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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
What's this Treaty of Oliva?
The Treaty or Peace of Oliva was one of the peace treaties ending the Second Northern War (1655-1660). Article 9 of the Treaty of Oliva states that Sweden should return all stolen goods.

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Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
What's this about?
To keep it short and sweet, there's Polish family (Bielutins) in Moscow, which owns tens of paintings by Rubens, Velįzquez, El Greco, van Dyck, etc. Also, they have sculptures by Michelangelo and among other incredibly prescious items, there's "Madonna with a book" by Leonardo da Vinci. Mr.Bielutin (unfortunately) died this year and Mrs.Bielutin wants to give all artworks to Poland, whenever inheritance proceedings will be completed (usually 6 months). However, Russian government is doing everything what they can to keep the artifacts in Russia (if Mrs.Bielutin will die, then whole collection will be repossesed by Russia).

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 30th, 2012 at 09:03 PM.
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Old November 29th, 2012, 12:42 AM   #242
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This could really sour Polish-Russian relations unless Russia does the right thing. After centuries of plundering Poland, if Russia did the honest and legal thing, they would gain much in mutual relations with Poland. It would be a big step forward.

I'm all for improving Polish-Russian relations, let bygones be bygones if we don't repeat errors of past. If something were to mysteriously happen to Mrs. Bielutin aside from dying of old age or such, it would just remind all of us that Russia will never change and will never treat us justly and respectfully.

I think it might be time to start a petition, what do you think?
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old November 29th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
Ok, next time there's a threat to Poland, give everyone a f*cking gun! I am not joking.
Will Poland ever get anything back? What's this Treaty of Oliva?

"That's why sometimes I really hate Poland"
That's why I sometimes hate Poland's neighbors. No offense.
Hating Poland is a bit strong, but Poles have over and over again during the last 200 years repeatedly weakened and sold out their own country in exchange for foreign favours and then our more aggressive neighbours come in and tear us apart. We are also to blame for this endless mess. Look how young Poles make no effort to build the now free and prosperous Poland, they prefer to live in London or anywhere else - no offense of course, there are legitimate reasons for emigrating but 2 million? Can't blame some for doing so, Poland has been the victim of a failed political and diplomatic ideology for two centuries that has never provided security for Poland. Tusk and Komorowski are taking the country in a different direction I am glad to see we already see dividends of that approach.

Any government that sells out Poland now would get kicked out of office.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old November 29th, 2012, 04:14 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The Treaty or Peace of Oliva was one of the peace treaties ending the Second Northern War (1655-1660). Article 9 of the Treaty of Oliva states that Sweden should return all stolen goods during the Deluge.



To keep it short and sweet, there's Polish family (Bielutins) in Moscow, which owns tens of paintings by Rubens, Velįzquez, El Greco, van Dyck, etc. Also, they have sculptures by Michelangelo and among other incredibly prescious items, there's "Madonna with a book" by Leonardo da Vinci. Mr.Bielutin (unfortunately) died this year and Mrs.Bielutin wants to give all artworks to Poland, whenever inheritance proceedings will be completed (usually 6 months). However, Russian government is doing everything what they can to keep the artifacts in Russia (if Mrs.Bielutin will die, then whole collection will be repossesed by Russia).
Then let's send a moving truck to Mrs. Bielutin's, and fast. I really hope Russia does not get their hands on this.
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Old November 29th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #245
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I think it might be time to start a petition, what do you think?
I'm not sure if petition will change anything. Anyway, I can sign it...Also, I think that EU institutions should be involved here, because we might lose extremely valuable works (worth around $2 billion) in favour of non-EU Russia.


Some modern buildings of KKO (Municipal Savings Bank)...

Rybnik


Chorzow


The Fountain "Potop" in Bydgoszcz (destroyed in WW2)




Old Market Square in Bydgoszcz (destroyed in WW2)


Biala



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Old November 29th, 2012, 03:47 PM   #246
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Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Warsaw (destroyed in WW2)






Modern interior




Saxon Garden in Warsaw (destroyed in WW2)





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Old November 30th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #247
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City Hall in Warsaw (destroyed in WW2)






Grand Theatre in Warsaw (destroyed in WW2)





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Old November 30th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The Treaty or Peace of Oliva was one of the peace treaties ending the Second Northern War (1655-1660). Article 9 of the Treaty of Oliva states that Sweden should return all stolen goods during the Deluge.
I guess a lot of it was destroyed when the royal castle Tre Kronor burned to the ground in 1697. I can't recall seeing any loot from the second northern war in any of our museums. The National Museum of Fine Arts is full of loot from Prague and Munich though.

