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Old December 5th, 2013, 11:09 AM   #621
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In addition to the post #227 and #619...visit of President of Poland Ignacy Mościcki to Bielsko (1927)


Aleksandra Piłsudska and Ignacy Mościcki in Bezdany, now Lithuania


Ignacy Mościcki in Stołpce (near the Polish-Soviet border), now Belarus
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Old December 5th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #622
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I believe that one of the most positive features of the pre-1945 cities, not only in Poland, was the lack of the urban-sprawl that became so common in the eastern block after the war. The new communist residential districts, with their aesthetically dubious commieblocks, and new industrial facilities were usually built in the unurbanised areas outside the existing urban fabric, creating a sort of vast new "rings" of urbanisation and permanently cutting off the populations of most of the cities from easy access to the surrounding natural environment and the countryside. In the 1930s, a typical summer weekend in Warsaw would include a short boat trip to the beautiful beaches and forests just north of the city. Thousands of people would have family picnics along the green banks of the Vistula river. Today, we have to rely on municipal parks and city forests, but that, I think, is not exactly the same.
Interesting, what you're saying about green areas. Especially since 1945 thousands of hectares of land (formerly agricultural) were transformed into forests. In whole Poland, especially in Mazovia, around Warsaw. And most of leisure areas from 1930s still exist.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #623
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Mruczek: It is certainly true that the percentage of land covered by forests in Poland increased after 1945 by more than a quarter. But most of these were forests grown for "industrial" purposes, in the areas usually quite remote from urban centres. I also agree that most of the leisure areas inside the boundaries of Warsaw from 1930s (parks, municipal forests, riverbanks) still exist.

What I meant, hovewer, were not the typical leisure areas inside the city, but rather the accessability of unurbanised environment arround the city for the majority of its inhabitants. To give an example: compare Bielany before 1945 and today. Or Ursynów. These were more or less rural areas before the war, quite suitable for, let's say, a bike trip or a day-out-of-town with your family. And you could get there by tram (Bielany) or bus (Ursynów) in a relatively short period of time.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #624
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What I meant, hovewer, were not the typical leisure areas inside the city, but rather the accessability of unurbanised environment arround the city for the majority of its inhabitants. To give an example: compare Bielany before 1945 and today. Or Ursynów. These were more or less rural areas before the war, quite suitable for, let's say, a bike trip or a day-out-of-town with your family. And you could get there by tram (Bielany) or bus (Ursynów) in a relatively short period of time.
I can agree that urban sprawl made it hard to find 'uncivilised' place around Warsaw, but I don't agree that forest or rural areas are harder to access. Before the war, most of people couldn't afford regular tram tickets, bicycle was already a luxurious good. Getting out of cramped city was definitely harder than today. On the other hand, there wasn't the Internet at that time, so people used to spend time outside
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Old December 5th, 2013, 06:48 PM   #625
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In the end, that will probably be quite correct . I didn't look at the economic side of it. Still, I wouldn't mind to see a return to a more "compact" vision of city planning.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 12:38 PM   #626
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Regions in Poland inhabited by significant number of Belarusian speakers (1931)


Dark green - over 50%
Green - 40-50%

President of Poland Ignacy Mościcki to lay Belarusian school foundation (Nowogródek, 1929)


The opening ceremony of Belarusian exhibition in Mir (1929)


Ignacy Mościcki meets Belarusian peasant in Szreniewicze
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Old December 6th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Regions in Poland inhabited by significant number of Belarusian speakers (1931)


Dark green - over 50%
Green - 40-50%
Where did you get this ridiculous map? Minority below 40% is not a significant minority?

That's the real distribution of Belarussians in Poland, according to 1931 census:


That's the distribution, if Poleszczucy are counted as Belarussians:
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Old December 6th, 2013, 02:08 PM   #628
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I wouldn't call 0.1-5%, 5-10% or even between 10 up to 20% of population significant number in such mixed environment like Kresy. The map has been updated.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #629
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I wouldn't call 0.1-5%, 5-10% or even between 10 up to 20% of population significant number in such mixed environment like Kresy. The map has been updated.
Taking into account your "Poland Strong" attitude, I am amazed that you were kind enough to update at least counties with minorities over 20%
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Old December 6th, 2013, 02:57 PM   #630
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Taking into account your "Poland Strong" attitude, I am amazed that you were kind enough to update at least counties with minorities over 20%
Well, to be honest I don't like your attitude "Poland Weak".

