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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:18 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Ulv View Post
Do you really believe that such a small nation of lithuanian balts has made such a big empire? God, how you can even think like that? So you suppose that lithuanian balts were the brain of the project, and other nations just keep an eye on your huge borders!

I have no more questions about that, now i know the real truth about "who was the GDoL's boss"...
Baltic (pagan) tribes, first of all. Anexedby sword and weddings. many ruthenian croniclers wrote about barbarians from the north.I would recommend you to read an analyses of letters of Gediminas. he was a genius, my friend.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:29 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila



Sorry, but it doesn't matter how you called them, what matters is how they called themselves. And as I said before, since you are in the English-speaking forum, you should use their names in the true, internationally recognised version.

.
And do you really know how they called themselves? For instance Jogaila. We should remember that he was a pagal before he became a King of Poland. So yeaaaa in a land of stubborns pagans, in GDL he called himself in a polish form.

First of all, I think it would be wise to study lithuanian language. My surname is Mantvydaitis. In 17 cent. it was the same like now.
Montwid - polish form? I think the answer would be yessss
I will say Warsaw, Varšuva, but I am not obliged to say (pronounce) Warszawa. Simple.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:41 AM   #83
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Erm... no. You're making a mistake by drawing a parallel between the old Lithuanians (Litvins/Litwini) and new Lithuanians (Balts), who AFAIK in late GDL times (17-18th c.) were basically referred to as Samogitians.
My Polish friend, stop writting that "litwinism" bull****. Everyone know that this theory is based on diletant historian from Belarus. His theory is widely dismissed even in his homeland. Read i.e S.J. Rowell about early stage of pagan GDL. I think it is probably the best book written in objective manner if you do not trust lithuanian historians....
Nonsense, because lithunians are balts, not slavs. Litwin can be refered only to translation in early chronicles. Even Vytautas/Jogaila thought differently than thouse "litvinismbulshitism" supporters... There are no old/new, afaik and bla bla bla.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 11:03 AM   #84
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Hi Guys I really don't want to spoil this thread (truly amazing photos from katsuma), but I would like to understand what's the difference between language used by Lithuanians in the 16th century and let's say the 19th century. Was it the same language as used by Lithuanians today...or was it Ruthenian, Polish, etc.?

I have two maps of languages in territories of Lithuania:
16th century
19th century

Is it true that the first written record in the Lithuanian language was from the 16th century? How is it possible that so many people were using Lithuanian language (based on the first map) and there were no books printed in this language?

Kaunas/Kowno/Коўна





Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 22nd, 2012 at 11:15 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 11:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
And who is/was the first poor soul? Some Belarusian, I suppose.
Yep. Late Mikola Yarmalovich. A pseudo-historian who is not taken seriously even by Belarusan professional historians. However his "theories" found some fertile ground among an everlasting group of chauvinists in Poland.

Quote:
Anyway, here is some piece of information, which might be a cure for you, provided that you are a curable species...

- "Lithuanians in historical meaning" (Polish Wikipedia): http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litwini...u_historycznym
Katsuma, you should know better than trying to counterargument genuine and documented first hand witness accounts with some anonymous Wiki waffle.

Words of Vytautas, Jogaila and Dlugosz indadvertedly prove that the Lithuanians of GDL times = nowadays Lithuanians. Period.

As for Mickiewicz and whom he considered to be Lithuanians - here's an extract of his lecture in College de France on March 24th 1843:

"You are familiar with the history of the Lithuanian nation. Being thrown into the Baltic coast (...) surrounded by the sea and river Vistula, Nemunas and Daugava, separated by woods, forests and lakes from the Finnish and Slavic tribes, it has always remained alien to the neighbors (...) Then suddenly it became the conqueror and the lawmaker of the Slavic countries. (...) it keeps its traditions and language and, as it seems, does not remember about their relationship with Rus and Poland. (...) They call the Russians - "gudai", this probably comest from goths, and they call the Poles - "lenkai"...

And one more thing. Mickievicz has invented a female name Grażyna - can you please advise what does it mean in Polish?

