daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #101
Puritan
Registered User
 
Puritan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 396
Likes (Received): 1615

Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
Because now I live on the territory, that You name "Kresy", but I really don't understand what it means, no one of locals call it so, nor i got no idea of the thread.
You live on the territory where Poles are still majority (60 %) + 20 % in your capital and belive me they know what term "Kresy" means. No matter what language they speak or what they belive in.

According to Samuel Linde - a polonised Swede - (evil Poles ), "kresy" originally meant borderline between Poland and Crimean Khanate, in the area of the lower Dnieper.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the meaning of the term expanded to include the lands of the former eastern provinces of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, to the east of Lwów - Wilno line.

Anyway economically the "Kresy" region was the poorest in interwar Poland and had the lowest literacy level of the nation.

There's nothing to cry about.
Puritan no está en línea  

Sponsored Links
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #102
Depeched
Registered User
 
Depeched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,356
Likes (Received): 1090

Quote:
Originally Posted by uunxx View Post
Yep, if you have some heritage left in these areas that you keep nostalgic feelings about, then yes, it may be your "kresy". No problem, feel free to nostalgize about your lost greatness.
Than As I understood this thread is about nostalgic feelings

__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



Depeched no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #103
uunxx
Registered User
 
uunxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,396
Likes (Received): 502

Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
These deportations are sad, of course.
A question. Did they call themselves Poles in the first half of the 20th century or is it a consequence of the deportations? Do You know how they called themselves in the 19th, 18th or 17th centuries and what language they spoke? It could be (not necessity of course) not the same as your family speaks today and they back then (e.g. 17-19 centuries) may even do not know they live in the Borderlands and are Poles in contemporary meaning.
They haven't signed up Volksliste despite bearing evidently German surname (and in fact having lots of German genes), that would help them a lot during WWII (and would make big problems after but who knew). My grandgrandfather, being 15 voluntarily(he lied he's 16) joined Polish forces during battle of Lwów in 1918, to defend the city from the attacking Ukrainian army, so I think that yes, they were strongly attached to their "Polishness". This is case of many Poles, so called Poles and whatever Poles, after all the battle of Lwów was won by the inhabitants of the city with a little of outside help.
uunxx no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #104
uunxx
Registered User
 
uunxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,396
Likes (Received): 502

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Than As I understood this thread is about nostalgic feelings
Sort of
uunxx no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #105
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
These deportations are sad, of course.
A question. Did they call themselves Poles in the first half of the 20th century or is it a consequence of the deportations? Do You know how they called themselves in the 19th, 18th or 17th centuries and what language they spoke? It could be (not necessity of course) not the same as your family speaks today and they back then (e.g. 17-19 centuries) may even do not know they live in the Borderlands and are Poles in contemporary meaning.
Of course, it depends what territories you're asking about. Lviv/Lwow area citizens (Lendians) spoke in West Slavic languages since 9th century. In next centuries (14th-18th), probably they've seen themselves as subjects of the Polish Crown. Between late 18th (beginning of the nationalism) and 20th they've seen themselves as Polish citizens (of course, we know about Jewish and Ruthenian minorities).
RS_UK-PL no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #106
Depeched
Registered User
 
Depeched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,356
Likes (Received): 1090



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oaSsL_KSfx...0/0%5B1%5D.jpg

What about this.

