Suburbia: Your Thoughts and Ideas

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by Jonesy55

'Nearby' sure, but as a parent of kids aged 3-5 I'm not sure I'd be happy sending them down a few floors in the lift/stairs and outside to play on their own in the communal courtyard while I cook their dinner whereas I'm quite happy for them to play outside in our back garden.

For older children it doesn't really matter as they will go out on their own either in apartmentland or suburbia. Personally I think some private outdoor space is nice though anyway in addition to public parks and play areas.

I don't know, I am not such a fan of such inefficient use of space. I certainly won't mind my kids playing in the playground out at the front. I think the paranoia culture that has swept certain countries with regards to "safety" and their views on children only serves to exacerbate the problem - ie less kids allowed out so fewer parents wish to take the first step and let them go out. Once you reach a critical mass of kids being allowed to go out and play together it just becomes normal. I think the English speaking world is particularly paranoid - the UK takes it to extremes such as in Telford where men are questioned as to why they're walking through parks where children are playing "just in case" that man may be a paedophile.

[Slartibartfas]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Tell that to someone who has a full time jobs and kids.

It takes much more time to make "several" short half-hour trips instead of one 90min weekly shopping trip.

Some people consider it not a luxury but basic stuff to get freshly baked rolls or bread in the morning (not some age old lame toasted sandwhich). If you live in an urban neighbourhood and take the transit, you most likely have a bakery on your way and have to spend merely 1-2 min for buying it. Which sums up to maybe 10 min a week.

If you prefer relying exclusively on long endurable food, you can also do a weekly shopping odyssey each weekend in an urban environment. A trolley is enough, even for most families. If you really have to buy huge amounts, get a cart for your bike. No problem there.

I also wonder, if people's time is so precious and limited how comes that they find time for their spare time job as taxi drivers from early on until the kids finally get their driving license?

[Jonesy55]

I'm not concerned about paedos but sending a 3-4 year old down several floors in a lift on his own and out to play is a disaster waiting to happen in any case.

Like I said, for older children it's not an issue, though I can't think of any actual advantage of giving up the private outdoor space we currently have to move into an apartment even if it was well designed and spacious

Telford is just strange anyway....

[poshbakerloo]

Originally Posted by LtBk

Ever heard of public parks?

Everyone knows that they are never better than the good old back garden. At night time, unless they are brightly lit, they just end up no go areas. Young children have to be taken there by there parents and watched, where as in a suburban home, the children and their friends can play out back.

[poshbakerloo]

Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea

And when you live in a fairly lively city, you have groceries, bakeries and everything else you need in close distance. You then don't need to make weekly shopping trips for provisions and struggle to get them home, instead you buy what you need in small quantities (hence fresh aliments, hence healthier diet) whenever you need, on your way from the metro/bus station to home.

Edit: of course, living in a suburb doesn't literally mean isolation. It means that you have to travel more to get in contact with certain people. But practically this does eventually lead to isolation, in many cases. I live in Paris and I see my friend who lives in La Defense (less than an hour away) once a year, unfortunately.

When I used to live in London, we lived in Kensington, right near the middle of the city in an apartment...my parents still used to drive to the super market once a week for things. They both worked and did not have time to pop out several times during the day. The drive to the super market was not easy at all, several one way systems and bad traffic.

[poshbakerloo]

Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss

What I liked about growing up in an apartment was that when I was out playing (in the green areas between buildings) I actually met other children my age and spent time with them, rather than being safeguarded by my mom 24/7.

I think a lot of depends on the culture of the area. In England, children don't really just 'play out' on there own any more. Maybe teens do, but you would never see some un supervised 10 year olds playing in the street.

[alexandru.mircea]

LOL, Suburbanist was comparing suburb hypermarkets with in-city supermarkets. Those are the same thing, one larger one smaller. What I was talking was about something completely different: my baker, my butcher, my fishery, my grocer (all closed as the GoogleMaps van probably came on a Sunday), plus my florist, my tailor, my bookshop, etc...

Of course buying only the short term necessities is cheaper. Even when the hypermarket is cheaper (not by much here - I mean France), whenever you go there you end up buying much more than you actually need. That's the idea behind them. Also, hypermarkets sell food in industrial quantities, which means several things:
- they focus on the best selling products (so if you find something more special, it's better to ask the vendor on your street to get it for you)
- the products are usually already prepared and wrapped, if you don't like what you see you can't tell the, say, butcher "I'd like that particular part from that piece of lamb, it looks the best"; as there is not much interaction with actual specialized staff, you can't get advice or can't make requests, like we do with our butcher. One great example is that when we cook certain specialities for special occasions, we ask the baker to bake us some of the components (like the "chouix"), which we get from them still warm, a couple of hours before the lunch. That would not be possible with a supermarket/hypermarket, they are not run this way. The above mentioned fresh baked croissants/rolls for the morning coffee are also a delicious example.