Quote:
Yeah, but the project management failed, and the GDL elites dropped their Lithuanian-Ruthenian culture and got Polonized.
True. And since then everything went down the hill. Polonization of the elites brought two lethal things to the GDL:
1. Religious intolerance and chauvinism.
2. Perverse practice of nobility privileges and (later) Veto power in crucial decisions.
Both of these things finally brought the GDL and the whole Commonwealth to it's sad end.

Quote:
Anyway, we're talking about GDL elites and not any ordinary folk. Therefore, I'm asking you again, if the first written record in Lithuanian language dates back to 16th century, how could the likes of Radziwiłł or Tyszkiewicz have been called Radvila or Tiskevicius then?
Have you ever heard of verbal tradition? Ever since first documents in Lithuanian appeared, the names there were written just as they are now. Which means these forms already existed when the documents appeared, and were not "invented" in XIX century as you would like us to believe.

Quote:
BTW, those families did not exist at the time of the Union of Horodło 1413, where GDL nobles were granted equal status with Polish nobility and selected 47 boyars were adopted by Polish families and started using their Polish coats of arms (the one mentioned in the union's document as Rodwił/Rodywił got the Sulima coat of arms, whereas Radziwiłł family held the coat of arms Trąby)...
The fact that they were not mentioned in some 500 year old document does not mean that they did not exist. Anyway - Radvila is a pagan Lithuanian name consisting of two roots. It basically means "The one who finds hope". Radziwill is just a derivative which means nothing. Same as Jogaila and Jagiello.
Therefore - we stick to our own original forms of names. And, to be honest, we absolutely do not care wether anyone has objections to it.

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No, I don't think it was Emanuel Władysław, as there seems to be no "Emanuel" on the epitaph. Closer to the bottom one can see the date of 1684, but it's not clearly legible...
I guess this is the guy: http://genealogia.grocholski.pl/gd/s...lang&id=033097

the picture is a scan from an album of Bulhaks Vilnius photography.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 11:43 AM   #86
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Yeah, but the project management failed, and the GDL elites dropped their Lithuanian-Ruthenian culture and got Polonized.


when we are speaking about lithuanian project we are talking about the roots of GDL - GDL was made by Lithuanian dukes, it was actually pagan state until the end of XIV-XV century. Lithuanians - Baltic tribes.
The got polonized for several of reasons. By the way, the strongest and most influent noble families did not adopted Polish mindset. Radvilos-Radziwiłł remain more or less ant-polish despite the fact that they used polonised form of their names/surnames. Even nobility actions - for instance, paryicularly families of Valimantaitis/Goštautai - clearly show their opinion towards the spread of lithuanian/local language (in the light of Renaissance).
One question - do you have in Poland many people with such surnames? Because the surname Radvila (Radziwiłł - is a derivative form from Radvila; some people, scientists think that dz is even more historically correctconsiderin the fact, that dz is very common in lithuanian dialects) is not rare and common in present Lithuanian.
First of all, before Chirstiniasation/baptism of GDL, there were no written language tradiitions. Yes, there were ruthenian language and written old-ruthenian language traditions, but this was more common to easter/souther parts of GDL and it is understandable why.
There were no written language tradition (although there are many sources of baltic language, which dates back to 14 century, but they are quite fragmentic and on this occasion - not important). many noble names actually were derived form their ancesrtal names, only written in Cronicles, other documents (in latin; back then, in Poland) by Poles. So mostly of their name had polonized forms. Even though they were written according to pronouncation.. How it was written in the earliest documentation, which prove their nobility rights, though they were used later in the same manner. We are speaking about XV-XVIII cent. and abou a State, which had a strog nobility tradition. Do not forget that. You cannot say (or maybe think) that surname Mantvydaitis-Manvydaitis (Moniwid) is a polish surname. It is not and comes not form any kind of slavic/polish word. My earlier example with my own surname - Man(t)vydaitis.
Because of that their nobility name were written and used in Polish forms. That's all.

