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Old November 25th, 2012, 08:40 PM   #221
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Wisniowiec Palace (now Ukraine)











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Old November 26th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #222
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- Berlinka collection should be shown at museum (otherwise politicians will soon give away all artworks )
Where did you hear this?
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Old November 26th, 2012, 09:53 PM   #223
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Where did you hear this?
http://www.wprost.pl/ar/52407/Odsiec...lonska/?I=1095

Btw, interesting article: http://historia.org.pl/2012/10/06/za...jny-swiatowej/

And brilliant website: http://muzeumutracone.pl/en/galeria/?gid=12

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Old November 27th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #224
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it must be a quid pro quo exchange of equivalent value. Poland is too poor and we have lost far too much of our heritage to be giving anything away. Shocked by what I read in these articles, how politicians treat national treasures as bribes for something else.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old November 27th, 2012, 01:36 AM   #225
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i would like to recommend nice blog about Tricity ( gdansk,gdynia sopot/ Poland)! http://www.3cityguide.com/
i hope that u'll like it !
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Old November 27th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #226
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it must be a quid pro quo exchange of equivalent value. Poland is too poor and we have lost far too much of our heritage to be giving anything away. Shocked by what I read in these articles, how politicians treat national treasures as bribes for something else.
Some politicians don't really care about Poland, therefore I'm not surprised. Berlinka should be shown at museum, so when something will be missing, everyone will know about it.

Artworks looted by Nazis from Poland during WW2 are treated as stolen by European law (The Commission for Looted Art in Europe - CLAE) and must be returned unconditionally to their rightful owners in Poland (no exchange whatsoever).

Nevertheless, Germans still have many priceless collections looted during Partitions of Poland in a few museums, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gem%C3%...alerie,_Berlin. In my opinion, these artworks might be exchanged (of course, like Urbanista1 wrote, Poland should obtain items of equivalent value).

http://www.zabytki.pl/sources/straty/wstep.html
http://www.kki.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dz...s/kultura.html
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Old November 27th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #227
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Bielsko












Gabriel Narutowicz monument


New gymnasium


Main hall


Swimming pool


Gym


A dam on the Wapienica river

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Old November 27th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #228
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Cieszyn






Tomb of Przemyslaw II, Duke of Cieszyn


Museum in Cieszyn




















Habsburg Palace (Duchy of Cieszyn)


Three Brothers well


Orlowa

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Old November 27th, 2012, 08:17 PM   #229
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Pszczyna




Pszczyna Palace




Bison Reserve in Pszczyna


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Old November 27th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Some politicians don't really care about Poland, therefore I'm not surprised. Berlinka should be shown at museum, so when something will be missing, everyone will know about it.

Artworks looted by Nazis from Poland during WW2 are treated as stolen by European law (The Commission for Looted Art in Europe - CLAE) and must be returned unconditionally to their rightful owners in Poland (no exchange whatsoever).

Nevertheless, Germans still have many priceless collections looted during Partitions of Poland in a few museums, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gem%C3%...alerie,_Berlin. In my opinion, these artworks might be exchanged (of course, like Urbanista1 wrote, Poland should obtain items of equivalent value).

http://www.zabytki.pl/sources/straty/wstep.html
http://www.kki.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dz...s/kultura.html
I have read the links you posted. Amazing! Do you know what paintings and art objects in gemaldegalerie were looted from Poland? Can you imagine the kind of museum collections Poland would have had?!

From wikipedia article:

"The collection was first located in the Royal Museum located near Lustgarten on Unter den Linden, a famous Berlin street. The collection began largely with the collection of Frederick William I, known as the Great Elector and Frederick the Great.[1] It was along the centuries enlarged not only through acquisitions but also by means of war booty and contains many objects looted from Poland. These were paintings obtained from the royal collections in 1656 (Polish Vasas collection),[2] in 1740 (Silesian collection of John III Sobieski) and in the beginning of the 19th century (Stanisław Augustus collection), as well as from many confiscations after the Partitions of Poland.[3]?"

Given the cultural content of Berlinka, it could be considered as part of an exchange of equal value, restoration is the key here. There are many Polish items in Berlinka that could remain. Also, Russia still has much of Zaluski library collection.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

Last edited by Urbanista1; November 27th, 2012 at 09:08 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #231
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now read this...

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/337545/Drugi-polski-Vinci/

however, the chance that Russia will release it is fairly small...
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Old November 28th, 2012, 12:54 AM   #232
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And we should not forget about lost artworks during Deluge (all must be returned unconditionally, Treaty of Oliva):
- first copy of "Bogurodzica" (1506)
- first copy of "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" by Copernicus (1543) and 45 other Copernicus works
- Thornan bell (one of the largest medieval bells in Europe, largest in Sweden, stolen from Torun)
- Laski's Statute (the first codification of law published in the Kingdom of Poland, 1505)
- Portrait of Wladyslaw IV Vasa by Rubens
- Ceremonial armor of Sigismund Augustus
- Portrait of John II Casimir by Daniel Schultz
- "Chronica Polonorum" by Maciej Miechowita (1521)
- "Polonia" by Marcin Kromer (1577)
- And many, many, many, many...more

Among others, Swedish troops stole such items as:
* Polish state records (Metrica Regni Poloniae),
* Royal library from Warsaw,
* libraries from Ujazdów, Toruń, Bydgoszcz, Malbork, Poznań, Grudziądz, Gniezno, Lublin, Jarosław, Wilno, Sandomierz, Radom, and Kraków, also archives and libraries from most towns of Royal/Polish Prussia. Most of stolen books are kept in University Library at Uppsala, Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangl and Brache families,
* all Warsaw palaces were completely robbed - Kazanowski Palace, Ossoliński Palace, Daniłłowicz Palace, Primate Palace, Bishophoric Palace, Royal Palace and Royal Castle,
* robbed and destroyed were castles and churches and almost all Polish towns, the most notable examples are Golub-Dobrzyń, Krzyżtopór, Wieluń, Krasnystaw, Wawel, Tęczyn, Lanckorona, Pieskowa Skała, Kielce, Sandomierz, Chęciny Niepołomice, Ojców, Wiśnicz, Łobzów, Kruszwica, Rabsztyn.

Interpelacja nr 8276
Livrustkammaren
Muzeum Armii w Sztokholmie
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje31/text08p.htm

Wprost (also, TVP) - I just cannot believe that Polish government is so passive in this situation (!!).
That's why sometimes I really hate Poland

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 28th, 2012 at 01:24 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 02:06 PM   #233
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there are some lone heros

http://tvp.info/informacje/polska/hi...j-bony/8030975
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Old November 28th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #234
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Gatsby, I see it as a rather bad joke. There's a huge difference between some loan from the 16th century and Polish artworks, collections, books, documents, royal memorabilia, etc. located in Germany, Russia or Sweden. Artifacts looted during Deluge, Partitions of Poland, WW2 should be recovered asap.

Ignacy Jan Paderewski (famous pianist and composer, the second Prime Minister of the Republic of Poland)


And some (not related ) models presenting summer collection in Warsaw

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 28th, 2012 at 05:06 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #235
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Quote:
Artifacts looted during Deluge, Partitions of Poland.
I suppose in he light of international law any legal action in these cases is doomed to fail due to lapse of time. simple as that.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #236
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I dont' agree, time is irrelevant to legitimacy, look at the creation of the state of Israel as an example, time meant nothing for this case of restitution or even look at the case of the Elgin marbles. Yes, the British probably saved them from further damage, but like treasures of the Polish royalty and aristocracy the provenance is indesputible and there must be restitution no matter how long it has been. It is the right thing to do. But of course we may also get claims against us for restitution.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 09:45 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Some politicians don't really care about Poland, therefore I'm not surprised. Berlinka should be shown at museum, so when something will be missing, everyone will know about it.

Artworks looted by Nazis from Poland during WW2 are treated as stolen by European law (The Commission for Looted Art in Europe - CLAE) and must be returned unconditionally to their rightful owners in Poland (no exchange whatsoever).

Nevertheless, Germans still have many priceless collections looted during Partitions of Poland in a few museums, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gem%C3%...alerie,_Berlin. In my opinion, these artworks might be exchanged (of course, like Urbanista1 wrote, Poland should obtain items of equivalent value).

http://www.zabytki.pl/sources/straty/wstep.html
http://www.kki.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dz...s/kultura.html
I agree that it should be shown, at least some of the better pieces. I read in a Polish article, that the couple of pieces that were handed off to the East Germans back in the day, a painting was returned to the Poles in a mutual exchange. As for getting stuff back from the partition days, well this might be a little tough as this was a completely different time period. It never hurts to try.

I am hoping that there are people out there who are monitoring this priceless collection and how it's being handled. My fear is that Poles can be "bought" too easily and some pieces disappear mysteriously.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 09:58 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Gatsby View Post
now read this...

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/337545/Drugi-polski-Vinci/

however, the chance that Russia will release it is fairly small...
What's this about?
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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
And we should not forget about lost artworks during Deluge (all must be returned unconditionally, Treaty of Oliva):
- first copy of "Bogurodzica" (1506)
- first copy of "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" by Copernicus (1543) and 45 other Copernicus works
- Thornan bell (one of the largest medieval bells in Europe, largest in Sweden, stolen from Torun)
- Laski's Statute (the first codification of law published in the Kingdom of Poland, 1505)
- Portrait of Wladyslaw IV Vasa by Rubens
- Ceremonial armor of Sigismund Augustus
- Portrait of John II Casimir by Daniel Schultz
- "Chronica Polonorum" by Maciej Miechowita (1521)
- "Polonia" by Marcin Kromer (1577)
- And many, many, many, many...more

Among others, Swedish troops stole such items as:
* Polish state records (Metrica Regni Poloniae),
* Royal library from Warsaw,
* libraries from Ujazdów, Toruń, Bydgoszcz, Malbork, Poznań, Grudziądz, Gniezno, Lublin, Jarosław, Wilno, Sandomierz, Radom, and Kraków, also archives and libraries from most towns of Royal/Polish Prussia. Most of stolen books are kept in University Library at Uppsala, Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangl and Brache families,
* all Warsaw palaces were completely robbed - Kazanowski Palace, Ossoliński Palace, Daniłłowicz Palace, Primate Palace, Bishophoric Palace, Royal Palace and Royal Castle,
* robbed and destroyed were castles and churches and almost all Polish towns, the most notable examples are Golub-Dobrzyń, Krzyżtopór, Wieluń, Krasnystaw, Wawel, Tęczyn, Lanckorona, Pieskowa Skała, Kielce, Sandomierz, Chęciny Niepołomice, Ojców, Wiśnicz, Łobzów, Kruszwica, Rabsztyn.

Interpelacja nr 8276
Livrustkammaren
Muzeum Armii w Sztokholmie
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje31/text08p.htm

Wprost (also, TVP) - I just cannot believe that Polish government is so passive in this situation (!!).
That's why sometimes I really hate Poland
Ok, next time there's a threat to Poland, give everyone a f*cking gun! I am not joking.
Will Poland ever get anything back? What's this Treaty of Oliva?

"That's why sometimes I really hate Poland"
That's why I sometimes hate Poland's neighbors. No offense.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #240
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Quote:
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Poland is too poor
Have to disagree with that. I've been around.
To me, Poland would be even wealthier.
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