The bilingual status of gminas (communes) in Poland is regulated by the Act of 6 January 2005 on National and Ethnic Minorities and on the Regional Languages, which permits certain gminas with significant linguistic minorities (over 20%) to introduce a second, auxiliary language to be used in official contexts alongside Polish.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #631
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Quote:
The bilingual status of gminas (communes) in Poland is regulated by the Act of 6 January 2005 on National and Ethnic Minorities and on the Regional Languages, which permits certain gminas with significant linguistic minorities (over 20%) to introduce a second, auxiliary language to be used in official contexts alongside Polish.
But please note that the introduction of a second language in any given municipality carries important administrative consequences, a need to hire a specified precentage of bilingual staff in public offices being just one of them. For such purely administrative purposes a threshold of 20% is very reasonable. But this is no indication that minorities below 20% are insignificant.

I believe that what Mruczek is hinting at is that a thread such as this, which attempts to present an overall image of a country to a wider audience, should be slightly more objective. The truth is that - whether we like it or not - the majority of Eastern Poland before 1945 was hardly Polish at all. Outside the big cities like Grodno, Polish population was a minority - very often a tiny minority.

Poland in the interbellum was a beautiful country, that's for sure. But it was also an intolerant and radical country, largely disliked by its neighbours, with legally approved discrimination and a terrifying level of antisemitism. To forget about that would be a grave injustice.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 08:54 PM   #632
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Well, to be honest I don't like your attitude "Poland Weak".

The bilingual status of gminas (communes) in Poland is regulated by the Act of 6 January 2005 on National and Ethnic Minorities and on the Regional Languages, which permits certain gminas with significant linguistic minorities (over 20%) to introduce a second, auxiliary language to be used in official contexts alongside Polish.
I don't know what does presenting full and unedited results of 1931 official census done by Polish Statistical Office with "attitude Poland Weak". Certainly it is more honest to present map with full scale than to manipulate it in primitive way you're doing.

And please, don't compare today's Polish Republic, which is tolerant and supportive towards ethnic minorities with the Second Republic, which administration was - in some regions - forcing policies similar to infamous Hakata.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 11:04 PM   #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaner View Post
Poland in the interbellum was a beautiful country, that's for sure. But it was also an intolerant and radical country, largely disliked by its neighbours, with legally approved discrimination and a terrifying level of antisemitism. To forget about that would be a grave injustice.
In comparison with other Central/Eastern European countries it was probably one of the most peaceful places to live at the time (before WW2)...

Soviet Union:
Vinnytsia massacre
Polish Operation of the NKVD
Holodomor
Great Purge
Gulag

Germany:
Dachau
Sachsenhausen
Night of the Long Knives
Kristallnacht
Buchenwald
Kemna
Aryan certificate
Breitenau

And the list goes on.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 08:44 AM   #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
In comparison with other Central/Eastern European countries it was probably one of the most peaceful places to live at the time (before WW2)...

Soviet Union:
Vinnytsia massacre
Polish Operation of the NKVD
Holodomor
Great Purge
Gulag

Germany:
Dachau
Sachsenhausen
Night of the Long Knives
Kristallnacht
Buchenwald
Kemna
Aryan certificate
Breitenau

And the list goes on.
That's also very symptomatic for "Poland Stronk" admirers, that they are comparing Sacred Poland with two most evil tyrannies that ever existed in Europe and treating it as a proof of excellence of the Second Republic. You do know other countries, apart from Germany and Russia, don't you?

