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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #141
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Lubomirski Palace in Czerwonogrod/Czerwonohrad





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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #142
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Czetwertynski Manor in Zhaludok/Zoludek



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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Very nice maps flying around.

However, those non-Polish ones from mid-XIX cent. seem like copied one from another... But if we assume they had presented accurate data, then it means that Poles would've been mega-strong in demographic development, so that in 50-years time (early XX c.) they reached the level of 50% of Vilnius population.

Ok, I'll upload two another maps on Litwa dated 1921 and 1929, which haven't come across yet.





http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...kiej_na_Litwie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
In demographic terms Vilnius was the least Lithuanian of Lithuanian cities, divided near evenly between Poles and Jews, with ethnic Lithuanians constituting a mere fraction of the total population (about 2-3% of the population, according to Russian 1897 and German 1916 censuses.

(...)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_...Vilnius_region


Also, AFAIK in the times of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the people whom we call Litwin ("true" Lithuanian ) were basically polonised Belarussians, whereas present-day Lithuanians were called Samogitians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
The wealthiest magnates of the Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian state were not Poles.

Ostrozhsky - the old Ruthenian (Ukrainian) Orthodox family.
Vishnevetsky - the old Ruthenian (Ukrainian) Orthodox family.
Radziwill - the old Lithuanian-Belarusian family.

Cathedrals and entire cities were built with money of Ostrozhsky, Vishnevetsky & Radziwill.
1/ Ruthenian = present-day Belarussian + Ukrainian

2/ Yes, those families would've been of Ruthenian origin. So what? The Polish culture & language had such a strong impact at the time that they chose to polonise. And the first step in their polonisation was the adoption of Polish heraldic rule (coat of arms).

On eg. Wiśniowiecki family:
Quote:
By late 16th century, the family converted from Orthodox to Catholicism and became polonized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi%C5%9Bniowiecki_family

If you wanted to show some kind of "Ukrainian" heritage on the example of Wiśniowiecki Family, then it's a pretty failed shot, as eg. Duke Jeremi Wiśniowiecki was so polonised (or shall I say "Polish"?) that he heavily fought against Cossacks, i.a. during the Chmielnicki Uprising.

Quote:
His military prowess earned him the nickname "Uzhas Kozachij" (Cossack's Fear).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremi_Wi%C5%9Bniowiecki


Actually, there may be an interesting parallel between the case of Jeremi Wiśniowiecki and Józef Piłsudski, who had Lithuanian roots himself (same as Lucjan Żeligowski), but perceived and considered Litwa (in part. Vilnius Region) to be the part of Poland after WW1.

So, dear friends from Lithuania and Ukraine, your elites themselves wanted to be Polish, and the Kingdom of Poland didn't have to apply any forced polonisation process. How's that?

Therefore, while discussing our past think about your future, and apply for Karta Polaka and/or Polish citizenship today!

Last edited by katsuma; September 25th, 2012 at 10:07 PM.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leszekbombka View Post

1595, first Lithuanian language printed book, released in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, in Vilnius.

vubiblioteka.files.wordpress.com

1918, Vilnius. Declaration of the Independence of Lithuania, breaking any ties with other countries with a capital in Vilnius.

straipsniai.lt



varniai-museum

1928, Vilnius, the official capital of Lithuania, occupied.

According to historians, almost 100 000 Poles came to the city at this short period of time.
voruta.lt

All the interwar maps of Lithuania looked like this, with occupied part shown. The inscription says: "The part of Lithuania, STOLEN by Poland".

veidas.lt

"Remember enslaved Vilnius!", "We are sad with lost capital, but we will be happy when will liberate her!", "Hey, World, We declare You, We will never renounce Sacred Vilnius!".

gintarinesvajone.lt

1939, Vilnius is again part of Lithuania. An unbelievably large mob gathered at the Aušros Vartai [The Gates of Dawn] chapel with the painting of the Madona of the Gates of Dawn, sacred for every Catholic Lithuanian, to pray and Thank God, they again have their sacred capital, the city they adore the most in the whole World.