As I know " the first book written entirely in the Polish language appeared in this period. It was a prayer-book by Biernat of Lublin (ca. 1465 – after 1529), called Raj duszny (Hortulus Animae, Eden of the Soul), printed in Kraków in 1513 <...>" form wikipedia, tag: Polish literature.
In Prussia/GDL - martynas Mažvydas 1547 and Mykolojus Daugša/Daukša - 1599. But speakig frankly, there were many cases and sources in which can be found wriiten lithuanian (baltic in generally) words. SIC : lith. Mikalojus Daugsza, in polish: Mikołaj Dauksza and Mikolay Dowksza. Sz-> š. Czechs are using the same adaptations. But look how is the surname translated into Polish - it sounds like pronounced Daugša.



Quote:
Anyway, we're talking about GDL elites and not any ordinary folk. Therefore, I'm asking you again, if the first written record in Lithuanian language dates back to 16th century, how could the likes of Radziwiłł or Tyszkiewicz have been called Radvila or Tiskevicius then?
There were no necessity to write their names in lithuanian. Look to Albertas Goštautas ( latin: Albertus Gastold, Polish: Olbracht Gasztołd, ruthenian: Альберт Гаштольд) example, his actions.

On the other hand, even ruthenian people in GDL "public sector" knew lithuanian language (teritorically - lithuanian speaking-inhabited lands). There are many facts which show that lithuanian language was used in public live (for instance pre-Court cases).

Quote:
BTW, those families did not exist at the time of the Union of Horodło 1413, where GDL nobles were granted equal status with Polish nobility and selected 47 boyars were adopted by Polish families and started using their Polish coats of arms (the one mentioned in the union's document as Rodwił/Rodywił got the Sulima coat of arms, whereas Radziwiłł family held the coat of arms Trąby)...
And the granding of Polish coat of arms (in pagal GDL there were no tradition of coat of arms, except the King's Flag - the earliest written source about Vytis is about (Grand) Duke Vytenis and dates back to 13cent, Teutonic Cronicles) made them Poles?

Honestly to say, considering the roots of GDl, we must first of all to look deeper inside the earsliest stage of GDL. GDL as a project was created, trivially speaking, by sword and marriages. Ohhhh it seems that some poles do not think that Baltic people, particularly lithuanian, could do that. Well, denying this, you will deny such event like Battle of Saule/Battle of Durbe, which, asessing the geopolitical conditions of that time, had a strong impact on the creation of centralised state. My point is that we must firstly assess the medieval period of GDL and have a better perception of lithuanian language, culture. Than everyting would be more easier.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 11:51 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Hi Guys I really don't want to spoil this thread (truly amazing photos from katsuma), but I would like to understand what's the difference between language used by Lithuanians in the 16th century and let's say the 19th century. Was it the same language as used by Lithuanians today...or was it Ruthenian, Polish, etc.?

I have two maps of languages in territories of Lithuania:
16th century
19th century

Is it true that the first written record in the Lithuanian language was from the 16th century? How is it possible that so many people were using Lithuanian language (based on the first map) and there were no books printed in this language?
There is no difference. Lithuanian language hasn't changed much and is considered to be the most archaic among living Indo-European languages.

Books and writing were spread by the church. Lithuania was the last pagan state in Europe therefore it was quite late to acquire it's own grammar.

Majority of the population remained illiterate up until XIX century - just as in Poland or anywhere else in Europe.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Hi Guys I really don't want to spoil this thread (truly amazing photos from katsuma), but I would like to understand what's the difference between language used by Lithuanians in the 16th century and let's say the 19th century. Was it the same language as used by Lithuanians today...or was it Ruthenian, Polish, etc.?