Areas full of poles.
__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



Depeched no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #107
vilniusguide
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,359
Likes (Received): 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Polish, Belarusian or Lithuanian? Are your grandparents from territories of Vilnius?
Mix of those (nothing of a surprise in those Balkans).
Exactly, my Lithuanian relatives live in the 60 km. radius around Vilnius. Some of them now live on contemporary Belarus, somewhere in villages around Gervėčiai, some of relatives from that fraction went to live in other cities in Belarus, have Belarusian husbands and feel Belarusians. The others come from villages around Kaišiadorys (spread in Lithuanian cities) and the largest part in Vilnius. And they are not "Samogitians" or "occupants of Wilno", "not direct descendants of the lands and capital", as I was some times accused in this particular forum, after just showing the pictures of the capital of my country.
There is a cross, made by my grand-grand-grand father in the village in Vilnius region only 60 km. from the city, where he lived in 1880s, isn't it enough proof not to be called occupant and a person having no rights to his country's capital, after showing photos of it?
But I agree, who am I to be a descendant and owner of my capital and villages, those who live in Krakow or Lodz are true descendants of Kresy and Wilno!
They will ride to the village, will make a photo of the cross and will write in the forum: "Kresy, nice Polish cross".

Last edited by vilniusguide; September 25th, 2012 at 05:33 PM.
vilniusguide no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #108
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,301
Likes (Received): 3392

Depeched, your map just proves that lands surrounding Lviv/Lwow (West Slavic, Lendians territories) were/are under Ukrainian occupation, the same like Vilnius/Wilno was under "Polish occupation" between 1919-1939.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; September 25th, 2012 at 05:53 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #109
Depeched
Registered User
 
Depeched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,356
Likes (Received): 1090

Monument for Vilnius occupation which was built in Kaunas

__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



Depeched no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 06:08 PM   #110
vilniusguide
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,359
Likes (Received): 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
You live on the territory where Poles are still majority (60 %) + 20 % in your capital and belive me they know what term "Kresy" means. No matter what language they speak or what they belive in.
Are You sure about that?
They were Poles in the 19th century, because they spoke "Polish" (actually - Lithuanian in the first half and Belarussian in the second), and now they are Poles, despite speak Russian and Belarussian? Impressive logic!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Lithuania#History

Quote:
Many Poles in Lithuania today are the descendants of Polonized Lithuanians or Ruthenians.^
Quote:
^ Walter C. Clemens (1991). Baltic Independence and Russian Empire. St. Martin's Press. pp. 150. ISBN 0-312-04806-8. "In reality, many Poles in Lithuania were the offspring of Polonized Lithuanians or Belarussians."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_proper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Lithuania


wiki

Begining of the 20th century, according to Belarusians.


Lithuanian linguists.


viduramziu.istorija.net



viduramziu.istorija.net

Materyały antropologiczno-archeologiczne i etnograficzne, 1-3
Akademja Umiejętności w Krakowie. Komisja Antropologiczna, 1896