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

When I used to live in London, we lived in Kensington, right near the middle of the city in an apartment...my parents still used to drive to the super market once a week for things. They both worked and did not have time to pop out several times during the day. The drive to the super market was not easy at all, several one way systems and bad traffic.

I've only visited London once so I don't know how representative my impressions are, but I didn't find London to have a great street buzz (in the sense we're talking on this page). Some of less central zones can be very quiet indeed, like the Parisian suburbs (and looking over the map I suspect Kensington could be a suburb and not a city district if London was organized the way Paris is). I don't know if I actually visited Kensington but I do remember entering such a calm, deserted residential area when exiting Hyde Park.
In this sense, I found Edinburgh to be the most lively city in the UK (from what I visited, of course), with the busiest streets in terms of commerce.

Edit - found on Wiki: "The focus of the area is Kensington High Street, a busy commercial centre with many shops, typically upmarket. The street was declared London's second best shopping street in February 2005 thanks to its range and number of shops." Dunno what to say.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

Everyone knows that they are never better than the good old back garden. At night time, unless they are brightly lit, they just end up no go areas. Young children have to be taken there by there parents and watched, where as in a suburban home, the children and their friends can play out back.

That is so true... Many public parks nowadays are haven for the homeless and druggies, especially at night, because those areas are usually unsupervised by the police, and if those are, may have limited powers to arrest or cite them. It may sound bad to see someone carrying rubbish bags in a park looking for scrap food and drink, but sadly, that's reality.

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

That is so true... Many public parks nowadays are haven for the homeless and druggies, especially at night, because those areas are usually unsupervised by the police, and if those are, may have limited powers to arrest or cite them. It may sound bad to see someone carrying rubbish bags in a park looking for scrap food and drink, but sadly, that's reality.

Many public parks? That's a bit of a broad statement and it is certainly not true the world over. Remember, your experience in one part of America is not the same as across America and certainly not across the world.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Svartmetall

Many public parks? That's a bit of a broad statement and it is certainly not true the world over. Remember, your experience in one part of America is not the same as across America and certainly not across the world.

What I meant about "many public parks" would be those I've visited to start with... Sorry if I've gone a little too far with that. But, I've been to public parks in Manila as well (where I grew up), and those have similar issues with American parks as well, including the homeless, street peddlers, and beggars.

[Jonesy55]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

I think a lot of depends on the culture of the area. In England, children don't really just 'play out' on there own any more. Maybe teens do, but you would never see some un supervised 10 year olds playing in the street.

Yes you would, kids that age are always out on their bikes together here during daylight hours.

[Skyprince]

I just returned from Istanbul and I must say I love its urban development concept

Istanbul and its suburbs have excellent public transport system, full of high-rise dwellings but with good living space ( unlike in some East Asian countries ) , minimal landed properties, and almost in every suburb I went to ( i.e. Uskudar, Kadikoy, and many other suburbs on the way to Sabiha Gokcen airport and deep towards Europe ) is filled with great number of shops, hypermarkets, restaurants, doner/street food etc its really incredible I haven't seen such vibe and density outside East Asia and Dubai ! Quite a big number of eateries and shops open till late midnight and many even open 24 hrs. The suburbs of Istanbul are built for ease of pedestrians.

Having the most expensive petrol/gasoline in the world means big majority of Istanbul residents use public transport and only allow largely the rich with posh cars to drive on its its streets. Great idea to keep the stylish image of Istanbul

Other than poor earthquake-proof construction and few minor issues I must say Istanbul is overall a successful metropolitan area.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Skyprince

I just returned from Istanbul and I must say I love its urban development concept

Istanbul and its suburbs have excellent public transport system, full of high-rise dwellings but with good living space ( unlike in some East Asian countries ) , minimal landed properties, and almost in every suburb I went to ( i.e. Uskudar, Kadikoy, and many other suburbs on the way to Sabiha Gokcen airport and deep towards Europe ) is filled with great number of shops, hypermarkets, restaurants, doner/street food etc its really incredible I haven't seen such density outside East Asia and Dubai ! Quite a big number of eateries and shops open till late midnight and many even open 24 hrs. The suburbs of Istanbul are built for ease of pedestrians.

Having the most expensive petrol/gasoline in the world means big majority of Istanbul residents use public transport and only allow largely the rich with posh cars to drive on its its streets. Great idea to keep the stylish image of Istanbul

Interesting observations.

And by the way, you can post pics here to show your points as well.

[Jonesy55]

Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea

I've only visited London once so I don't know how representative my impressions are, but I didn't find London to have a great street buzz (in the sense we're talking on this page). Some of less central zones can be very quiet indeed, like the Parisian suburbs (and looking over the map I suspect Kensington could be a suburb and not a city district if London was organized the way Paris is). I don't know if I actually visited Kensington but I do remember entering such a calm, deserted residential area when exiting Hyde Park.
In this sense, I found Edinburgh to be the most lively city in the UK (from what I visited, of course), with the busiest streets in terms of commerce.