I have two maps of languages in territories of Lithuania:
16th century
19th century

Is it true that the first written record in the Lithuanian language was from the 16th century? How is it possible that so many people were using Lithuanian language (based on the first map) and there were no books printed in this language?
hy, mate. It was and it is the same language. Only a bit more "dialectic" than know. Lithuanian language is considered to be the most archaic language of indoeuopean family group of languages so it is understandable why it has many different forms and thousand of synonymous words. Even in 15 century one Polish writter had figured out the simmilarities between latin-lithuanian language and had given many examples of words. but if we take into account researches made in 19 cent., by particularly Sweden, Germany liguists, we will find out that "linguistic island" in present Belarus (north part) were absolutelly archaic and even common to old-prussian language. For instance, a month - mėnuo (lithuanian, derives from "a moon", in those territories - "dievaitis" which means "a god").
16-17 century - lithuanian-polish-latin vocabulary, made by a Priest (Konstantinas Sirvydas) of Vilnius which was actualy based on Vilnius region lithuanian dialect.
You won't find any differences between present lithuanian language and 16 century.
When you are reading books from 16-17 cent. yes, you can find some polish/ruthenian/germanic/fino-ugric words, but they are abosultelly fragmentic.

The first book - ye, but there are many other, in some cases fragmentics, records of language, for instance so-called Basel Epigram, the oldest written Prussian sentence (1369) (Kayle rekyse, thoneaw labonache thewelyse/Eg koyte poyte/nykoyte pe^nega doyte). Rikis - a Duke; Kails - hy.


From 16 century there are many books printed in lithuanian language, only many of them are religiuos, becouse of jesuits influence and power in former GDL. For instance, noble Merkelis Giedraitis (Melchior Giedroyć) translated books into lithuanian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkelis_Giedraitis

On the other hand Reformation had a strong impact. In XV-XVI century were printed many books in lithuanian language. On internet you can find a database with scanned copies of thoise books.

Last edited by Prosp; November 22nd, 2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:21 PM   #89
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As I know " the first book written entirely in the Polish language appeared in this period. It was a prayer-book by Biernat of Lublin (ca. 1465 – after 1529), called Raj duszny (Hortulus Animae, Eden of the Soul), printed in Kraków in 1513 <...>" form wikipedia, tag: Polish literature.
Printed - probably (some historians are more convinced that first book was printed in 1508 - "Historyja umęczenia Pana naszego Jezusa Chrystusa")
Written - no

As the printing was invented by Johannes Gutenberg around 1450, older texts have been written...The Bull of Gniezno issued on July 7, 1136 by Pope Innocent II contains the earliest written record of the Polish language. The exclusively written texts in the Polish language appeared in the 14th century (for example Holy Cross Sermons, St. Florian's Psalter).

Thank you for all your responses. So Lithuanian language was in use by majority of Dzūkija (and of course, in other ethnographic regions of Lithuania) between the 11-19th century and then was replaced by the Polish language in the 20th century (forced Polonisation during the occupation?), but these lands were always inhabited by descendants of Balts who spoke Lithuanian?

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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:44 PM   #90
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Printed - probably (some historians are more convinced that first book was printed in 1508 - "Historyja umęczenia Pana naszego Jezusa Chrystusa")
Written - no

As the printing was invented by Johannes Gutenberg around 1450, older texts have been written...The Bull of Gniezno issued on July 7, 1136 by Pope Innocent II contains the earliest written record of the Polish language. The exclusively written texts in the Polish language appeared in the 14th century (for example Holy Cross Sermons, St. Florian's Psalter).
Thanks. I did not know about this. Printed books - yes, Mažvydas, Daukša. But as I sad, there are written texts from earlier time.

I made a mistake. Some linguists, historians are convinced that the oldest written lithuanian language text is form 1501, here you can see a scanned copy - http://lietuvos.istorija.net/lituani...vemusu1503.htm
There are some historians which state that Jogaila translated first prayer texts in lithuanian language after baptism of GDL. But at the moment i do not have the right source. maybe others will find it..
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 03:20 PM   #91
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Thank you for all your responses. So Lithuanian language was in use by majority of Dzūkija (and of course, in other ethnographic regions of Lithuania) between the 11-19th century and then was replaced by the Polish language in the 20th century (forced Polonisation during the occupation?), but these lands were always inhabited by descendants of Balts who spoke Lithuanian?
Your welcome. Sorry for a long text, but I think it is to difficult to speak shortly about very complicated history amd relationships.