Quote:
Obszar języka litewskiego w gub. wileńskiej

Podobnie jak w Prusiech Wschodnich, gdzie Litwini ulegają wpływowi assymilujacemu sąsiedniego żywiołu niemieckiego, tak i w gubernii wileńskiej język litewski stale, choć zwolna, ustępuje naporowi słowiańszczyzny białorusko-polskiej. Fakt ten nie uszedł uwagi autorów "Starożytnej Polski". W opisie dawnego powiatu wileńskiego, jakim był za czasów W. Ks. Litewskiego, zaznacza Baliński: "powiat wileński zaludniony jest samymi Litwinami. Jednakże język litewski panuje ciągle dopiero od strony północnej, czyli z prawego brzegu Wilii; od południa pod samem Wilnem ustąpił polskiemu, dalej zaś mieszają się z sobą wsi mówiące po litewsku, z wsiami, gdzie mowa polsko-ruska jest w użyciu. Wszakże między ludem wiejskim język litewski przeważa w tym powiecie obie poprzedzające mowy. W niektórych miejscach, chociaż nazwiska wsi i nawet mieszkańców są czysto litewskie, zapomniano już języka rodowego. Dawne inwentarze, czyli spisy włości, dowodzą, że zmiana ta początek swój bierze od wojen szwedzkich za Jana Kazimierza, które spoinie z morową zarazą po nich grasującą, w kraju wiele wypleniły ludności. Nowi osadnicy z głębszej rusko litewskiej części W. Księstwa przybyli przyłożyli się do zmiany językowej między pozostałymi mieszkańcami". Jako miejscowości, w których okręgu mowa litewska dotychczas panuje, są wymienione: Kiernów, Muśniki, Mejszagoła, Giedrojcie, Widziniszki, Pobojsko, Niemenczyn, Dubinki, Worniany, niektóre wsie około Solecznik. O dawnym powiecie oszmiańskim powiedziano w temże dziele: "Język litewski między ludem wiejskim trwa dotąd w powiecie oszmiańskim: naprzód ku granicy powiatu lidzkiego, w Dziewieniszkach, Narwiliszkach i Surwiliszkach, w Lipniszkach, Gieranonach i w okolicznych włościach; od wileńskiego powiatu w Graużyszkach, Wialbiatowie, Klewicy, a z drugiej strony w parani Solskiej, około Jakientan; od granicy powiatu nowogrodzkiego w Baksztach starostwie; w parafii Trabskiej, około Tokarzyszek, w całej parafii Iwiejskiej. Jadąc z Oszmiany traktem Olszańskim do Wiuzniewa, niema mowy litewskiej; dopiero się zaczyna w Łazdunach. Są tam wśród mowy ruskiej wioski po litewsku mówiącem znajduje się nawet w okolicach tamecz nych starostwo zwane Łitewskie. Również mówią po litewsku w tej części powiatu dawnego oszmiańskiego, która obecnie składa powiat zawilejski (dzisiejszy Świeneiański) około Swiencian, w Dangieliszkach i t.d. W dawnym powiecie lidzkim, według tego samego źródła, językiem litewskim mówią jeszcze po rzekę Dzitwę, w Zyrmunach, Bienakoniach, Bolcienikach, około Ejsyszek i nawet za Lidą do Niemna. Wszakże i za tą rzeką jadąc ku Zdzicciołowi w sionimskie znajdują się dwie wsi pośród Rusinów po litewsku mówiące. Są to zapewne osady przoz wychodźców pruskich podczas wojen krzyżackich założone.
Quote:
Względnie najnowsze dane o obszarze językowym litewskim znajdujemy w "Słowniku Geograficznym" w artykule Drą Józefa Bielińskiego "Wilno". Pod względem etnograficznym, gub. wileńską zamieszkują Litwini i Słowianie, a także w znacznej liczbie Tatarzy, Karaimi i Żydzi. Uczeni etnografowie przedsiębrali niejednokrotnie badania dla wykreślenia granic plemiennych Litwinów i Słowian.
Według dotychczasowych rezultatów, granica siedzib litewskich poczyna się od ujścia rzeki Rotniczanki do Niemna, stąd w górę z biegiem Rotniczanki do wsi Lutdalej w kierunku wschodnim, do wsi Kiennuszy, następnie posuwając się granicą, oddzielająca gub. wileńską od grodzieńskiej, do jeż. Dap i wioski Romanowo, czyli Romuwe, stąd w prostej linii od ujścia rzeki Pelussy, do jeziora tegoż nazwiska, około wioski Dubiczy, następnie w górę rzeki Pelussy, do majętności Pelussa. Dalej, po granicy parafii zabloekiej i rdańskiej, w górę po rzece Dzitwie, do ujścia jej, do rzeki Ossówki, z biegiem Ossówki do wsi Podworoncowa, a następnie na wschód do wsi Dajnówka, leżącej na prawym brzegu rzeki Zyżmy, stad w górę, trzymając się prawego brzegu Zyżmy do miasteczka Stok, od tego miasteczka do ujścia rzeki Oszmianki przy majętności Graużyszki, i z biegiem tej rzeki w dół z lewego brzegu do ujścia jej do Wilii. Następnie lewym brzegiem Wilii do miasteczka Michaliszki, stąd do północnego brzegu jeziora Świr, dalej na północny wschód w górę z biegiem rzeki Struny i Otry, a następnie w prostej linii do miasta Postawy. Idąc granica powiatu dzisieńskiego, do granicy gubernii kowieńskiej, następnie granica tej gubernii do Niemna i wreszcie po Niemnie aż do ujścia Rotniczanki.
[...]
Z powyższego okazuje się, że Litwini zajmują cały powiat wileński i trocki, północną część powiatu łidzkiego i oszmiańskiego i północno zachodnia część święciańskiego.


