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Old September 25th, 2012, 03:47 PM   #81
uunxx
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Typical Ukrainian rococo.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #82
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I will reveal you a secret, there are no Polish people at all, there are just Polish language speakers tricked to believe they are Polish while they are really Polans, Vistulans, Mazovians etc.
Well, can You see any difference between Polans, Mazovians, Ruthenians, Italians, Lithuanians?
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Old September 25th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #83
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"When we "dig" these people, what Poles claim to be Poles, only 1 of 10 or 1 of 20 is of Polish origin."

So what? Fortunately, we don't live in the "Hitler's Paradise" where German nation is of Germanic origin, where Polish nation is of West Slavic origin, etc. My girlfriend has even German surname (btw, if you would've said that she's German, you would've been slapped in the face).

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; September 25th, 2012 at 04:11 PM.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #84
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Well, can You see any difference between Polans, Mazovians, Ruthenians, Italians, Lithuanians?
All of these were once separate political entities, some of them still are, some aren't. For example Mazovia was, similarly to Lithuania, once independent nation (1138-1351 - over 200 years!), hadn't it been weakened by wars we could have separate Mazovian language and culture by now. So Mazovia is like less fortunate Lithuania in terms that in could never regain independence. Or didn't it? Warsaw, the current capital of Poland is a city in the heart of Mazovia, so clearly Poland is now under occupation of Mazovians! So what? Dunno, but we can clearly support any dumb theory using historical facts.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:12 PM   #85
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"When we "dig" these people, what Poles claim to be Poles, only 1 of 10 or 1 of 20 is of Polish origin."

So what? We don't live in the "Hitler's Paradise" where German nation is of Germanic origin, where Polish nation is of West Slavic origin, etc. My girlfriend has even German surname and if you would've said that she's German, you would've been slapped in the face.
The problem is, that You "make" all the notable people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth into Poles. And You sincerely believe they are Poles in the sense of today, Poles of ethnic Poland state. That is something really very Polish logic.
Unfortunately, I got no answers, why all the birth metrics and gravestones
up to the end of the 17th century on the lands of [Polish contemporary invention - term] "Kresy" were in Latin, schools, Universities were Latin, 9 of 10 buildings were built by Italians, also. I am afraid Italians should make a thread "Italian Borderlands - lost Italian heritage in Belarus".
By the way, documents before 1717 were written in Old Ruthenian language. Some odd Poles, they feel so Polish in contemporary meaning, that preferred Cyrillic script.
Thanks God, We don't live on "Pilsudski's paradise" for a long time. Not Poles, of course
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #86
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All of these were once separate political entities, some of them still are, some aren't. For example Mazovia was, similarly to Lithuania, once independent nation (1138-1351 - over 200 years!), hadn't it been weakened by wars we could have separate Mazovian language and culture by now. So Mazovia is like less fortunate Lithuania in terms that in could never regain independence. Or didn't it? Warsaw, the current capital of Poland is a city in the heart of Mazovia, so clearly Poland is now under occupation of Mazovians! So what? Dunno, but we can clearly support any dumb theory using historical facts.
Well, Lithuanians are actually not only separate state (and was so for hundreds of years), but also different ethnic group, with entirely different language, cultural background, etc.
You claim, that Lithuanians are subgroup of Poles or what?
I also don't think, that this Your idea would be met with joy within Ukrainians, but You can try to prove, that Ukrainians are just the same as Mazovians, hence they are actually Poles!
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
Well, Lithuanians are actually not only separate state (and was so for hundreds of years), but also different ethnic group, with entirely different language, cultural background, etc.
You claim, that Lithuanians are subgroup of Poles or what?
I also don't think, that this Your idea would be met with joy within Ukrainians, but You can try to prove, that Ukrainians are just the same as Mazovians, hence they are actually Poles!
No, no, there are no Poles at all, I've already said that, it's just a cluster of a few random tribes, no Poland, it's just our imagination. Maybe if I take some neuroleptics I'll stop seeing Poles around .
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #88
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You can try to prove, that Ukrainians are just the same as Mazovians, hence they are actually Poles!
Lendians (ancestors of Poles, territories around Lwow/Lviv)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lendians

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; September 25th, 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #89
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No, no, there are no Poles at all, I've already said that.
Then explain what this thread is all about.
Not about Poles? It is getting even more interesting.
What is the meaning of this thread, what is the message?
When we know more about what it is, the people also could contribute.
Because now I live on the territory, that You name "Kresy", but I really don't understand what it means, no one of locals call it so, nor i got the idea of the thread.
Isn't it strange and cool, to find out, that Your country and its historical capital from the 14th century is someone's borderlands, someone's lost territories, stolen lands, that contemporary inhabitants has no rights to the country and its capital (some Poles told me so in this forum) and they even have ANOTHER true names, woow!!!!!
But now I cant contribute, because I don't know how and what to present.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #90
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Then explain what this thread is all about.
Not about Poles? It is getting even more interesting.
What is the meaning of this thread, what is the message?
When we know more about what it is, the people also could contribute.
Because now I live on the territory, that You name "Kresy", but I really don't understand what it means, no one of locals call it so, nor i got the idea of the thread.
My family being silly enough to consider themselves Poles, despite being conglomerate of genes from all of Mitteleuropa thought they've lost something when they've been packed into a caro train and transported from Lwów to Hirschberg never to come back. They call the areas where they have lived before WWII "kresy". Also they and others have left some heritage because it was to big to fit into suitcases.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #91
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I could say that "Kresy" thing became as idea in 1920-1939 of Poland policy at this time.
It goes without saying that before 1920 no one pole, even the sober pole, wouldn't say that Vilnius should be part of Poland. 1920-1939 policy changed this ideas and distorted absolutely Polish-Lithuanian state traditions and thinking.
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>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #92
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Lwow - St. Elizabeth Church initiated by Count Leon Pininski and archbishop Jozel Bilczewski. Great work by reknown Polish architect Teodor Talowski.

After 1945 the church was confiscated by Soviet Ukrainian authorities and turned into a storage facility for animal feed (pigs, cows etc).





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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #93
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"Because now I live on the territory, that You name "Kresy", but I really don't understand what it means, no one of locals call it so, nor i got the idea of the thread."

Kresy Wschodnie or Kresy (Polish pronunciation: [ˈkrɛsɨ], "Eastern Borderlands", or "Borderlands") is a former territory of the eastern provinces of Poland. These territories today lie in western Ukraine, western Belarus, as well as eastern Lithuania, with such major cities, as Lviv, Vilnius, and Hrodna. This territory was included within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Second Polish Republic, until World War II.
More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy

BTW, I have a question about your ethnicity if it is so important to you. Are your ancestors Jewish, Polish, Russian, Belarusian or Lithuanian? Are your grandparents from territories of Vilnius?
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:54 PM   #94
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What about this map?

Kresy of Lithuania, nice, yea?

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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
I could say that "Kresy" thing became as idea in 1920-1939 of Poland policy at this time.
It goes without saying that before 1920 no one pole, even the sober pole, wouldn't say that Vilnius should be part of Poland. 1920-1939 policy changed this ideas and distorted absolutely Polish-Lithuanian state traditions and thinking.
Kresy is really not only Vilnius area, I would say it's more anything else than Vilnius area.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #96
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This territory was included within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Second Polish Republic, until World War II.
More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy
Vilnius was a part of Poland in 1919-1939, and this was jus occupation of historical Lithuania capital.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #97
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My family being silly enough to consider themselves Poles, despite being conglomerate of genes from all of Mitteleuropa thought they've lost something when they've been packed into a caro train and transported from Lwów to Hirschberg never to come back. They call the areas where they have lived before WWII "kresy". Also they and others have left some heritage because it was to big to fit into suitcases.
These deportations are sad, of course.
A question. Did they call themselves Poles in the first half of the 20th century or is it a consequence of the deportations? Do You know how they called themselves in the 19th, 18th or 17th centuries and what language they spoke? It could be (not necessity of course) not the same as your family speaks today and they back then (e.g. 17-19 centuries) may even do not know they live in the Borderlands and are Poles in contemporary meaning.

Let's look at an example. Mikalojus Čiurlionis. Father: Polish speaking guy, Mother: German Protestant from Prussia. Kid? Lithuanian (dude didn't knew Lithuanian).
How Čiurlionis is more Lithuanian, than Gucewicz or Wiwulski, whose both parents were ethnic Lithuanians or are nationalities just accident thing?
This question is the most interesting for me.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
What about this map?

Kresy of Lithuania, nice, yea?

Yep, if you have some heritage left in these areas that you keep nostalgic feelings about, then yes, it may be your "kresy". No problem, feel free to nostalgize about your lost greatness.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #99
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What about this map?

Kresy of Lithuania, nice, yea?

This is nothing. What about this?
«Cart Ethnographique de L'Europe», J.Gabris, «Institut Geographique Kummerly&Frey», Berne, 1918
http://beroma.users.photofile.ru/pho.../122637545.jpg
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Old September 25th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #100
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Kresy is really not only Vilnius area, I would say it's more anything else than Vilnius area.
Than why you add photos from Vilnius and areas. Towns like Trakai.
Or city of Grand Duchy of Lithuania Gardinas, which was part of Lithuania 1260-1795.
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