First of all, lithuanian language in Dzūkija, neither Aukštaitija, nor Žemaitija (Samogtia) was not replaced by polish language. Even in 19 cent, after 1863 Uprising, lithuanian language (and polish) was forbidden and lithuanian printed-booksmugslers or illegal school did they job well and saved language from russification. It is very interesting thing.
Polish language was used by noble people (in Samogitia polish language in 20 century was not so popular between nobles, romantism my friend J another reason – there were many „small landlords“) and by the Priests. Actually in XVII-XIX cent. many polish speaking priests were replaced by lithuanian speaking priests, because local people did not understad a word and so this is why pagan tradition/ relicts remained until 20cent. Nobles constituted only a small part of society in GDL/Crown-Poland/Commonwealth.

Secondlly, speaking about present day lithuanian region Dzūkija, polonisation did not affect this region. It is simple why: mostly all part of Dzūkija was less populated than other regions in Lithuania. In Dzūkija you can find probably the most archaic varianations of Lithuanian language, the coutrysides/farms (there were many prussian settlement, i.e descendents of barts – prussian baltic tribe) were widespread across quite lare territory, many of them remained in old styled planning because of Valakų reforma (do not know how to write it in polish and english, but as mentioned above this land reform was introduced by Bona Sforza, developed by Sigismund Augustus/ Ostapas (Eustachijus) Valavičius ( polish: Ostafi Wołłowicz)(very lithuanian mindei noble); there were no large towns and so on. So, lithuanian language was totally isolated, even like in all Lithuania/GDL, there lived tatars, jews, poles, caraims, ruthenians.

Speaking about present day norther part of Belarius territory – yes, there lived (majority until 20cent. lithuanian speaking people. Once I had a chance to look at the list of peasants which had „belonged“ to manor/landlords estate and to appeals to courts) descendents of baltic people. There were majority of lithuanian, but also there were many ruthenians. We can even speak about „lithuanian speaking islands“- phenomenon- far away from present Lithuanian border – for instance Zietela district (belarus: Dziatlava) town. Norwegian linguists had explored Ziatela dialect in the mid. of 20cent. There were many "islands" after WWII.

Yes, these land were allways inhabited by balts. Maybe not allways a majority consisted of lithuanians: other baltic speaking people like old-prussians, yotvingians (Jaćwingowie) lived there, for instance a census by the clergy of the Belarus Grodno area in 1860 had as many as 30,929 inhabitants identifying themselves as Yatviags. Many Poles had explored the heritage of yotvingians.
Another good source – toponims, names of lakes, rivers, forests, countryside etc.
Famous Polish baltist Jan Otrębski (legendary figure in the field of research of Lithuania language) had concluded the same position ( particularly in the eastern part of Lithuania where he had his investigations).
Polonisation was more common in Vilnisu region, because this regions was absolutelly multiethnic and after plague a demographical situation had increasingly changed. I think that Vladislavas Sirokomle (Ludwik Władysław Franciszek Kondratowicz) during his journey across Lithuania, in Vilnius region had written such story : (main point) “ I am a Catholic. I am a Lithuanian and a Pole. I can speak polish and lithuanian.” It clearly show that region was absolutely…medley. And people did not pay an attention on whay they are. This story was taken from a talk with a peasant, if I remember well.
Frankly, I do not know wheter a word replace would be proper in this context. Many languages were used and it is difficult to say. Tutejszy/ po prostu dialect consists of polish, ruthenian, lituanian words - some kind of mix.
20century was a sad age for all of us. But I can tell a story from my own familly. They live in so called Litwa środkowa. My greatgrandfather did not know any word in polish, his younger brother served as a hussar in Polish army, and only my granddad learned polish at school and later, during interwar, when he lived in Vilnius. But the main problem was that every Catholic were considered automatically to be..a Pole. And priests in Churches, which had take a place in popultion census kept this position. Polska Wiara: I am a Catcholic, so I am pole even though I am lithuanian. As we can see, pole can have a bit differen perception.

For instane, former Gdansk mayor, wounderful man, Andrzej Januszajtis. He was born in present day Belarus territory (Lida), but take a look to his surname. It is an absolutelly different surname and it is not difficult to understand that suffic –ajtis/ -aitis is common to baltics. This clearly show a mix of different cultures in a very small region.

Last edited by Prosp; November 22nd, 2012 at 03:26 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:43 PM   #92
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I think everyone of us something know about famous Commonweath military leader, important person – Jonas Karolis Chodkevičius (Katkevičius) ( in polish: Jan Karol Chodkiewicz). But I think many of us did not know about lithuanian war-folk songs about him and his battles. Next week I will try to translate few songs into english language and maybe post them.
One of the songs was performed by local folk band:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdCcqSGCYo

Interesting, but it seems that local people pronounced his surname as Katkus. It is understandableChodkie,- may sound like Katkie-; On the other hand, Katkus refers to folk/dialectic pronouncation common to nothern/eastern lithuanians, samogitians and i.e compare to 60 proc. of lithuanian surname.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 06:38 PM   #93
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Vilnius St. Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox rites church

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First wooden ortodox church was built here in 1347. Current church was built in 1514 by Konstantinas Ostrogiškis (pol. Konstanty Ostrogski, bel. Канстантын Іванавіч Астроскі) after famous victory in Orša/Orsha battle between Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Moscow armies. XVI c. transffered for Uniates. Church 1821 was closed, here was established gymnasium of Orthodoxes. During 1941-1991 church was closed, now transfered for Greek Catholic community. Mass are held in the Ukrainian language.
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilniau...5%BEny%C4%8Dia


wikipedia.com

My own photos:

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32839[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32838[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32837[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32841[/IMG]

Belfry

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32836[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32840[/IMG]
__________________
>> MY PHOTO THREAD ABOUT LITHUANIA
>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:29 PM   #94
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Very interesting discussion going on... I'm afraid I won't be able to join you today, as my Wife is complaining that I have been spending too much time on SSC recently... I'll be back tomorrow.

Just for RS_UK-PL: while considering the range of Lithuanian vs. Polish languages in the past, I think you can also look at those maps:
- Duchy of Warsaw (1807-15): http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%..._of_Danzig.JPG
- Congress Poland (1815 -1864/1915): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...Poland1815.jpg
- http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20110715044257
- http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20111020083716

Another example of the Lithuanian classic architecture below.

Village inn in Jaszuny/Jasiunai near Wilno/Vilnius (pre-WW2)

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Old November 22nd, 2012, 11:26 PM   #95
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I'm really confused now First of all, why Lithuanian-speaking Balts were part of the Duchy of Warsaw, and later Congress Poland? Secondly, why linguistic/ethnographic maps posted by katsuma are completely different than Depeched ones? Some areas of today's Lithuania are inhabited by Polish-speaking majority (even when over 200k Polish-speaking Lithuanians have been expelled or killed during/after WW2)...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Po...Barry_Kent.png. How come?

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 23rd, 2012 at 01:05 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post


I'm really confused now First of all, why Lithuanian-speaking Balts were part of the Duchy of Warsaw? Secondly, why linguistic/ethnographic maps posted by katsuma are completely different than Depeched ones? How it become that some areas of today's Lithuania are inhabited by Polish-speaking majority (even when over 200k Polish-speaking Lithuanians have been expelled or killed during/after WW2)...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Po...Barry_Kent.png?
Check this one :
http://lithuanianmaps.com/images/1912_Polska.jpg

and very imporant map:
Europa Polyglotta, published in 1730 by Gottfried Henselius

http://mapsof.net/map/europa-polyglotta

Zoom it and try to read a prayer text on present day Lithuanian territory. Guess what is the langauge.

Another document : http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geo...y/Tom_XIII/524
the last paragraph.