http://www.pogon.lt/402/czas2.html

http://www.laborunion.lt/memo/module...php?storyid=93

http://books.google.com/books?id=7Kr...epage&q&f=true

Quote:
For reasons given in the preceding two paragraphs I will not dwell on the so-called mowa prosta or język tutejszy, which is basically an uncodified and largely undescribed Belarusian vernacular spoken in the border region of contemporary Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia.
"From "Russian" to "Polish"– Vilna-Wilno, 1900-1925"
Author: Theodore R. Weeks; 2004, 30 pages
Nice article in English, pdf. file: http://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/2004_819-06g_Weeks.pdf

vilniusguide no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #111
Puritan
Registered User
 
Puritan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 396
Likes (Received): 1615

In demographic terms Vilnius was the least Lithuanian of Lithuanian cities, divided near evenly between Poles and Jews, with ethnic Lithuanians constituting a mere fraction of the total population (about 2-3% of the population, according to Russian 1897 and German 1916 censuses.

German-Lithuanian census of 1942

Poles 42%
Jews 28 %
Lithuanians 25 %
(despite explusions of Poles, holocaust etc.)

During 1944-1946 period about 50% of the registered Poles in Lithuania were transferred to Poland. 150,000 people left the country. During 1955-1959 period, another 46,600 Poles left Lithuania.

67 years later Poles are still majority in Vilnius area - 60%. In Vilnius (ca.20%).

Ps. Question: What Poles from Lithuania really mean when they say " I'm Polish."

Answer: They feel Polish and they belong to Polish nation. No matter what language they speak or what they belive in. Simply
Puritan no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 06:36 PM   #112
vilniusguide
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,359
Likes (Received): 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
During 1944-1946 period about 50% of the registered Poles in Lithuania were transferred to Poland. 150,000 people left the country. During 1955-1959 period, another 46,600 Poles left Lithuania.

67 years later Poles are still majority in Vilnius area - 60%. In Vilnius (ca.20%).

Ps. Question: What Poles from Lithuania really mean when they say " I'm Polish."

Answer: They feel Polish and they belong to Polish nation. No matter what language they speak or what they belive in. Simply
I will tell you a secret. There were ~260 000 Poles in Lithuania after the war. Before 1956, 250 000 were deported/repatriated to Poland. By the census of 1959 (after repatriation/deportation), there were again 260 000 of Poles in Lithuania. Very interesting, isn't it? Do You have any ideas?

Is it You who answered their question who they are, feel and belong to?
vilniusguide no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 06:42 PM   #113
leszekbombka
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: binders full of women
Posts: 44
Likes (Received): 0

"historic monuments built for or by Lithuanian-speaking Lithuanians"


...
........
leszekbombka no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #114
vilniusguide
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,359
Likes (Received): 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by leszekbombka View Post
"historic monuments built for or by Lithuanian-speaking Lithuanians"


...
........
Please show me at least one building in "Wilno" (excluding the occupation period) build by ethnic Pole.

Now more seriously. Better be more silent, or we will build huge, 10 meters high statues of Rapalionis, Mažvydas and Kulvietisto dwarf fake Pole - Mickiewicz statue in Vilnius and will put a huge stone with Polish inscription, that these men established Lithuanian language school in Vilnius, 259 years before the birth of Belarussian with Lithuanian roots (just another poet, who sang about love to Lithuania, stolen* by Poles) - Mickiewicz.

