Suburbia: Your Thoughts and Ideas

[Slartibartfas]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Always the problem with generalizations... there had been and there is a mixed market whose share of preferences vary according to country-specific conditions etc. Trends shift, but that doesn't mean "everybody was moving to suburbs" 20 years ago, but also doesn't imply "suburbs are dying " either.

Strawman

Of course, its not black and white. But the old argument that once you create a family most feel compelled to flee the city is terribly outdated. (And exactly that claim was used above, which caused my response)

The point is that well done modern city neighbourhoods demonstrate that you don't need suburbia at all for raising your kids in a good way. And trends confirm that. I don't have to generalize that as this is a pretty broad (ie general) trend in all around the Western world at least.

Of course, you, as someone from the very suburban point of view, would not want that. No problem there. I was not talking about everyone. If you want to deliberately keep your kids isolated, play part time taxi driver for those in your family who can't drive a car yet and enjoy long rides in monofunctional neighbourhoods, suburbs are the place to be for sure.

[poshbakerloo]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

If you want to deliberately keep your kids isolated, play part time taxi driver for those in your family who can't drive a car yet and enjoy long rides in monofunctional neighbourhoods, suburbs are the place to be for sure.

I don't really understand the idea of being isolated, because you live in the suburbs. They always say London can be one of the most lonely places in the world. Raising a family in an apartment just means that you can't see you children out playing, and you have take all your shopping up in a lift.

[LtBk]

Ever heard of public parks?

[alexandru.mircea]

And when you live in a fairly lively city, you have groceries, bakeries and everything else you need in close distance. You then don't need to make weekly shopping trips for provisions and struggle to get them home, instead you buy what you need in small quantities (hence fresh aliments, hence healthier diet) whenever you need, on your way from the metro/bus station to home.

Edit: of course, living in a suburb doesn't literally mean isolation. It means that you have to travel more to get in contact with certain people. But practically this does eventually lead to isolation, in many cases. I live in Paris and I see my friend who lives in La Defense (less than an hour away) once a year, unfortunately.

[Slartibartfas]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

I don't really understand the idea of being isolated, because you live in the suburbs. They always say London can be one of the most lonely places in the world. Raising a family in an apartment just means that you can't see you children out playing, and you have take all your shopping up in a lift.

In older neighbourhoods it can be necessary that you go to a park/playground with your kids. In newer neighbourhoods however it is often perfectly possible to let them play in the courtyard at the playground, just next to your window and families from the block also can meet there and interact. Instead of a spread out suburban neighbourhood, you'll simply have that neighbourhood condensed into a block.

I have problems getting the point about taking your shopping stuff in a lift. Ehm. So what? Do you have arms? In a detached family house you also have to carry the stuff to your kitchen. What does it matter if there is an additional lift in between? Unless, you buy some bulky couches (which can have delivered anyway if you don't like the hassle)

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea

And when you live in a fairly lively city, you have groceries, bakeries and everything else you need in close distance. You then don't need to make weekly shopping trips for provisions and struggle to get them home, instead you buy what you need in small quantities (hence fresh aliments, hence healthier diet) whenever you need, on your way from the metro/bus station to home.

Edit: of course, living in a suburb doesn't literally mean isolation. It means that you have to travel more to get in contact with certain people. But practically this does eventually lead to isolation, in many cases. I live in Paris and I see my friend who lives in La Defense (less than an hour away) once a year, unfortunately.

That has been a key component of the problem with suburbia for a long time: how can planners make lively cities when residential areas are initially zoned like spread apart? How can developers create commercial areas within walking distance when originally, winding roads with houses were in the original plan?

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea

And when you live in a fairly lively city, you have groceries, bakeries and everything else you need in close distance. You then don't need to make weekly shopping trips for provisions and struggle to get them home, instead you buy what you need in small quantities (hence fresh aliments, hence healthier diet) whenever you need, on your way from the metro/bus station to home.

Tell that to someone who has a full time jobs and kids.

It takes much more time to make "several" short half-hour trips instead of one 90min weekly shopping trip.

[El_Greco]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

Raising a family in an apartment just means that you can't see you children out playing, and you have take all your shopping up in a lift.

Of course you can. Many families all over the World live perfectly happily in apartments.

posted in Berlin thread by Xorcist

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Tell that to someone who has a full time jobs and kids.

It takes much more time to make "several" short half-hour trips instead of one 90min weekly shopping trip.

Western Countries throw away ludicrous ammount of perfectly good food, so maybe "several" short shopping trips would mean less food was being wasted.

[alexandru.mircea]

Just ignore Suburbanist... Like I have. But since his post was quoted, well, I can be amazed again by his agenda. I can't fathom the thought process that decides it's OK to depict the walk from the metro/bus station to home (5 or 10 minutes for me, depending on the station), one which you make anyway, as a time consuming shopping trip. Lulz. Not to mention ignoring all the advantages of buying small amounts fresh food from local business (healthier lifestyle, cheaper, better service, building a friendly environment around your home etc.)

[Dahlis]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Tell that to someone who has a full time jobs and kids.

It takes much more time to make "several" short half-hour trips instead of one 90min weekly shopping trip.

It doesnt take 30 min, its takes 5. In a city you pass by several stores on your way home anyway so there is no trip involved. Just go through the door.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Dahlis

It doesnt take 30 min, its takes 5. In a city you pass by several stores on your way home anyway so there is no trip involved. Just go through the door.

These stores are usually smaller and have a reduced assortment (less brands/flavors/variety of each item, from milk to window cleaning detergents) compared to the normal stand-alone supermarket. And their prices are either more expensive than big supermarkets, or they sell more junk items.

As for fresh produce: I like to buy them, but from some place that is big enough to have a central quality control and don't look messy, but sterile, bright and with proper labeling!

