/m/City_plans/...12.5K_1916.jpg
and 1921
http://www.mapywig.org/m/City_plans/...12.5K_1921.jpg
In my opinion, Vilnius/Wilno and Львів/Lwów are the most beautiful city eastern europe
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Old September 24th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #58
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Puslowski Castle in Kosava/Kosow Poleski
Kosava/Kosow Poleski castle is a neo-Gothic castle, built in 1830 by the graf Wandalin Puslowski close to the palace where Tadeusz Kosciuszko was born. The castle is similar to a replica of Tadeusz Kosciuszko's house in Mereczowszczyzna.





Wisniowiecki Palace in Vyshnivets/Wisniowiec





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Last edited by RS_UK-PL; September 24th, 2012 at 11:13 PM.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #59
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(...) if anyone continues arguing about these historically sensitive border changes that they will receive an automatic infraction.
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People, just start posting pictures and serious documentation based on historical facts again, thank you.
If I were a mod, I'd let users express themselves and challenge others' opinions, even if it was to become a little flamewar for a few days. Silencing people down just postpones a heated discussion, which for sure will take place again. But unfortunately not here on SSC, despite the fact we have a great direct communication platform, where the interested parties from neighbouring countries can share their views and maybe express grievances, which sometimes have been floating on national level for a long time.

Oh, and shortening the title to "Kresy" is ridiculous, as this term bears a sentimental meaning to Polish forumers only. I'd appreciate if you could show a bit of reason, Taller Better, and changed it to eg. "Kresy (former eastern borderlands of Poland)".
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Old September 24th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #60
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Potocki Palace in Mykulyntsi/Mikulince
It was built in the 1860s.







Potocki Palace in Tartakov/Tartakow





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