Suburbia: Your Thoughts and Ideas

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by CNB30

Nope, light rail. actually this is already what is happening with the new urban and urban infill movement anyway. Old developments, strip malls, and so fourth are being torn down and replaced with more architecturally pleasing and urban structures.

I really like the light rail idea. Can that be complemented with both buses and shuttle vans too? I like multiple options for transit myself.

[CNB30]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

I really like the light rail idea. Can that be complemented with both buses and shuttle vans too? I like multiple options for transit myself.

sure, but the whole point is more rail and non gasoline ways to travel.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by CNB30

sure, but the whole point is more rail and non gasoline ways to travel.

Well, buses that are coming out on the market right now come with both conventional diesel and hybrid models... with my favorite being the hydrogen-powered bus.

[Xpressway]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

I think otherwise: it isolates people, it lengthens commutes, and it sometimes psychologically drains a person's creativity.

Commute in crowded cities can take very long and be extremely unconfortable.

About the creativity, many high-tech companies are located in sprawling campuses in suburbs and these places are clusters of creativity.

About the isolation of people, why would a person in the suburbs become isolated? They can drive to see friends, they attend parties, go to parent meetings, work place meetings, play in parks...

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Xpressway

Commute in crowded cities can take very long and be extremely unconfortable.

About the creativity, many high-tech companies are located in sprawling campuses in suburbs and these places are clusters of creativity.

About the isolation of people, why would a person in the suburbs become isolated? They can drive to see friends, they attend parties, go to parent meetings, work place meetings, play in parks...

I think isolated would mean for someone who depends on transit to get to and from work, school, and the like. As for creativity, those sprawling campuses are mainly for those who would've gone to college or university, not for those who have only gone as far as high school. And commuting in crowded cities may indeed be uncomfortable sometimes; that's why multiple options are available.

[poshbakerloo]

Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss

I don't see a problem with raising a child in an apartment, be it on the 17th floor or not. I even think it's better in some ways than suburbia. First of all, a suburban home requires a lot more maintenance (and therefore time and money) than an apartment. Some people have different priorities and don't want to spend a small fortune trying to heat the house (or cool it), repair it or spend their weekend mowing the lawn. Secondly, at least in Estonia, suburban neighbourhoods have way less to offer to children in regards to the choice of schools, sporting activities etc and because the public transport is also very infrequent and slow, one of the parents ends up being a taxi driver for the children which not only takes up time and money but also takes away a lot in regards to the children learning to be independent. In the US, you have lots of children who are driven to the school, football practice, friends' houses or wherever else it might be by their parents until they're 16. I went to school on my own since I was 8 years old.

That seems more of an issue to do with income. Most families with 2 working parents who are in there 40s can easily afford a 3-4 bedroom semi/detached home. The ones that can't and are forced to live in a much cheaper apartment mostly aspire to live in the suburbs. (I'm speaking as an English person, as I don't know what the case is in every other country).

UK suburbs are interesting, as they have the sprawling design and layout, but without the motorways, and instead mostly have a high quality and dense railway network. I can get from my large detached home on my tree lines road, into Manchester city centre in 25mins on the train, only costing £4.80 return.

I work in Manchester but live way out in the suburban area in Cheshire. A lot of people who work where I work arn't very rich and live in a small terrace house or apartment, but they all talk about how 'lucky' I am to live in a large detached house, and wish they could do the same.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone talk about how they would much rather live in a small inner city apartment, other than maybe a few younger people who want it, just for the night life etc.

[LtBk]

Originally Posted by Xpressway

Commute in crowded cities can take very long and be extremely unconfortable.

About the creativity, many high-tech companies are located in sprawling campuses in suburbs and these places are clusters of creativity.

About the isolation of people, why would a person in the suburbs become isolated? They can drive to see friends, they attend parties, go to parent meetings, work place meetings, play in parks...

The funny thing is that there is trend for tech companies to have offices in central cities like San Francisco. Tech companies were first located in suburbs because more college educated people lived in burbs than in central cities for decades, at least in the US.

[CNB30]

Originally Posted by LtBk

The funny thing is that there is trend for tech companies to have offices in central cities like San Francisco. Tech companies were first located in suburbs because more college educated people lived in burbs than in central cities for decades, at least in the US.

Thankfully those days of bad urban planning and social layouts have passed and many wealthy working professionals live and work downtown.

[CNB30]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

Well, buses that are coming out on the market right now come with both conventional diesel and hybrid models... with my favorite being the hydrogen-powered bus.

One of the points is for transportation to be anti automobile and anti freeway.

[The Cake On BBQ]

Originally Posted by Xpressway

Commute in crowded cities can take very long and be extremely unconfortable.