* Remember stolen crown of a king Vytautas?
* Remember stolen from the Grand Duchy, Ukrainian lands after Lublin union?
* Remember stolen Lithuanian capital after breaking the treaty?
* etc., etc.
vilniusguide no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #115
Puritan
Registered User
 
Puritan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 396
Likes (Received): 1615

Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post

* Remember stolen crown of a king Vytautas?
* Remember stolen from the Grand Duchy, Ukrainian lands after Lublin union?
* Remember stolen Lithuanian capital after breaking the treaty?
* etc., etc.
- Witold was not a king, emperor or ceasar or but only a duke - anyway he died several days before fake crown reached Lithuania

- Union of Lublin was voluntary mutual agreement between Poles and polonised Lithuanians

- funny thing that Suwałki agreement made not a single reference to Vilnius or the Vilnius Region but only to Suwałki region
Puritan no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #116
leszekbombka
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: binders full of women
Posts: 44
Likes (Received): 0

Why so nervous Grazvydas? I'll tell you a secret. I really love Lithuania. Love it just as much as Pomerania, Mazovia, Silesia or Masuria.

Now back to the beautiful architecture of Kresy Wschodnie, please!
leszekbombka no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 07:26 PM   #117
Igor L.
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kиїв | Kyiv
Posts: 6,715
Likes (Received): 4224

The wealthiest magnates of the Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian state were not Poles.

Ostrozhsky - the old Ruthenian (Ukrainian) Orthodox family.
Vishnevetsky - the old Ruthenian (Ukrainian) Orthodox family.
Radziwill - the old Lithuanian-Belarusian family.

Cathedrals and entire cities were built with money of Ostrozhsky, Vishnevetsky & Radziwill.
Igor L. no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #118
Depeched
Registered User
 
Depeched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 1,356
Likes (Received): 1090

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
- Witold was not a king, emperor or ceasar or but only a duke - anyway he died several days before fake crown reached Lithuania

- Union of Lublin was voluntary mutual agreement between Poles and polonised Lithuanians

- funny thing that Suwałki agreement made not a single reference to Vilnius or the Vilnius Region but only to Suwałki region
1. Do you know something about, as you said "fake" crown and dead of Vytautas. If not, stop talk nonsenses.

2. Union of Lublin was't agreement between Poles and polonised Lithuanians, it was agreement between Poles and Lithuanians for safety against Russia, especially for Lithuanians.

3. Suvalkai agreement was real peace threaty with foreign observers which poles broke after few days
__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



Depeched no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #119
Igor L.
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kиїв | Kyiv
Posts: 6,715
Likes (Received): 4224

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Ternopil/Tarnopol

A traditional Polish architecture?
Igor L. no está en línea  
Old September 25th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #120
uunxx
Registered User
 
uunxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,396
Likes (Received): 502

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
2. Union of Lublin was't agreement between Poles and polonised Lithuanians, it was agreement between Poles and Lithuanians for safety against Russia, especially for Lithuanians.
It was voluntary anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
3. Suvalkai agreement was real peace threaty with foreign observers which poles broke after few days
Have you read the agreement? No. Then read. http://web.archive.org/web/201107230...4/00038658.pdf

Quote:
Article i.
THE LINE OF DEMARCATION.
(a) A line of demarcation, which in no way prejudices the territorial claims of the two Con
tracting Parties, shall be fixed and shall be marked by the following points :...
Quote:
Article 5.
DURATION OF AGREEMENT, ETC.
The present Agreement shall come into force at noon on October 10, 1920. This date, however,
shall not affect the cessation of hostilities where this has actually taken place. The Agreement
shall remain in force until all territorial disputes between Poles and Lithuanians have been finally
settled.
Clearly not a peace treaty. Also Żeligowski's Mutiny happened 2 days before the agreement was supposed to come into force.
uunxx no está en línea  


Closed Thread

Tags
kresy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu