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Old December 6th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #281
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now they can really get to work to build a country for low wages while making money outside Poland away from home in other EU states while kids wait at home for their parents. still a ways to go unless Europe once again f--ks up. makes me very angry.
Probably you'll find these statistics interesting.

Polish Emigration:
1921 - 116.000 (total population of Poland - 27.177.000)
1923 - 127.000 (pop. - 28.210.000)
1928 - 186.000 (pop. - 30.760.000)
1930 - 245.000 (pop. - 31.440.000)
1932 - 21.000 (pop. - 32.383.000)
1935 - 53.000 (pop. - 33.601.000)
1939 - 129.000 (pop. - 35.000.000)
2004 - 1.000.000 (pop. - 38.183.000)
2005 - 1.450.000 (pop. - 38.166.000)
2006 - 1.950.000 (pop. - 38.141.000)
2007 - 2.270.000 (pop. - 38.121.000)
2008 - 2.210.000 (pop. - 38.126.000)
2009 - 1.870.000 (pop. - 38.152.000)
2010 - 1.990.000 (pop. - 38.200.000)

Source: http://www.dws-xip.pl/wojna/2rp/ad6.html and http://www.stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/..._2004_2010.pdf

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Old December 7th, 2012, 04:37 AM   #282
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2004-2010 are not number of people newly emigrating each year but total number of emigrants since entry into EU, 2009 many returned but almost 2 mln still away. Big reason is in 1920's the standard of living and wage differential between Poland and Europe was almost non-existent. most people left in last few years due to higher wages and are sending money back, some are saving for a house in Poland, many won't come back. other issue is mentality of youth today, very materialistic.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 04:46 AM   #283
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the strangest thing is that some people don't care they are raising their child to be English. they even instist on speaking English at home. in which case I don't regret they won't come back. maybe their children will grow up to be better British citizens than they are Polish...
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:49 AM   #284
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:03 AM   #285
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:10 AM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Probably you'll find these statistics interesting.

Polish Emigration:
1921 - 116.000 (total population of Poland - 27.177.000)
1923 - 127.000 (pop. - 28.210.000)
1928 - 186.000 (pop. - 30.760.000)
1930 - 245.000 (pop. - 31.440.000)
1932 - 21.000 (pop. - 32.383.000)
1935 - 53.000 (pop. - 33.601.000)
1939 - 129.000 (pop. - 35.000.000)
2004 - 1.000.000 (pop. - 38.183.000)
2005 - 1.450.000 (pop. - 38.166.000)
2006 - 1.950.000 (pop. - 38.141.000)
2007 - 2.270.000 (pop. - 38.121.000)
2008 - 2.210.000 (pop. - 38.126.000)
2009 - 1.870.000 (pop. - 38.152.000)
2010 - 1.990.000 (pop. - 38.200.000)

Source: http://www.dws-xip.pl/wojna/2rp/ad6.html and http://www.stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/..._2004_2010.pdf
The actual number of resident population presented by Stat Office in 2011 is 37,2 million, but in true it`s no more then 36 million. 2 million chose emigration in last 20 years.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #287
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Big reason is in 1920's the standard of living and wage differential between Poland and Europe was almost non-existent.
I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
most people left in last few years due to higher wages and are sending money back, some are saving for a house in Poland, many won't come back
What hurts me the most, I don't see any chance for a quick change. I have 2 friends from Krakow (they worked at Motorola), who joined us (in UK) a few months ago. Their net income is more than 2,5 times higher than in Poland (and the company offered them free accommodation as well). Surprise, surprise, they work in one of the best paid sectors (IT), but there is a still huge gap in quality of life between the two countries. What surprised me most is that, according to them, the prices of properties and other goods are lower than in Poland. I suppose it is rather impossible, however, I can confirm that prices of properties or cars are in fact lower.

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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #288
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Sejm of the Second Polish Republic (severely damaged during WW2)




Senate


Presidential Palace


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Old December 7th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I agree with you.



What hurts me the most, I don't see any chance for a quick change. I have 2 friends from Krakow, who joined us (in UK) a few months ago. Their net income is more than 2,5 times higher than in Poland (and the company offered them free accommodation as well). Surprise, surprise, they work in one of the best paid sectors (IT), but there is a still huge gap in quality of life between the two countries. What surprised me most is that, according to them, the prices of properties and other goods are lower than in Poland. I suppose it is rather impossible, however, I can confirm that prices of properties or cars are in fact lower.
Interesting. Lithuania faces the same emigration problem. And faced in XIX/XX century.

What's about Your government actions? Do they take some kind of measures to make a good conditions in Your country that would help them come back and work in their homeland?
For instance, lithuanian IT specialists, which had emigrated to the UK or elsewhere to work in the same IT sector, are coming back because of investments like Barclay IT data center (900 empl) or Wester Union world IT data center (about 600 persons), scandinavian banks data/call centers and so on. Imho such investments and (on the other hand) strategies help not only economocally but to attract young, talented persons from emigration. Goals, tasks are to employ emigrants which have a work experience in the world leading companies. At the moment their net incomes are simmilar like they had in UK and so on.
I guess something simmilar is in Poland?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:17 PM   #290
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For instance, lithuanian IT specialists, which had emigrated to the UK or elsewhere to work in the same IT sector, are coming back because of investments like Barclay IT data center (900 empl) or Wester Union world IT data center (about 600 persons), scandinavian banks data/call centers and so on. Imho such investments and (on the other hand) strategies help not only economocally but to attract young, talented persons from emigration. Goals, tasks are to employ emigrants which have a work experience in the world leading companies. At the moment their net incomes are simmilar like they had in UK and so on.
I guess something simmilar is in Poland?
The problem is that companies like HP, IBM, Capgemini, Google, Nokia, Motorola, Microsoft, LG, Intel, Delphi, Samsung, Siemens, etc. see Poland as cheap outsourcing, not R&D centre.

BTW, Software Engineers at Motorola in Krakow earn (based on my friends feedback) around £700-1400 net per month (depending on experience).

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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:04 PM   #291
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The problem is that companies like HP, IBM, Capgemini, Google, Nokia, Motorola, Microsoft, LG, Intel, Delphi, Samsung, Siemens, etc. treat Poland as cheap outsourcing, not R&D centre.
But I guess that R&D sector not only exists, it is developing in PL? I have heard about Poland as a strong state with very developed automative industry. In Lithuania we know about Wrocław miracle and it is like an example to other Lithuanian cities like Šiauliai, Panevėžys how they must develop and work.
On the other hand, even though they treating like that, it gives an adventage. people have jobs, they are do ot emigrate, regions are developing and so on. Poland regions are well developed, in Lithuania, probably like in all Baltic states, it is huge big problem, and mostly people from "province" constitute the largest part of emigrants. Lithuania is regarded as 2 (3) town state. On the other hand, Poland is much bigger than LT.

For instance, R&D sector is considered to be priority sector in LT, particulary in areas in which Lithuania has expierence, traditions, human resources, knownledgement like in lasers, biotechnologies, IT. recently IBM R&D concluded a contract with universities and with a few companies.
Another thing is that such sectors are developing and foreign investors come because that state sponsors them, for instance, barclay recieved about or more than 100.000 eur.grant (aims differ depending on necessity), but at the moment this company is employing about 900 persons. Same situation was with Western Union data center, call credit, teva, thermo fisher. Imho, such kind of investment policy was and is the biggest winning after Independence. On the other hand, it doesn't help to stop emigration from other parts of Lith.

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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:16 PM   #292
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I agree with you.



What hurts me the most, I don't see any chance for a quick change. I have 2 friends from Krakow (they worked at Motorola), who joined us (in UK) a few months ago. Their net income is more than 2,5 times higher than in Poland (and the company offered them free accommodation as well). Surprise, surprise, they work in one of the best paid sectors (IT), but there is a still huge gap in quality of life between the two countries. What surprised me most is that, according to them, the prices of properties and other goods are lower than in Poland. I suppose it is rather impossible, however, I can confirm that prices of properties or cars are in fact lower.
prior to the crisis the real property prices in Krakow were very much blown up by international speculation, so the ratio of income to the price of 1 sq. m is here probably worst in Poland. accordingly, the theoretical wait time in order to buy a flat is also the longest. on the other hand, it's hard to best Krakow when it comes to the quality of life, and with all the investment in the pipeline it's going to be even better. 3 years ago it was estimated that around 4 th. foreigners worked in Krakow's outsourcing industry. the figures must have risen since. which is why as to emigration I'm more worried about the backwater Poland than the bigger cities. but of course there is a connection...