Edit - found on Wiki: "The focus of the area is Kensington High Street, a busy commercial centre with many shops, typically upmarket. The street was declared London's second best shopping street in February 2005 thanks to its range and number of shops." Dunno what to say.

It really depends when and where you go, there are quiet residential streets in central areas of London, there are many busy commercial areas in outlying districts. Edinburgh certainly isn't busier overall as there are far fewer people, move away from the centre into residential areas there too and it will soon become much quieter.

Paris too has some quieter districts within the perepherique and beyond that there is plenty of suburbia.

In Kensington it would be perfectly possible, and probably easiest to shop on foot using small local stores, I'm not really sure why you would take a long and congested drive out to a hypermarket

Maybe they had the same problem I do, during the working week these nice small local butchers, bakers, delis, grocers, fishmongers etc are closed when I leave for work at 0745 and closed again when I return from work at 1900 whereas big supermarkets and convenience stores are open until at least 2200 or some open 24/7. I tend to wait until the weekend and go to the shops I prefer but if we need some stuff during the week i'll get it from a supermarket in the evening.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

That's the city or community that I truly want to envision: a place where people can shop, work, and play close to their homes. I really like that concept a lot; sadly, planners have been dragged to much into building more homes rather than desirable communities to live.

Looks like a receipt for ingrained mentality, where you need to meet the people you work with (in a bank office, say) also in the supermarket at night and at the local eatery Sunday, and then you have your children studying and playing with people from your office and the supermarket you buy at.

No, thanks. The whole purpose of modern transportation is to expand, rather than shrink, the radius in which you interact, so that you most certainly will not meet your workplaces near your house, and you will not meet the hairdresses taking her kid to the sport park where you take your children, and you won't meet the coach for the aforementioned sports' club when you are jogging near your house early in the morning.

This concept of "community" is medieval, outdated and should be uprooted by design (such as creating enormous tracts of residential-only areas and enable, by whatever means, commuting so that in the future travelling 100 miles to your workplace in a futuristic pod/vehicle is the norm, rather than the exception).

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I also wonder, if people's time is so precious and limited how comes that they find time for their spare time job as taxi drivers from early on until the kids finally get their driving license?

The majority of adult people I know (past age 20-22) would be willing to do almost any sacrifice to cater to their children. I certainly would. Moreover, if you are a taxi driver for your children, you as a parent has another enormous tool: passive control of where they are going and, to an extent, whom they are seeing. Not a total control (which would be negative), but more control than someone who is 8 and is growing in Manhattan or Canary Wharf.

My parents certainly did use their ability to shuttle me around to keep an eye on me, and I certainly plan on doing the same, though I'm more and more convinced the scenario that appeals me most is to live in a disused farm not far from a medium-sized (200-500K) city, so that isolation from neighbors, their noises, their lives and their own children is almost complete in a 1km radius.

[El_Greco]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

(such as creating enormous tracts of residential-only areas and enable, by whatever means, commuting so that in the future travelling 100 miles to your workplace in a futuristic pod/vehicle is the norm, rather than the exception).

What youre saying is that we need more sprawl. No we need less sprawl and more density and height.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

What youre saying is that we need more sprawl. No we need less sprawl and more density and height.

not necessarily sprawl. Just function-exclusive zoning. Nothing precludes you building a large complex to 10 high-rises with ONLY residences and absolutely nothing else.

[El_Greco]

Why build it in the middle of nowhere? Zoning has long been proven to be a failure. A city is supposed to be a dense and urban area where people live, work and play, it should not be treated as an office building - ie a place where people work only and which they abandon once the clock hits 5.

[intensivecarebear]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Looks like a receipt for ingrained mentality, where you need to meet the people you work with (in a bank office, say) also in the supermarket at night and at the local eatery Sunday, and then you have your children studying and playing with people from your office and the supermarket you buy at.

No, thanks. The whole purpose of modern transportation is to expand, rather than shrink, the radius in which you interact, so that you most certainly will not meet your workplaces near your house, and you will not meet the hairdresses taking her kid to the sport park where you take your children, and you won't meet the coach for the aforementioned sports' club when you are jogging near your house early in the morning.

This concept of "community" is medieval, outdated and should be uprooted by design (such as creating enormous tracts of residential-only areas and enable, by whatever means, commuting so that in the future travelling 100 miles to your workplace in a futuristic pod/vehicle is the norm, rather than the exception).

Yes, you wouldn't want to run into the rif-raff oh noble prince!
Jeez you are quite possibly the most misanthropic and miserable-sounding person on this site.
It's ironic that you constantly complain about "socialist" social engineering and all that trite libertarian nonsense, yet you essentially advocate social engineering of a different kind - one that encourages sprawl and decreases human interaction. Tell me, on what planet is "encouraging" a paved paradise of suburban cul-de-sacs (not to mention subsidized freeway construction) and strip malls not social engineering?