[Rebasepoiss]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

I don't really understand the idea of being isolated, because you live in the suburbs. They always say London can be one of the most lonely places in the world. Raising a family in an apartment just means that you can't see you children out playing, and you have take all your shopping up in a lift.

What I liked about growing up in an apartment was that when I was out playing (in the green areas between buildings) I actually met other children my age and spent time with them, rather than being safeguarded by my mom 24/7.

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

These stores are usually smaller and have a reduced assortment (less brands/flavors/variety of each item, from milk to window cleaning detergents) compared to the normal stand-alone supermarket. And their prices are either more expensive than big supermarkets, or they sell more junk items.

As for fresh produce: I like to buy them, but from some place that is big enough to have a central quality control and don't look messy, but sterile, bright and with proper labeling!

Firstly, this is not necessarily true. Some of the largest selections of brands, goods and fresh produce are available in the city here and it is the suburbs that are restricted even with the bigger supermarkets that are present out here. When it comes to high quality, specialised products, the city has the suburbs beat by far. When it comes to the quality of fresh goods like fresh fish, meat or veggies you're spoilt for choice. The deli range in the city is also vastly superior. Prices as well, so I've found from shopping in both, are generally equal when one compares a city centre ICA or Coop to a suburban ICA or Coop there is little to no saving to be made.

What do you mean by having a "central quality control"? I honestly don't know what you could be referring to given that quality control in bigger stores is no better or worse than smaller stores - especially in supermarket chains. I've found that the two best supermarkets in Stockholm of the ICA chain are more urban and the worst was actually in the suburbs - plus the largest ICA that I have been to is right in the centre at Kungsholmen so there goes the size argument.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Dahlis

It doesnt take 30 min, its takes 5. In a city you pass by several stores on your way home anyway so there is no trip involved. Just go through the door.

That's the city or community that I truly want to envision: a place where people can shop, work, and play close to their homes. I really like that concept a lot; sadly, planners have been dragged to much into building more homes rather than desirable communities to live.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Svartmetall

Firstly, this is not necessarily true. Some of the largest selections of brands, goods and fresh produce are available in the city here and it is the suburbs that are restricted even with the bigger supermarkets that are present out here. When it comes to high quality, specialised products, the city has the suburbs beat by far. When it comes to the quality of fresh goods like fresh fish, meat or veggies you're spoilt for choice. The deli range in the city is also vastly superior. Prices as well, so I've found from shopping in both, are generally equal when one compares a city centre ICA or Coop to a suburban ICA or Coop there is little to no saving to be made.

What do you mean by having a "central quality control"? I honestly don't know what you could be referring to given that quality control in bigger stores is no better or worse than smaller stores - especially in supermarket chains. I've found that the two best supermarkets in Stockholm of the ICA chain are more urban and the worst was actually in the suburbs - plus the largest ICA that I have been to is right in the centre at Kungsholmen so there goes the size argument.

It sounds true, even here in the San Francisco Bay Area, especially with department stores. Usually, the best would be those found in the major cities, especially here in San Francisco, wherein Macy's, Bloomingdales, and Nordstrom have their "flagship" stores, meaning they sell more than just the usual products found at other department stores. Those would usually have products unique to their stores (e.g. limited-edition shirts, bags, and shoes), and those could afford to have them because they have the buying power to sell them for a premium. It's the same story with groceries: specialist groceries sell more than the usual grocery items (e.g. Cacao beans from Colombia, red rice from Indonesia, heirloom tomatoes grown locally, and the like), and sometimes, the best grocery stores are located in small neighborhood shops, rather than the large grocery chains. It's like comparing Walmart or Aldi's to a family-owned supermarket. Quality of products and service are two key factors to making stores successful or faltering... Sadly, many businesses operate out of profit, not of service.

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss

What I liked about growing up in an apartment was that when I was out playing (in the green areas between buildings) I actually met other children my age and spent time with them, rather than being safeguarded by my mom 24/7.

In suburbs and villages, children commonly use sidewalks unattended, hang out at public parks/playgrounds, visit other children´s gardens and invite guests to their gardens.

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack

In suburbs and villages, children commonly use sidewalks unattended, hang out at public parks/playgrounds, visit other children´s gardens and invite guests to their gardens.

Yes, but I believe his point is that you can do all those things in apartments contrary to the claims of others that one cannot engage in such activities if you are an apartment dweller.

[Jonesy55]

It really depends on the specific circumstances.

Not every apartment block is as nice and well designed as the best examples that people tend to post, not every suburb is devoid of commerce, non-car transport options or social interaction, not every dense urban area is expensive or cramped for middle income families, not every suburb consists purely of luxurious detached homes.

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by Jonesy55

It really depends on the specific circumstances.

Not every apartment block is as nice and well designed as the best examples that people tend to post, not every suburb is devoid of commerce, non-car transport options or social interaction, not every dense urban area is expensive or cramped for middle income families, not every suburb consists purely of luxurious detached homes.

I can't think of any apartment blocks here where you don't have amenities nearby, doesn't have green space nearby and doesn't have facilities for children. I guess it more depends on the country you're in. I did see some badly designed apartments in the UK and some in NZ in the city centre (primarily because they were not designed with families in mind, but only singles or couples), but in countries that have a history of apartment living I think there are less.

[Jonesy55]

'Nearby' sure, but as a parent of kids aged 3-5 I'm not sure I'd be happy sending them down a few floors in the lift/stairs and outside to play on their own in the communal courtyard while I cook their dinner whereas I'm quite happy for them to play outside in our back garden.

For older children it doesn't really matter as they will go out on their own either in apartmentland or suburbia. Personally I think some private outdoor space is nice though anyway in addition to public parks and play areas.