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Old November 11th, 2013, 12:52 AM   #581
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Sad that capital of Lithuania was province city from 1795 till 1939.

What have simmilar tomb which was destroyed by Russians in XIX c. with Poland in the Interbellum? More.. this tomb is not by Wincenty Korwin Gosiewski, but by Aleksander Korwin Gosiewski (Aleksandras Korvinas Gosievskis)

Than Stanisław Radziwiłł (Stanislovas Radvila) dead in 1599, not in 1620. His father Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny (Mikalojus Radvila Juodasis), was one of main opponent against union of Grand Duchy of Lithuania with Poland. Just after his death union was written.

Lew Sapieha (Leonas Sapiega)
was one of the main who prepared III Lithuanian statute. Here was written that for foreigners (also and for Poles) was forbidden to hold public office and to acquire land in Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

At last you of course forgot to mention that for example Alexander Jagiellon (Aleksandras Jogailaitis) was buried in Vilnius as Grand Duke of Lithuania. Lithuanian nobles did not allow to transfer body for Poles, very simmilar story with Vladislaw Vasa (Vladislovas Vaza).
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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:35 AM   #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Than Stanisław Radziwiłł (Stanislovas Radvila) dead in 1599, not in 1620. His father Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny (Mikalojus Radvila Juodasis), was one of main opponent against union of Grand Duchy of Lithuania with Poland. Just after his death union was written.


Lew Sapieha (Leonas Sapiega)
was one of the main who prepared III Lithuanian statute. Here was written that for foreigners (also and for Poles) was forbidden to hold public office and to acquire land in Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
Stanisław Radziwiłł was a son of Elżbieta Szydłowiecka (Polish noble lady) and Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny (son of Polish noble lady Anna Kiszka and Ruthenian-Baltic nobleman Jan Radziwiłł). His father, Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny was founder of Drukarnia Radziwiłłowska (1553), the first printing office that was publishing books solely in Polish.

Some members of the Radziwiłł noble family that lived in Second Polish Republic:
Janusz Radziwiłł
Krzysztof Mikołaj Radziwiłł
Hieronim Mikołaj Radziwiłł
Artur Radziwiłł
Antoni Albrecht Wilhelm Radziwiłł
Edmund Ferdynand Radziwiłł
Karol Mikołaj Radziwiłł
Konstanty Mikołaj Radziwiłł II
Izabella Róża Radziwiłłowa

You forgot to mention that Lew Sapieha/Леў Сапега was Ruthenian nobleman (influenced by Polish and Ruthenian culture). He married Polish noble lady Dorota Firlej and later, Polish-Lithuanian noble lady Elżbieta (Halszka) Radziwiłł.

Some members of the Sapieha noble family that lived in Second Polish Republic:
Adam Stefan Sapieha
Leon Aleksander Sapieha
Stanisław Sapieha
Maria Sapieha
Róża Maria Sapieha

Other tomb monuments from Wilno that I've shown on the previous page included:
Piotr Wiesiołowski - Polish-Lithuanian nobleman
Aleksander Korwin Gosiewski - Polish-Lithuanian nobleman
Teodora Krystyna Countess Tarnowska - Polish noble lady

* Term Polish-Lithuanians usually means mixed families of Poles and Ruthenians (very rarely with a few Baltic relatives from centuries ago), who in the 15-16th century spoke mostly Old Ruthenian, and from the beginning of the 17th century onwards were majorly Polonised. The Third Statute that Depeched mentioned was written in Old Ruthenian language in 1588, and later translated into Polish in 1614.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:58 AM   #583
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Old November 11th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #584
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Guys, I love this thread, please keep posting!!!
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Old November 11th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #585
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Quote:
* Term Polish-Lithuanians usually means mixed families of Poles and Ruthenians (very rarely with a few Baltic relatives from centuries ago), who in the 15-16th century spoke mostly Old Ruthenian, and from the beginning of the 17th century onwards were majorly Polonised. The Third Statute that Depeched mentioned was written in Old Ruthenian language in 1588, and later translated into Polish in 1614.
Nonsense, Lithuanian origin were:

Radvilos
Pacai
Astikai
Čartoriskiai
Goštautai
Kęsgailos
Manvydai
Olelkaičiai


Only Kiszkowie family have clear Polish-Czech origin. Will be new probably for you , that Ruthenian nobles . didn't have equal rights with Lithuanian nobles in Grand Duchy of Lithuania until XVI c.

Old-Ruthenian (as you call) language was office language, which was not used in public life. What is more, in these written texts you can find a lot Lithuanian words. As I said, all these Famillies before polonization also spoke in Lithuanian. I could say that all nobles who lived in Lithuania used also Lithuanian language. For example exist letters written by Polish-Lithuanian noble Jan Aleksander Ludwik Karłowicz in clear Lithuanian language. Of course this thread is absolutely nationalistic and don't have nothing simmilar with Polish -Lithuanian state halo, so it's same like to talk with stone.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 02:20 PM   #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Stanisław Radziwiłł was a son of Elżbieta Szydłowiecka (Polish noble lady) and Polish-Lithuanian nobleman Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny (son of Polish noble lady Anna Kiszka and Ruthenian-Baltic nobleman Jan Radziwiłł). His father, Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny was founder of Drukarnia Radziwiłłowska (1553), the first printing office that was publishing books solely in Polish.

Some members of the Radziwiłł noble family that lived in Second Polish Republic:
Janusz Radziwiłł
Krzysztof Mikołaj Radziwiłł
Hieronim Mikołaj Radziwiłł
Artur Radziwiłł
Antoni Albrecht Wilhelm Radziwiłł
Edmund Ferdynand Radziwiłł
Karol Mikołaj Radziwiłł
Konstanty Mikołaj Radziwiłł II
Izabella Róża Radziwiłłowa

You forgot to mention that Lew Sapieha/Леў Сапега was Ruthenian nobleman (influenced by Polish and Ruthenian culture). He married Polish noble lady Dorota Firlej and later, Polish-Lithuanian noble lady Elżbieta (Halszka) Radziwiłł.

Some members of the Sapieha noble family that lived in Second Polish Republic:
Adam Stefan Sapieha
Leon Aleksander Sapieha
Stanisław Sapieha
Maria Sapieha
Róża Maria Sapieha

Other tomb monuments from Wilno that I've shown on the previous page included:
Piotr Wiesiołowski - Polish-Lithuanian nobleman
Aleksander Korwin Gosiewski - Polish-Lithuanian nobleman
Teodora Krystyna Countess Tarnowska - Polish noble lady

* Term Polish-Lithuanians usually means mixed families of Poles and Ruthenians (very rarely with a few Baltic relatives from centuries ago), who in the 15-16th century spoke mostly Old Ruthenian, and from the beginning of the 17th century onwards were majorly Polonised. The Third Statute that Depeched mentioned was written in Old Ruthenian language in 1588, and later translated into Polish in 1614.

Main problem with Radvilos/Radziwiłł was that they were very anti-polish family and speaking frankly even anti-ruthenian like Goštautai. Jonušas Radvila/Janusz Radziwiłł is the best known example. In fact, mixed families back had nothing to do with self-identification (see Ancient Rome versus Sarmatism ideology which was created to separate from the Crown families). There are no clear evidence which langauge they have been spoken, probably like it was usual, they were bilingual. But looking deeply, we can see that in XVII we have sort of mix of language used in corespondance. There are some theories, like, let's say, how do you suppose which language Radvilos had been speaking in Dubingiai with local people? I could hardly imagine non-noble man in XV speaking different language in...Middle Lithuania. Just knowing situation in XV-XVI and some traditions or some fragmentics facts...Still this question is open one and left for subsequent discussions.
Ruthenian origin is a bit underlined, because - as i have sad many times earlier - ruthenians were treated differently (it comes from XV century and even earlier - from pre-centralisation times, that is from times when we looted and raided ruthenian land and did whatever we want ), that is why Chodkevičiai (local people/army called him Katkus) or Sapieha identified themselves to lithuanians, not russ people (here some diletantic belarus "alternative history lovers" can cry as always, but facts are facts). Even though if they planned career, they must to change religion.
Thousands of examples can be find particularly knowing conjunctural, cultural, political and even economical situation or tradition of GDL.

Interesting thing - war. Lithuania Propria (present day Lithuania) was the main center here (number of riders "horses" in 1528 - compare per capita.
So Ruthenian origin was the problem and main concern if X noble had intentions to make a political career. But if you want to gain large territory, you can always choose to marry ruthenian women

By the way, Mykolojus Radvila Juodasis or Mikołaj Radziwiłł Czarny and particularly his father Jonas Radvila (his spouse Zaslauskaitė) had no ruthenian blood at all, actually. Zaslauskai, Sakavičiai were old families from Nalšia/Deltuva (smaller subdivision of Lithuanian tribe) and probably they participated in the raid to Masovia (Plock, etc.)...

Sapieha was raised in Eastern Orthodox. I would say he was influenced by Renaissance ideas/culture (compare to Polish Culture in XV/XVI century, in terms of confession freedom).

Talking about Statute. Statutes were mix of different legislation, created in the spirit of Renaissance (here is it's exceptionality) - so called customary law, Magdeburgh law etc. Interesting is that customary law (or fragments) is non-ruthenian/polish/other, but lithuanian - historical links to pre-christian GDL and "rulling will" ("if you want to control - apply your will" what originates from the times when Ruthenian payed tributes/contribution to lithuanian tribes). Secondly, Statute object was Ruthenian lands, this means, non-lithanian lands. Why? Simple. Property ownership. In Lithuania propria ownership lands/property rights were formed quite early - in XIV century, confirmed after the baptism in XV. There were no use to apply it on us, because majority of lithuanians were free folks and ownership rights (nobleman) were formed before XVI century....Differently that in Ruthenian lands.

Plus, there are a slightly big difference between official/chancellor language. In Lithuania (Lithuania propria) every official person had to speak lithuanian language. For instance, during court procedure, if X person was a Ruthenian -origin and he carried out some official actions not knowing local language, Court (NB: even noble court) had to dismiss it ie. evidence, on the language background. Very simple story which iliustrate complicated society. Thrid, language as such. Statutes had many lithuanian origin words, describing officiers positions, which were - as a loan - just written in ruthenian, like : велдомы, veldamas, t. y. 'valstietis su šeima ir turtu didžiojo kunigaikščio padovanotas bajorui ar kokiam pareigūnui', текунъ, 'kaimo pareigūnas, skelbiąs valdovo ar pono valią' (iš tekūnas: tekėti 'bėgti'), жибентаи 'toks rūmų pareigūnas, žibintų prižiūrėtojas, kūrikas' (iš žibintojas: žibinti), рыкунья 'dvaro gyvulius ar gyvulininkystės produktus tvarkanti moteris, rykūnia' (plg. rykauti 'tvarkyti, šeimininkauti, rikiuoti'), дякло 'prievolė grūdais, pyliava, duoklė' (iš dėklas: dėti, labai populiarus juridinis terminas), коиминецъ 'valstietis ar buvęs karo belaisvis, gyvenąs ne bajoro dvare, bet jo valdose tam tikromis sąlygomis, turįs savo sodybą' (plg. kaimynas), ir kt."
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Old November 12th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #587
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Old-Ruthenian (as you call) language was office language, which was not used in public life.
I'm curious, would you call it pre-Belorussian or proto-Belorussian language?

IIRC learning Belorussian is quite popular among historians in Poland who tend to do research of 16-17th century, because of existing records of Great Lithuanian Archive (available in Petersburg). And - from what I heard from historians of this period - the documents from GDL were written in language which was the closest to present Belorussian.

Sorry, for the OT, normally I'd use PM, but the answer might be interesting for all, so I make it public
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #588
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I'm curious, would you call it pre-Belorussian or proto-Belorussian language?

IIRC learning Belorussian is quite popular among historians in Poland who tend to do research of 16-17th century, because of existing records of Great Lithuanian Archive (available in Petersburg). And - from what I heard from historians of this period - the documents from GDL were written in language which was the closest to present Belorussian.

Sorry, for the OT, normally I'd use PM, but the answer might be interesting for all, so I make it public
According to Z.Zinkevičius, who is a prominent scholar, it is neither pre-Belorussian, nor proto-Belorussian in terms of pure language. Language was sort of mix of dialects back then. For instance, in XV cen. second half, it had a strong influence of Lutsk dialect (Wołyń land dialect), according to norwegian baltist and slavist -Ch. Stang; historically, Vytautas the Great second wife came from those lands...
Second thing, it had not so called akavimo (аканье) and/or dzūkavimo (дзеканье, цеканье) - both of mentioned feature were (are?) distinctive describing (old) Belorussian language. Third, language (probably we need take it in the marks) rooted from "Slavic-Church", what means, that first officers were monks - actually, every pagan duke, who had more interest in ruthenian lands, had some monks who knew how to write (even some Rome-chirstians). Again, understandable why even though monks were amongst most educated persons, including Western Europe..
However, another problem is the"official status". Here we face with a problem that mainly all officers names/positions come from the baltic language, like kaimynas - коиминецъ. There are about 298 words (information from an old article, 1995) or so called "lituanisms"; there is no big surprise with that and can be explained by early event (XII-XIV) and because of that some terms, definitions, officers name (judicial, political, economical ters) etc. had to get some time to evolve/develop until they become main ("official") terms, describing, i.e noble ownership - it is very important matter when we are talking about "official language:. For instance, текунъ (tekūnas - tekėti/bėgti -> to run; a person who proclaims Dukes/noble man's will/order by running from point A to point B). Clearly it comes from lithuanian language (southern part dialect).якло 'prievolė grūdais, pyliava, duoklė' (iš dėklas: dėti, -> obligation to pay by grains; very popular judicial term).
Plus, due to fact that there was no-common language, everyone who wrote smth, left many dialectic features, for instance, if a person was of lithuanian origin, probably he will leave more baltisms than someone from Lutsk et cetera.
In this case we can not put "equality sign" between oral and writing language (like latin and - afaik - german language in Poland (XIII-XV cent.), correct me if i am wrong and mislead some facts).

Belorussians, Ukraine, Russian languages are not so different therefore knowing one or another - you wont any difficulty to understand even old-slavic language.

If we look more deeply, we will see that many things (or "practices" (in XV-XVII)) are more complicated than we can even imagine...

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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:27 PM   #589
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I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Could you please tell me in what language the first pages of Lithuanian Statutes are written (1529)? Is it Polish (because I can fully understand that text) or Old Ruthenian translated into Latin alphabet?

The First Lithuanian Statutes (1529)


Source: http://www.polona.pl/item/1196039/2/

Would person speaking Polish understand person speaking Old Ruthenian in the 16th century?
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:44 PM   #590
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Quote:
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I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Could you please tell me in what language the first pages of Lithuanian Statutes are written (1529?)? Is it Polish (because I can fully understand that text) or Old Ruthenian translated into Latin alphabet?

The First Lithuanian Statutes (1529?)


Source: http://www.polona.pl/item/1196039/2/
Dont know. Just do not understand certain language.
It might be old-slavic or maybe it's translations? Is it a scan-copy of original version?
RS_UK-PL, is it very big difference between east slavic (old slavic) and Polish language?

--

Mostly majority of Ruthenian-origin noble were interested in creating The First Statute. They had a hope that their rights would be officially recognised as equal to other nobles. Albrechtas Goštautas, known for his nationalistic attitude, blocked the first edition, but later supported it.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 12:36 AM   #591
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It looks Polish to me.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #592
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It looks Polish to me.
Yes, now I'm sure it's Polish, because I found similar texts from the same period (1500-1540).

However, Old Ruthenian language was very close to Polish at the time...Please see the book title (published in Nieśwież in 1562) transliteration from Cyrylic to Latin alphabet below:
"Katichizis, to jest nauka starodawnaja chrystianskaja od swiatogo Pisma dlia prostych ludiej jazyka ruskago w pytaniach i odkazach sobrana"

No surprise that Poles and Ruthenians were getting along so well
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Old November 13th, 2013, 03:18 AM   #593
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Sport in Second Polish Republic (continuation)

Basketball match: Poland vs III Reich, 1939

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Field hockey match: Poznań, 1938

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Rugby match

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Hockey match: Poland vs France, 1937

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Figure skating: Katowice 1938

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Ski jumping: Zakopane, 1932

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Cross-country skiing: Zakopane, 1933

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Volleyball: Kraków, 1929

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/

Bonus

"Radio Days" Karczew, 1932

http://www.rp.pl/
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Old November 13th, 2013, 10:32 AM   #594
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OT:


The ordered distance between Polish and the closest Slavonic languages on the basis of the nine phonetic features is as follows:
Polish – Czech (9.32)
Polish – Slovak (11.99)
Polish – Sorbian/Lusatian (15.60)
Polish – Belarusian (17.11)
Polish – Ukrainian (23.72)

Chi-square static results:
Polish - Czech (1.44)
Polish - Slovak (1.72)
Polish - Sorbian/Lusatian (2.41)
Polish - Belarusian (2.65)
Polish - Ukrainian (3.68)
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Old November 13th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #595
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The ordered distance between Polish and the closest Slavonic languages on the basis of the nine phonetic features is as follows:
Polish – Czech (9.32)
Polish – Slovak (11.99)
Polish – Sorbian/Lusatian (15.60)
Polish – Belarusian (17.11)
Polish – Ukrainian (23.72)