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Old November 30th, 2012, 09:10 PM   #249
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I guess a lot of it was destroyed when the royal castle Tre Kronor burned to the ground in 1697. I can't recall seeing any loot from the second northern war in any of our museums. The National Museum of Fine Arts is full of loot from Prague and Munich though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_...e_Commonwealth

Even though Article 9 of the Treaty of Oliva stated that Sweden should return all stolen goods, all items are still kept in Stockholm and other Swedish locations. Several Polish kings (Jan Kazimierz, Jan III Sobieski, Stanisław August Poniatowski) sent official missions to Sweden, but without success. In most situations, Swedish authorities claimed that they did not know where stolen goods were. In 1911, Kraków's Academy of Science sent its own mission, which was made of renowned professors Eugeniusz Barwiński, Ludwik Birkenmajer and Jan Łoś. In Stockholm and Uppsala they found 205 manuscripts and 168 rare Polish books, describing their foundings in a report. In 2002, Warsaw Royal Castle organized exhibition "Eagle and Three Crowns", which presented many items stolen from Poland, and kept in Swedish museums. After the Deluge, the Commonwealth turned into a "cultural desert". Poland and Lithuania lost 67 libraries and 17 archives. Of all major cities of the country, only Lwów and Gdańsk were not destroyed, and when Swedish soldiers were unable to steal an item, they would destroy or burn it. In ruins were castles, palaces, churches, abbeys, towns and villages. As a result of Swedish invasion, few pre-Baroque buildings remained in Poland.

Among others, Swedish troops stole such items as:
- both Polish and Lithuanian state records (Metrica Regni Poloniae),
- royal library from Warsaw,
- libraries from Ujazdów, Toruń, Bydgoszcz, Malbork, Poznań, Grudziądz, Gniezno, Lublin, Jarosław, Vilnius, Sandomierz, Radom, and Kraków, also archives and libraries from most towns of Royal Prussia. Most of stolen books are kept in University Library at Uppsala, Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangl and Brache families,
- all Warsaw palaces were completely robbed - Kazanowski Palace, Ossoliński Palace, Daniłłowicz Palace, Primate Palace, Bishophoric Palace, Royal Palace and Royal Castle,
- robbed and destroyed were castles and churches and almost all Polish towns, the most notable examples are Golub-Dobrzyń, Krzyżtopór, Wieluń, Krasnystaw, Wawel, Tęczyn, Lanckorona, Pieskowa Skała, Kielce, Sandomierz, Chęciny Niepołomice, Ojców, Wiśnicz, Łobzów, Kruszwica, Rabsztyn.

Examples:
Copernicus Collection
Uppsala Cathedral (the biggest bell in Sweden, called Thornan, taken from Torun)
Armour of King Sigismund Augustus of Poland
Shield of Sigismund Augustus (here, here)
Portrait of King John II Casimir
Torso of King John II Casimir
Torso of Queen Ludwika Maria
Sigismund III Vasa by Rubens
Hunting horn of Sigismund III Vasa
Armour of young Wladyslaw IV of Poland (here)
Helmet of Wladyslaw IV of Poland
Bracelet of Queen Anna Vasa
And many, many, many more...

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; December 1st, 2012 at 12:42 AM.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 01:46 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_...e_Commonwealth

Even though Article 9 of the Treaty of Oliva stated that Sweden should return all stolen goods, all items are still kept in Stockholm and other Swedish locations. Several Polish kings (Jan Kazimierz, Jan III Sobieski, Stanisław August Poniatowski) sent official missions to Sweden, but without success. In most situations, Swedish authorities claimed that they did not know where stolen goods were. In 1911, Kraków's Academy of Science sent its own mission, which was made of renowned professors Eugeniusz Barwiński, Ludwik Birkenmajer and Jan Łoś. In Stockholm and Uppsala they found 205 manuscripts and 168 rare Polish books, describing their foundings in a report. In 2002, Warsaw Royal Castle organized exhibition "Eagle and Three Crowns", which presented many items stolen from Poland, and kept in Swedish museums. After the Deluge, the Commonwealth turned into a "cultural desert". Poland and Lithuania lost 67 libraries and 17 archives. Of all major cities of the country, only Lwów and Gdańsk were not destroyed, and when Swedish soldiers were unable to steal an item, they would destroy or burn it. In ruins were castles, palaces, churches, abbeys, towns and villages. As a result of Swedish invasion, few pre-Baroque buildings remained in Poland.