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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #293
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The 2011 inflow of foreign direct investments to Poland amounted to EUR 9,929 mln and was EUR 3,193 mln or over 47% higher than in the year prior, according to the newest data from the Economy Ministry, as reported on February 16, 2012.

PAIiIZ alone in 2011 saw through 53 foreign investment projects of the pooled worth of EUR 1,170.6 mln, which is 173% of the total value of the projects finalized in 2010. The 2011 investments are to create 10,284 jobs, PAIiIZ says.

According to the newest report (2012) by the agency from February 6, PAIiIZ is currently conducting 154 investment projects, the number being by 10 projects higher than the one seen at the same time last year. The pooled worth of the projects amounts to EUR 5,591 mln, while the number of jobs the projects might create, stands at 38,469.

IT sector
38 new business service centers, over 20 new investors in 2011, 100.000 employees until 2012 - those are the conclusions of the Association of Business Service Leaders in Poland (ABSL) Report „The Business Services Sector in Poland". The business services sector in Poland employs over 85 thousand specialists, which means an increase of 50 percent since 2009. Only in 2011 15 000 new jobs were created, and the sector's value increased by 3 billion and is now 12 billion zlotys. Poland effectively competes over outsourcing projects with such countries as India or China and is already one of top five locations on the global business services map.

http://www.paiz.gov.pl/publications/sectoral_studies

http://msp.gov.pl/portal/en/88/3046/..._for_2012.html

http://bpooutcomes.com/poland-takes-leading-role/
etc. etc.

Despite huge investments, 1,125,000 people are living abroad for 6-7 months or more. (GUS 2011 census)

Ps. According to 2011 census, at the end of march 2011, Poland had a population of 38,501,000 ( comparing to 37,963,000 in 1989).
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Old December 7th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #294
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Poland effectively competes over outsourcing projects with such countries as India or China and is already one of top five locations on the global business services map.
http://bpooutcomes.com/poland-takes-leading-role/
Rather than compete with countries such as Germany, France, UK, Netherlands in terms of development of new, innovative technologies, Poland has become a major outsourcing center comparable to India. I'm not saying that this is not a solution to the problem of high unemployment, however this way, we still lose the best students, engineers who emigrate to other, more developed European countries, to work on 'new ideas'. Not everyone dreams of working in a call center or as a cheap tool in hands of large corporations.

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on the other hand, it's hard to best Krakow when it comes to the quality of life
http://www.mercer.com/press-releases...#City-Rankings

PS. Don't get me wrong, I'm really impressed with Poland's growth in recent years and I hope that someday I'll go back to Poland (my dad owns dynamic, prosperous small business, so maybe even sooner than later...).

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Old December 7th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #295
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Let's say Krakow has the potential to be up there. but obviously a lot of factors come into play, incl. the level of income, which s one of the ingredients of the quality of life index...but on the home front, Krakow is a top location, all things considered.

Incidentaly, Krakow has just beaten its own record from last year for the number of tourists

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...22613&page=205
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Old December 7th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #296
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In Lithuania we know about Wrocław miracle and it is like an example to other Lithuanian cities like Šiauliai,
There's no such thing as "Wroclaw miracle"
Wroclaw is pretty much comparable with other major Polish cities when it comes to FDI or high-tech development, their mayor is just lucky to have the best public relations department in Poland. And concerning the city's debts I personally wouldn't call them an example of good management either.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #297
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In Lithuania we know about Wrocław miracle
OMG, the contagion is spreading

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Old December 7th, 2012, 09:47 PM   #298
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I agree with you.