Chi-square static results:
Polish - Czech (1.44)
Polish - Slovak (1.72)
Polish - Sorbian/Lusatian (2.41)
Polish - Belarusian (2.65)
Polish - Ukrainian (3.68)
This is really surprising to me. Pole can understand Slovak definitely easier than Czech (probably because large difference in vocabulary) - while results of the research show that Czech is closer.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 09:19 PM   #596
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Stanisławów (the city was founded by Polish nobleman Andrzej Potocki in 1662 as a private fortress), now Ukraine


Roman Catholic Church (members of the Potocki family were buried here)






Old Square with modern City Hall (previous one destroyed in WW1)


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Stanislawow



In addition to the posts above and #67, few more photos of Stanisławów (now Ukraine)






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Old November 15th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #597
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I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Could you please tell me in what language the first pages of Lithuanian Statutes are written (1529)? Is it Polish (because I can fully understand that text) or Old Ruthenian translated into Latin alphabet?

The First Lithuanian Statutes (1529)


Source: http://www.polona.pl/item/1196039/2/

Would person speaking Polish understand person speaking Old Ruthenian in the 16th century?
It is Belarusian from XVI century of course, but grammatically is almost the same with modern Belarusian.

Original dokument was written with cyrilic alphabeth, and this is probably later copy written with latin letters.

Anyway it is not Old Ruthenian yet, and not Polish, because it has many stricto Belarusian features.
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Old November 15th, 2013, 06:39 PM   #598
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Yes, now I'm sure it's Polish, because I found similar texts from the same period (1500-1540).

However, Old Ruthenian language was very close to Polish at the time...Please see the book title (published in Nieśwież in 1562) transliteration from Cyrylic to Latin alphabet below:
"Katichizis, to jest nauka starodawnaja chrystianskaja od swiatogo Pisma dlia prostych ludiej jazyka ruskago w pytaniach i odkazach sobrana"

No surprise that Poles and Ruthenians were getting along so well
It will be much correct name it Old Belarusian, because Old Ruthenian was commonly used much earlier and it was different from the sample. The language from sample is most closer to modern Belarusian.

Another good sample "A leter from Jack the host from near Wilna to peasants of Polish land"



What do you think of that, is it Polish?
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Old November 15th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #599
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And what is your opinion on the text below written by Halszka from Ostrog in 1576...

"Ja Łukaszowaja z Gorki wojewodinaja poznanskaja Halżbieta Kniażna Ostroskaja i ne za żadnom prymuszeniem ani namowami, jedno rozmyśliwszy sia stateczne i dowodne, soznawaju kożdomu, komu toho potreba wedati abo cztuczi słuszaty: Zostawszy mnie pierwie po nieboszczyku otcu mojemu Knieżati Konstantinowiczu Ostrogskomu starosti bracławskomu i winnickomu, potom i po nieboszczyku mużu mojemu panu Łukaszu z Gorki wojewodi poznanskomu, w siroctwie i wdowstwie mojem, i buduczy wielce nieznosnemi krywdami, trudnostiami i dolegliwostiami utisnena, a ja opuszczonaja oto wsich krewnich, bliźnich i powinnyoh moich, kotoryi ne tolko aby mnie w tych wsich niefortunnych pripadkach moich ratunek albo pomożenie czynity mieli, tak jakoby na krewnoju i miłoju powinuoju wedUa Pana Boba słusznie prystojało i należało; ale żadnyj z nich nazwaty nikoli nie chotdeł, a jakoby wzgardiewszy mnoju, sirotstwom, niedostatkom i wdowstwom moim a sniscyj wyrekajuczy sia s krewnosti i powinnosti, wsie menie zaniechali i opustili , prawie i zapomnieli; tolko doznali i na siej czas ustawicznie doznawajem weUkoj nieżności i newymownoj łaski, dobrotliwosti, ratunku i pripomożenia Jego Miłosti jaśnie wielmoźnaho pana Konstantina Konstantinowicza Kniażati Ostrogskoho wojewody kiewskoho, marszałka Zemli Wołyńskoj, starosty wołodymirskoho, kotoroje mnie Jeho Miłost jeszcze za żywota nieboszczyka małżonka mojeho tajże i po smierti czyniły i okazowały(...)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gość View Post
It is Belarusian from XVI century of course
I can easily understand over 90% of that text. How is it possible? Was Old Belarusian (or Polish) just a local dialect of the same language?! I'm absolutely shocked.
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Last edited by RS_UK-PL; November 15th, 2013 at 08:27 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I can easily understand over 90% of that text. How is it possible? Was Old Belarusian (or Polish) just a local dialect of the same language?! I'm absolutely shocked.
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