Among others, Swedish troops stole such items as:
- both Polish and Lithuanian state records (Metrica Regni Poloniae),
- royal library from Warsaw,
- libraries from Ujazdów, Toruń, Bydgoszcz, Malbork, Poznań, Grudziądz, Gniezno, Lublin, Jarosław, Vilnius, Sandomierz, Radom, and Kraków, also archives and libraries from most towns of Royal Prussia. Most of stolen books are kept in University Library at Uppsala, Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangl and Brache families,
- all Warsaw palaces were completely robbed - Kazanowski Palace, Ossoliński Palace, Daniłłowicz Palace, Primate Palace, Bishophoric Palace, Royal Palace and Royal Castle,
- robbed and destroyed were castles and churches and almost all Polish towns, the most notable examples are Golub-Dobrzyń, Krzyżtopór, Wieluń, Krasnystaw, Wawel, Tęczyn, Lanckorona, Pieskowa Skała, Kielce, Sandomierz, Chęciny Niepołomice, Ojców, Wiśnicz, Łobzów, Kruszwica, Rabsztyn.

Examples:
Copernicus Collection
Uppsala Cathedral (the biggest bell in Sweden, called Thornan, taken from Torun)
Armour of King Sigismund Augustus of Poland
Shield of Sigismund Augustus (here, here)
Portrait of King John II Casimir
Torso of King John II Casimir
Torso of Queen Ludwika Maria
Sigismund III Vasa by Rubens
Hunting horn of Sigismund III Vasa
Armour of young Wladyslaw IV of Poland (here)
Helmet of Wladyslaw IV of Poland
Bracelet of Queen Anna Vasa
And many, many, many more...
Ok;

*The Deluge refers to the Second Northern War which took place between 1655-1660 and the treaty of Oliva concerned that war specifically.

*The Copernicus collection was looted in the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648). It even says so in the link you provided.

*The Thornan Bell was taken in 1703 in the Great Northern War (1700-1721). It even says so in the link you provided.

*Could you provide sources that say the rest of the items you listed were in fact looted during the Second Northern War?
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Old December 1st, 2012, 01:47 AM   #251
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can't express adequately how impressed I am with what you have presented here in this thread RS UK-PL.

Sadly you paint a picture of a nation whose heritage has been picked clean, it's no wonder that so many of our new museums are interactive, relying on audio-visual reconstructions without many original artifacts. This may be the reason why some young Poles don't respect their heritage - because there is no surviving proof of it except in many cases ersatz reconstructions.

Poland had the misfortune of being located between the most aggressive nations in history and we were not aggressive enough.

as for all this war booty, it really should be returned to some extent once Poland can assure secure and suitable storage or exhibition of these artifacts. I think the Swedes would concede Poland's rights in this regard, they are a very civilized people.

This and what Russia and Germany holds can be considered as part of a comprehensive exchange or repatriation of artifacts that could then include the Berlinka Collection.

RS UK-PL, if you haven't already, why don't you present your case the Prime Minister Tusk, althouhgh I'm sure his knowledgeable advisors are apprised of this big picture, for me some of this is new news and mindboggling.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 02:11 AM   #252
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as for all this war booty, it really should be returned to some extent once Poland can assure secure and suitable storage or exhibition of these artifacts. I think the Swedes would concede Poland's rights in this regard, they are a very civilized people.
Over the years some sensitive artifacts have been returned or traded. Yet the general consensus is, and rightly so, that looting was an accepted part of war in which all nations partook and thus the loot is rightfully ours.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 02:22 AM   #253
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I agree with you this was practise, but where a treaty exists requiring return of artifacts then it should be honoured and of course sensitive items, like those pertaining to Polish kings etc also. I think all of this has to be carefully and calmly considered within the context of the last war and the unprecedented destruction and looting that Poland suffered once again. Plunder is not just an archaic vestige of the dark ages nor of the last war, it still happens, so it cannot be legimitized. Iraq was plundered a few years ago of many of its greatest Babylonian era artifacts, no one can deny they should be returned. The question is how far back to you go, where some artworks have become part of the heritage of other nations. What is fair, just and legal will have to be resolved ultimately.

Poland is only now coming to terms with its history and some matters will remain to be settled. 1989 to now marks the longest period of freedom in Poland in 3 centuries. There is lots to sort out along with repairing the economy and infrastructure.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 09:52 AM   #254
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can't express adequately how impressed I am with what you have presented here in this thread RS UK-PL.
Thank you for your nice comments, but I have to sadly admit that I didn't even scratch the surface.

Please click on the following link (few more examples of looted goods): http://swiadectwotestimony.republika.pl/armour_sob.html

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Old December 1st, 2012, 11:31 AM   #255
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I agree with you this was practise, but where a treaty exists requiring return of artifacts then it should be honoured and of course sensitive items, like those pertaining to Polish kings etc also. I think all of this has to be carefully and calmly considered within the context of the last war and the unprecedented destruction and looting that Poland suffered once again. Plunder is not just an archaic vestige of the dark ages nor of the last war, it still happens, so it cannot be legimitized. Iraq was plundered a few years ago of many of its greatest Babylonian era artifacts, no one can deny they should be returned. The question is how far back to you go, where some artworks have become part of the heritage of other nations. What is fair, just and legal will have to be resolved ultimately.

Poland is only now coming to terms with its history and some matters will remain to be settled. 1989 to now marks the longest period of freedom in Poland in 3 centuries. There is lots to sort out along with repairing the economy and infrastructure.
I agree, but I'm unsure as to which items RS_UK-PL is talking about. The Copernicus Collection was looted in the Thirty Years' War and the Thornan Bell was looted in the Great Northern War. And then he's just posting alot of pictures of personal armour which could've ended up here in a hundred different ways.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 11:58 AM   #256
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I agree, but I'm unsure as to which items RS_UK-PL is talking about. The Copernicus Collection was looted in the Thirty Years' War and the Thornan Bell was looted in the Great Northern War. And then he's just posting alot of pictures of personal armour which could've ended up here in a hundred different ways.
Most of the royalty artefacts (I'm sure that shields and armours were looted in 1655, paintings including Sigismund III Vasa by Rubens in 1656), valuable books, pictures, sculptures and other works of art were taken to Sweden between 1655-1658, when the capital city (Warsaw) was under siege and three times it was pillaged by the Swedish, Brandenburgian and Transylvanian forces.

http://histmag.org/Kungliga-Slottet....tokholmie-3085

I hope that everything will be recovered someday...

BTW (): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...h-drought.html

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Old December 1st, 2012, 02:44 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Most of the royalty artefacts (I'm sure that shields and armours were looted in 1655, paintings including Sigismund III Vasa by Rubens in 1656), valuable books, pictures, sculptures and other works of art were taken to Sweden between 1655-1658, when the capital city (Warsaw) was under siege and three times it was pillaged by the Swedish, Brandenburgian and Transylvanian forces.

http://histmag.org/Kungliga-Slottet....tokholmie-3085

I hope that everything will be recovered someday...

BTW (): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...h-drought.html
Could you actually produce a link where it says they were taken during the Deluge? And also; a link to the Treaty of Oliva? I can't find it in its complete form anywhere and none of the English or Swedish summaries mention anything about returning loot.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 03:05 PM   #258
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Could you actually produce a link where it says they were taken during the Deluge? And also; a link to the Treaty of Oliva? I can't find it in its complete form anywhere and none of the English or Swedish summaries mention anything about returning loot.
Wikimedia:
Hunting horn of Sigismund III of Poland (description: 1655 - transferred to Charles X Gustav of Sweden, now in Livrustkammaren)

Other examples (check description):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ade_shield.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_Augustus.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...22;aw_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...aw_IV_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...a_Habsburg.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hunting_gun.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...simir_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...se_Gonzaga.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...f_Poland_2.jpg

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Old December 2nd, 2012, 02:46 PM   #259
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Ceremonies marking the Polish Red Cross (PCK) Week...

Three Crosses Square in Warsaw
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 03:28 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Wikimedia:
Hunting horn of Sigismund III of Poland (description: 1655 - transferred to Charles X Gustav of Sweden, now in Livrustkammaren)

Other examples (check description):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ade_shield.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_Augustus.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...22;aw_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...aw_IV_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...a_Habsburg.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...d_III_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._of_Poland.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hunting_gun.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...simir_Vasa.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...se_Gonzaga.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...f_Poland_2.jpg
Granted, there seems to be a few royal artefacts on display (can't see why you included banners though since they were most likely grabbed during battles and not looted afterwards). However, I can't find any mention of that these items should be returned according to the Treaty of Oliva. The only mention I can find about a "return loot"-clause is on Polish wikipedia and according to the (google translated) article only loot from archives and libraries were to be returned.
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