About the creativity, many high-tech companies are located in sprawling campuses in suburbs and these places are clusters of creativity.

About the isolation of people, why would a person in the suburbs become isolated? They can drive to see friends, they attend parties, go to parent meetings, work place meetings, play in parks...

I think travelling on public transit triggers creativity somehow. You get to observe people's behaviors, how they are dressed, trying to get what they are thinking, what kind of a day they are having, what they are listening on earphones etc.

Okay, that sounded kinda spooky, but it's so much fun actually!

[The Cake On BBQ]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

That seems more of an issue to do with income. Most families with 2 working parents who are in there 40s can easily afford a 3-4 bedroom semi/detached home. The ones that can't and are forced to live in a much cheaper apartment mostly aspire to live in the suburbs. (I'm speaking as an English person, as I don't know what the case is in every other country).

UK suburbs are interesting, as they have the sprawling design and layout, but without the motorways, and instead mostly have a high quality and dense railway network. I can get from my large detached home on my tree lines road, into Manchester city centre in 25mins on the train, only costing £4.80 return.

I work in Manchester but live way out in the suburban area in Cheshire. A lot of people who work where I work arn't very rich and live in a small terrace house or apartment, but they all talk about how 'lucky' I am to live in a large detached house, and wish they could do the same.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone talk about how they would much rather live in a small inner city apartment, other than maybe a few younger people who want it, just for the night life etc.

Not all apartments are small, you know. There are some pretty big apartments, and reason they are so unaffordable is because people prefer to live in detached houses in suburbia. More people move to the cities the bigger and more affordable they will become.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by LtBk

The funny thing is that there is trend for tech companies to have offices in central cities like San Francisco. Tech companies were first located in suburbs because more college educated people lived in burbs than in central cities for decades, at least in the US.

Excellent point. Thus it was good practice to have tech offices in the big city too instead of concentrating them in the suburbs so that more deserving people, who may not drive or commute all the way to the sprawling suburban complexes, can accomplish their jobs in the City -- and still get full or decent pay. I believe that the bad planning in suburbia, in terms of tech sites, are dwindling down that companies realize the value of office real estate in the City where many tech companies, particularly start-up ones, are based, and I think through integration and cooperation, such companies as Twitter, Wikipedia, and Yelp can develop their networks even further and reach out to even more small companies. (As an aside, all three of those companies are based in San Francisco)

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by The Cake On BBQ

Not all apartments are small, you know. There are some pretty big apartments, and reason they are so unaffordable is because people prefer to live in detached houses in suburbia. More people move to the cities the bigger and more affordable they will become.

Hm, I'd say the converse is true here. Apartments make up the majority of housing here and it is all about location as far as pricing goes. There are very large, affordable apartments out in the suburbs which are, very nice in fact, but as you get closer to the city the prices increase dramatically.

Some examples:

Tullinge, 21km away from Centralstation. 3 bedroom apartment 87sqm 1.395 million SEK.

Fruängen, 11,4km away from Centralstation. 3 bedroom apartment 88sqm 1.95 million SEK.

Gröndal, 6.8km away from Centralstation. 3 bedroom apartment 93sqm 3.05 million SEK - this one is not located as close to rail transport as the others.

Kungsholmen, 2.7km away from Centralstation. 3 bedroom apartment 91sqm 4.9 million SEK.

That was the best property matching I could do on a short look through properties for sale at the moment. There are, of course, larger properties, but 3 bedrooms with bathroom, kitchen, separate living area and a dining area were the requirements for all of these properties. So in other words, standard family apartments.

[Xpressway]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

I think isolated would mean for someone who depends on transit to get to and from work, school, and the like.

Originally Posted by The Cake On BBQ

I think travelling on public transit triggers creativity somehow. You get to observe people's behaviors, how they are dressed, trying to get what they are thinking, what kind of a day they are having, what they are listening on earphones etc.

Okay, that sounded kinda spooky, but it's so much fun actually!

Most people in the public transport just mind their own business just like car drivers.

As for creativity, those sprawling campuses are mainly for those who would've gone to college or university, not for those who have only gone as far as high school.

This is more dependant on the individual rather than the type of city/town. There's creativity in rural areas, in cities, in suburbs, everywhere.

And commuting in crowded cities may indeed be uncomfortable sometimes; that's why multiple options are available.

Some cities grow so large and congested that commuting can take hours. My city's subway and bus lines run extremely saturated at rush hour, the last thing you mind is socializing in the public transport or thinking how many tons of CO2 you spared.

Originally Posted by LtBk

The funny thing is that there is trend for tech companies to have offices in central cities like San Francisco. Tech companies were first located in suburbs because more college educated people lived in burbs than in central cities for decades, at least in the US.