What hurts me the most, I don't see any chance for a quick change. I have 2 friends from Krakow (they worked at Motorola), who joined us (in UK) a few months ago. Their net income is more than 2,5 times higher than in Poland (and the company offered them free accommodation as well). Surprise, surprise, they work in one of the best paid sectors (IT), but there is a still huge gap in quality of life between the two countries. What surprised me most is that, according to them, the prices of properties and other goods are lower than in Poland. I suppose it is rather impossible, however, I can confirm that prices of properties or cars are in fact lower.
I would not say there is a huge gap in quality of life, quality of life/standard of living was rated in 2010 for Poland as higher than UK and price of housing is in no way lower than in Poland. I know that, it is at least 3 times higher.

Also, there are many factors that contribute to standard of living and reasons for emigration. Cost of living in Poland is much lower than in UK, at least ½, by this I mean the big monthly cost outlays, groceries, rent, mortgage, property taxes, insurance, schooling, clothing and entertainment. But you have to compare like with like, downtown Warsaw with downtown London or Leeds etc. The difference in buying homes is striking. I bought 650 sq ft/58 sq m home in a great central location in Krakow for $95,000 and you can buy for about 10% more (not luxury) in Warsaw. You couldn’t buy in a central city in UK 75 sq metres for 50,000 Pounds. property taxes in Krakow are 40 zloty/yr and perpetual usufruct 100 zloties whereas my property taxes in Toronto are $4500/13,500 zloties, huge difference. Taxes for my business in Poland 8.5% flat tax, Canada about 35%. Yes, I make more in Canada, but you have to also factor in quality of life, being near family, who can assist you with so much like daycare for children, whereas in Toronto daycare is about $2,500-3,000/child/month and I’m sure it isn’t much better in UK. Some grocery items in Poland might be the same, but services are much cheaper overall, such as getting things fixed around the house, travel etc.

Whatever services UK offers for free or cheap they will not be able to keep up, Conservatives will be cutting and eliminating many benefits to reduce UK's massive deficit and one of the biggest debt-to-GDP ratios in the OECD next to Greece, Spain and Italy and Ireland.

Many factors contributed to mass emigration: wage differential, quality of life, divisive and destructive politicians like the Kaczynskis who have been sidelined lately, lack of economic growth, inefficient bureacrasy etc etc. Most of my relatives have come back with money earned and were able to buy/build beautiful homes, they work and have more free time, family support is great and they are in their own country. Some do jobs outside Poland to add to income. The biggest factor that contributes to emigration is this phoney propaganda that life is so much in any foreign country but POland, especially UK.

I know for a fact that there are Poles who run emigrant recruiting firms in UK who go on news sites and sites like these to post phoney info about how amazing life in UK is, meanwhile native Brits are leaving in droves still. Yes, it is better if you have a good job and parents who will help you buy a very expensive fancy place in a major city like London, Birmingham etc, otherwise life will be hard with fewer and fewer social services and no family support network you can fall back on. Britain wants our young white children to do jobs Brits don't want, don't kid yourself. Just like my parents came to Canada with masters degrees ended up working in mines and cleaning floors, their accumulated wealth allowed me to finally have a very good standard of living. The exceptions are the very gifted and talented, about 1-5% of those wo emigrate, they can get set up in one generation and enjoy a high standard of living after nostrifying their qualifications which may take 5 years or longer.

RS UK-PL, can’t imagine a company paying for your free accommodation in perpetuity, never heard of that unless you have very special skills. Wll it’s Poland’s loss and UK’s gain ultimately. Ironically the country that sealed the deal to give over Poland and rest of Central Europe to Stalin under Churchill is now benefiting from our greatest asset the most, our talented youth.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #299
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very well written
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #300
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Urbanista1, how can I prove to you that I'm not lying? Ok, let's begin. I've bought an apartment in Belfast City Centre for 59k (46sqm, very good standard, underground car park and furniture included). If you want, I can send you PM with photos and mortgage details.

I agree that groceries, insurance is cheaper in Poland, nevertheless I can't see the difference between costs of electricity, gas, land tax, etc. (overall we pay less than £100 monthly on top of our mortgage). Again, I can send you some bills if you don't believe.

Guys from Krakow are Software Engineers and our company is trying to attract people from Central/Eastern Europe so it's offering free accommodation for a couple of months, so new employees can adapt to a new environment.
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