Interestingly, this attitude often correlates with ultra-criticism of today's Poland (and, worse, treating Second Republic as better than the Third). Criticism, which often goes beyond the sanity
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Old December 7th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #635
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That's also very symptomatic for "Poland Stronk" admirers, that they are comparing Sacred Poland with two most evil tyrannies that ever existed in Europe and treating it as a proof of excellence of the Second Republic.
Mr "Poland Weak" is moaning again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaner View Post
The truth is that - whether we like it or not - the majority of Eastern Poland before 1945 was hardly Polish at all. Outside the big cities like Grodno, Polish population was a minority - very often a tiny minority.
Regions inhabited by Polish-speaking majority or significant Polish-speaking minority


Map of the Second Polish Republic


According to "Mały Rocznik Statystyczny Polski" (1939), Eastern Poland was inhabited by 5,274,000 Poles.

Poles in Soviet Union in 1959:
Ukraine - 363,297
Lithuania - 230,107
Belarus - 538,881
Kazakhstan - 53,102
Russia - at least 100,000

Poles who were expelled from Soviet Union to Poland (1944-1946 and 1955-1959) - ~2,208,000

Total: 3,493,387

While other Poles have been murdered during Soviet occupation, joined Red Army, etc.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 11:32 AM   #636
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According to the census of 1939, Eastern Poland (Kresy) was inhabited by 5,274,000 Poles.
It would be nice to be informed, how many Polish citizens lived altogether in Kresy. But it seems that this number is classified, because simple admitting that there were Polish citizens of other nationality than Polish is "Poland Weak attitude"

Btw, in 1939 there was no census.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
in 1939 there was no census
The official 1931 census (Lwow, Tarnopol, Stanislawow, Volhynian, Polesie, Bialystok, Nowogrodek and Wilno voivodeships):
5,934,911 Poles
4,301,214 Ukrainians, Rusyns
1,120,547 Jews
986,770 Belarusians, Tutejszy
707,088 Poleszuks
352,013 Other

The following statistics were taken from "Mały Rocznik Statystyczny Polski" (1939):
5,274,000 Poles
4,529,000 Ukrainians, Rusyns, Poleszuks, etc.
1,945,000 Belarusians, Tutejszy
1,109,000 Jews

---------------------------

Btw, the linguistic map of Czechoslovakia (1930), Poland's neighbour...
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Old December 7th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #638
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Well, contrary to Poland and nearly every other state in central and eastern europe, czechoslovakia was nevertheless a democracy until 1938.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #639
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Well, contrary to Poland and nearly every other state in central and eastern europe, czechoslovakia was nevertheless a democracy until 1938.
Czechoslovakia made up for lost time for dictatorship in 1938-39 though
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Old December 10th, 2013, 11:27 AM   #640
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Second democratic parliamentary elections were held in Poland on 5 November 1922, with Senate elections held a week later on 12 November. The elections were governed by the March Constitution of Poland, and saw the Christian Union of National Unity coalition emerge as the largest bloc in the Sejm with 163 of the 444 seats.

Parties with most votes by electoral district


Christian Union of National Unity (Polish: Chrześcijański Związek Jedności Narodowej; leader - Stanisław Głąbiński)


Polish People's Party "Piast" (party leader - Wincenty Witos; election poster)


Polish Socialist Party (party leader - Ignacy Daszyński)


Electoral districts where representatives of ethnic minorities won


Pink - Blok Mniejszości Narodowych (BMN; English: Bloc of National Minorities; Belarusian: Блёк нацыянальных меньшасьцяў, Bliok nacyjanałnych mieńšaściaŭ; Ukrainian: Блок національних меншин, Blok Natsional'nykh Menshyn; German: Block der Nationalen Minderheiten; Yiddish: בלאָק פון נאַשאַנאַל מינאָריטיעס, Blok fon Nashonal Minorities), was a political party in the Second Polish Republic, representing a coalition of various ethnic minorities in Poland, primarily Ukrainians, Belarusians, Jews and Germans. Party leader - Yitzhak Gruenbaum

Orange - Ukrainian Agrarian party (Ukrainska khliborobska partiia, or UAP). A numerically small liberal-democratic party representing the national and class interests of the Ukrainian peasantry

Yellow - Committee of United National Jewish Parties
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