Quote:
First of all, why Lithuanian-speaking Balts were part of the Duchy of Warsaw?
What do you have in mind? Marijampole, Kalvarija, Seiniai, Vygriai as you know, are not territories in which you would find many polish speaking people (even in 19cent.). I guess the problem is quite simple: back then government/authorities had not concerned about people nationality and ethnic dependence.
--
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How it become that some areas of today's Lithuania are inhabited by Polish-speaking majority <...>
Maybe you have any sources that would show a migration from Poand (ex Crown) to GDL (particularly Vilnius region? One question - why particularly Vilniusregios? it was quite far away from Polish territories. Assessing that there were no trains, only you foot and hirses....and the land near Vilnius are badlans..it doesn't make sense).
How it become..? Hm. After WW2 many russian speaking people in Vilnius region went to Polish schools. Many of them have russian surnames. I am a liberal person and I don't want to say that they are not Poles if they believe in that, but this is a fact. For instance, one journalist from Poland could not speak with them in Polish when she was making her reportage. Famous singer in Lithuania once said : "my grandparents are from Ukraine, but I am a lithuanian polish girl". I guess people from Poland have difficulties to understand such kind of situation.
Another thing - as i mentioned - during interwar, lithuanian language was banned (actually, mosty lithuanian teachers) from local school, particular in countrysides. Maybe my grandfather would speak in polish, but his mother tough him in lithuanian. So I hope you will understand why lithuanians sometimes are doing everthing to protect their language Yes, many things were and are confusing, but everything depends on our attitude toward many controversial questiants and your attemps to understand differences..
on the other hand, Pole can mean not only nationality, but person religion dependence (particularly in multiethic region) and because of that, after population census (pre WW2), despite any kind of political-local actions, now statiscs can be misleading.
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Last edited by Prosp; November 23rd, 2012 at 12:58 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:33 AM   #97
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I've found the source of this map: Samuel Orgelbrand's "Universal Encyclopedia" (T.18, p.422). The map is showing the % of ethnic Poles in the Polish-Lithuanian area (it was published under the Russian rule and all the information had to be accepted by Russian censor).

What's your opinion on the following map from 1916: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._1916_roku.jpg? It makes a bit more sense, if you'll compare it with the areas where Polish-speaking population is today:
* Lithuania
* Belarus

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Originally Posted by Prosp View Post
This one is very inaccurate (Polish language is almost in the whole Eastern Europe, but not on territories of today's Poland), so it doesn't look like a good source.

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Originally Posted by Prosp View Post
After WW2 many russian speaking people in Vilnius region went to Polish schools. Many of them have russian surnames.

For instance, one journalist from Poland could not speak with them in Polish when she was making her reportage.
Probably you mean Northern Kresy dialect (which is slightly different than ordinary Polish, because it was isolated for last ~70 years) and I suppose their names are of the Ruthenian origin (not Russian). I assume that Poles really don't care if Polish-speaking Lithuanians are West Slavs or East Slavs (Ruthenians), if they are preserving Polish culture, language, heritage, etc.

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Another thing - as i mentioned - during interwar, lithuanian language was banned (actually, mosty lithuanian teachers) from local school, particular in countrysides.
And Polish language was banned in the independent Lithuania after 1918 or was not?

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Originally Posted by Prosp View Post
Yes, many things were and are confusing, but everything depends on our attitude toward many controversial questiants and your attemps to understand differences..
I agree with you completely. Thank you for your quick responses. You're a star

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 24th, 2012 at 12:51 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:39 PM   #98
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This one is very inaccurate (Polish language is almost in the whole Eastern Europe, but not on territories of today's Poland), so I it doesn't look like a good source.
Well, this map is quite interesing, because of sample of lithuanian language. rare thing.

Quote:
Probably you mean Northern Kresy dialect (which is slightly different than ordinary Polish, because it was isolated for last ~70 years) and I suppose their names are of the Ruthenian origin (not Russian). I assume that Poles really don't care if Polish-speaking Lithuanians are West Slavs or East Slavs (Ruthenians).
Northern Kresy - tutejshy?
The dialect which is common in particularly south-east part of Lithuania/Vilnius region (Šalčininkai, near Belarus border) and it was formed in the process of assimilition between many cultures and languages. After ww2, there were even "variations of dialect", for example, if one part of region was close to lithuanian populated territory, there would be ~40 per cent of lithuanian words; if one part was close to belarus, so there you will find more ruthenian origin words...