1989. Lithuania with the capital Vilnius will be again Independent from various occupants, she never surrendered in history.

viv.lt


1990.

valstietis.lt/

There were again tanks, again someone tried to occupy us, again were killings, but Lithuania, Vilnius made it and will always make it again if will be necessary.

vtv.lt15min.lt

1920. Giedraičiai near Vilnius, fallen Lithuanians, defending their home...

wiki

1991, Vilnius.


Independent contemporary, modern, free Lithuania and its singing and waving eternal capital Vilnius.

15min.lt


15min.lt


15min.lt


15min.lt
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #145
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I'm really happy for Lithuania
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #146
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to be continued...
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
1595, first Lithuanian language printed book, released in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, in Vilnius.

http://vubiblioteka.files.wordpress....2/dauksa-3.jpg
vubiblioteka.files.wordpress.com

(...)
Nice presentation.

As a matter of interest, has Vilnius been (at any stage) recovered from foreign occupants by Lithuanians themselves?

I'd like to add another pic, but I don't know if it fits into the above liberation saga. Maybe it does...


source1, source2

(Lithuanian soldiers taken captive by Armia Krajowa after the Battle of Murowana Oszmianka and let go in underwear)
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Old September 25th, 2012, 11:01 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
It was Polish-Lithuanian state not PL-LT-Ruthenian.
This is the official name of the country but in fact it was the Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
All Ruthenian and Lithuanian upper classes adopted Polish culture and later converted to catholicism or protestantism like Wiśniowiecki or Radziwłł so don't get exited.

"Ruthenian and Lithuanian upper classes were drawn towards the more Westernized Polish culture, political and financial benefits of such transition, as well as, sometimes, by the administrative pressure exerted on their own cultural institutions, primarily the Orthodox Church. The conversion to the Roman Catholic faith (and to a lesser extent, Protestant) was often the single most important part of the process as for Ruthenians of that time being Polish culturally."
In Asia many Chinese, Koreans, Malays had converted to Catholicism and Protestantism, many Chinese & Malays speak English... They have become part of the English nation?
Many of the Ruthenians (Ukrainians) were to speak Polish but they were not Poles.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor L. View Post
This is the official name of the country but in fact it was the Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian state.



In Asia many Chinese, Koreans, Malays had converted to Catholicism and Protestantism, many Chinese & Malays speak English... They have become part of the English nation?
Many of the Ruthenians (Ukrainians) were to speak Polish but they were not Poles.
It's most reasonable to let people themselves tell who they are.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 11:45 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
According to historians, almost 100 000 Poles came to the city at this short period of time.
It's simply impossible.

Vilnius population:

1897 - 154.000 (Lithuanians 2%)

1916 - 139.000 (Lithuanians 2%)

1918 - 129.000 (Lithuanians 2 %) Lithuania independence declaration - capital city without Lithuanians - Poor Poles and Jews didn't knew that there were living under Polish occupation

1923 - 167.000 ( Lithuanians 2 %)

1931- 196.000 (Lithuanians 1 %)

1939 - 210.000 (Lithuanians 1 %)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius#Demographics

The total fertility rate in Poland before World War II peaked in the 20s and 30s. Population growth was among highest in Europe. People came to live and work to most developed parts of Poland like Upper Silesia, Greater Poland or Pomerania. "Kresy" including Wilno area were relatively undeveloped and peripherally situated.

Ps. If you are interested:

Polish Radio Wilno - intro - 1927




Wilno by night - 1938 - sorry only in Polish

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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:28 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
1595, first Lithuanian language printed book, released in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, in Vilnius.

vubiblioteka.files.wordpress.com
If this book was printed today it would be seized by Lithuanian language comission, author would be fined and probably jailed for using an illegal letter "W"
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:11 AM   #152
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Butrymowicz Palace in Pinsk



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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #153
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This thread clearly lacks the focus on architecture which is needed here.

We warned you to refrain from political fights and similar. Obviously you ignored the warnings.

So we as the mod team had the agreement to close this thread again for an indefinite time.
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