I wouldn't call the Silicon Valley "urban"... It feels more like a huge suburb with sprawling company campuses with wide avenues and not much (if any) people walking in the street.

[LtBk]

I never said Silicon Valley was "urban".

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Xpressway

Most people in the public transport just mind their own business just like car drivers.

This is more dependant on the individual rather than the type of city/town. There's creativity in rural areas, in cities, in suburbs, everywhere.

Some cities grow so large and congested that commuting can take hours. My city's subway and bus lines run extremely saturated at rush hour, the last thing you mind is socializing in the public transport or thinking how many tons of CO2 you spared.

I wouldn't call the Silicon Valley "urban"... It feels more like a huge suburb with sprawling company campuses with wide avenues and not much (if any) people walking in the street.

On driving versus transit: True, but you get to talk to people you might know on board the bus or train to keep you company.

On creativity: sure, that's a good proposition. Yet again, it takes time for a person to be creative on the fly, especially when you need to focus on something important.

On transit congestion: which city do you live in, and how crowded are your bus and metro lines? And yes, congestion in public transit can be extreme that when a vehicle breaks down, other commuters and drivers might suffer from overloaded buses and trains, especially during the rush hour.

[Slartibartfas]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

When it comes to town planning you can't just look at what is efficient but what people like. Say what you want about suburbs, but they are always the location of choice by families. Who wants to raise a family in a small apartment on the 17th floor?

You witnessed the not so recent invention of lifts, did you? In any case, your view looks a bit outdated. It was maybe true 10-20 years ago. When I look at those brand new neighbourhoods in Vienna which are built in urban densities with local infrastructure, good PT access, good walkability and in central locations I see lots of young families, young middle class families. Maybe even those who grew up themselves in suburbs and simply don't want to go back there and don't want to have their child there either. I don't think the nightlife is their prime motivation.

[fieldsofdreams]

In my opinion, Silicon Valley is a "region" where suburban and urban communities collide with large tech campuses in Santa Clara County. In particular, I would say that a lot of the communities in this region have mixed-use commercial and residential downtown areas, with San Jose being a still-evolving city of its own.

[Suburbanist]

What top priority would you like to implement in suburbia to make it more livable?

I dispute the general concept of "livability" as currently understood by the mainstream "planning community". Majority of people don't care have a mostly functional relationship with the urban (or suburban for that matter) resources they use such as infrastructure, shopping etc. The average planner overemphasizes things like "placemaking" or "fostering a sense of community", things that are irrelevant in regard of urban forms.

More low-income or subsidized housing to house the poor
I think it is better, via market forces, to have poverty (say, the lower-15% income percentile) concentrated in central areas so that they can have more specific government services they need delivered more easily

Better in-city transportation (transit, carpooling, car-sharing, biking)
I think automated vehicles will revolutionize urban transportation, to the point where the whole fleet is automated (e.g., drives by computer, not by driver mechanical input) and thus new very light personal transit vehicles can operate (since they won't crash, or if they crash they will do so several orders of magnitude less often than normal cars of today).

Creating meaningful, fun-filled activities and events in your neighborhood
This is a serious misconception. Many people have "meaningful, fun-filled" activities in their lives, even if they live on a very quiet neighborhood. It can be for church involvement to a sports' club or being a hardcore fan of some musical group.

There is no need to tie entertainment with the immediate vicinity of where you live, nor to assume your neighbors must be part of your light-hearted side of your life.

Lower taxes (and benefits) for new businesses and industries
At least in US, the majority of employment today is already NOT on inner-city areas.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

You witnessed the not so recent invention of lifts, did you? In any case, your view looks a bit outdated. It was maybe true 10-20 years ago. When I look at those brand new neighbourhoods in Vienna which are built in urban densities with local infrastructure, good PT access, good walkability and in central locations I see lots of young families, young middle class families. Maybe even those who grew up themselves in suburbs and simply don't want to go back there and don't want to have their child there either. I don't think the nightlife is their prime motivation.

Always the problem with generalizations... there had been and there is a mixed market whose share of preferences vary according to country-specific conditions etc. Trends shift, but that doesn't mean "everybody was moving to suburbs" 20 years ago, but also doesn't imply "suburbs are dying " either.

We can't generalize... I for myself would probably postpone the idea of having a child if the only option I had was to raise a kid in a small apartment in a downtown or CBD, since I want to both provide space for the kid (a decent-sized house with private yard) but also live in place reasonably isolated so I can keep an eye later on until he/she is independent. So ideally I'd like to have a lot of money to live on a gated community, or in a ranch-style subdivision like 50-70km from a metro area. But I can't generalize that.