Quote:
And Polish language was banned in the independent Lithuania after 1918 or was not?
If we are speaking about polish schools in Lithuania during interwar, the answer would be not. For instance:
~1922 - 27 schools, ~3400 pupils
~1927 - 24 schools + 2 private schools.
~1930 - 30 schools.

In Kaunas there was a special Polish credit union and so on.
http://www.autc.lt/Public/HeritageOb...=frykas&type=2

Only the main problem was action of local authority. yes, 20cent, ther were problems in every country, but the actions, behaviour of local authority members, priests and so on to attracts different nationallity (it was the main criterion at that time) children to attend one or another school (polish, german, lithuanian etc.) actually had not changed even today....It is a question of political culture.

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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:46 PM   #99
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Some Drawings of Gothic examples of Lithuania

XVI c. Bernardinai church

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32976[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32977[/IMG]

XV-XVI c. Vilnius St. Anna church

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32978[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.************/forumas/picture.php?albumid=1077&pictureid=32979[/IMG]
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>>> OLD LITHUANIA



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Old November 25th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #100
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About XVI-XVII c. defence systems of Lithuania cities will be later.
These systems had:
Vilnius,
Kaunas,
Biržai,
Klaipėda,


XVI-XVIII c. Biržai castle

Quote:
the best preserved bastion fort in Lithuania located in Biržai town, the North of Lithuania. It is a renaissance building which is a cultural and architectural monument.

Building works of the castle started in 1586 by an order of Mikalojus Radvila Perkūnas (pol. Krzysztof Radziwiłł Piorun). The castle then was fenced with fillings and trenches filled with waters from a pond ( the oldest pond in Lithuania, nowadays known as a Širvėnos lake). An access to the castle was only available while walking a bridge built on the eastern bulwark of the castle. Inside the Biržai castle there were stables, food storages, arsenal, a mansion.
During the war with Sweden, Biržai castle was an important Lithuanian fort. In 1625 the castle was under a siege by Sweden military forces. 8000 Sweden soldiers besieged the Biržai castle. After the second assault they smashed into the castle and at the end the castle was ruined. Swedens took away 60 cannons. The Biržai castle was demolished by Sweden 2 more times during its` history. Despite that, the castle was an example of European civil and war buildings in 16th-17th centuries. In 1811 the castle was finally restored by graphs Tiškevičiai (pol. Tyszkiewicz, bel. Тышкевічы), in addition to this, Russian Emperor Alexander ordered to preserve ruins of the castle. In the 19th – 20th centuries a beautiful garden was lied around the castle. The system of protecting fillings and trenches remained till nowadays maybe these remains were conserved in 1955-1962. Years passed thus more and more parts of the former potent castle were restored and rebuilt. Powder flasks, a bridge, gates, central and the western walls – all these parts were professionally renovated and the whole castle became a significant part of regional history museum.

Nowadays Biržai castle serves as a museum and as a venue for various cultural events and performances. The inside history museum “Sėla” is established in 25 halls inside the Biržai castle. Visitors here can get acquainted with history of Biržai town and region, in addition, there is an authentic and the only one of its` kind in Lithuania tile furnace made in 17th century exposed.
http://www.way2lithuania.com/en/trav.../birzai-castle

My travel photos (2011 01 18)

1. Firstly bridge and remains of gate of castle


2. Major palace of castle














Rebuilding arsenal of castle


Photo by Aukselis from ************/forumas

Aerophoto


www.aruodai.lt


www.selonija.lt

Attack of Biržai in 1704 by Sweden army


************


By Almis from ************/forumas
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>>MY PHOTOS FROM KLAIPĖDA (MEMEL)
>>> OLD LITHUANIA



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