American Arts and Crafts Museum -- Curtis Hixon

[kmthurman]

I think this deserves it's own thread after looking at the documents involved in it. I know some may not like the proposed early design, but I like the framing of Curtis Hixon, addition of a Riverwalk Restruant, and what seems like a darn good museum. But mostly if someone wants to build their own museum in Tampa for $35 million and are only asking for some support from the city in the first 5 years it great news:

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_public_...20Proposal.pdf

[jonknee]

Interesting, though it appears they're asking for City support after the first 5 years ($1M for 5 years and $500k afterwards).

[kmthurman]

Originally Posted by jonknee

Interesting, though it appears they're asking for City support after the first 5 years ($1M for 5 years and $500k afterwards).

They altered the proposal in an addendum letter just asking for just the 5 years after it's open -- which for a $31 million private funded museum is a decent deal for taxpayers imho.

But they also demolition of the existing structures. But they also are asking for parking, lack of taxes, liquor license as the TB Times article says:

American Craftsman Museum proposed for Tampa's Curtis Hixon Waterfront Park

By Susan Thurston and Richard Danielson, Times Staff Writers

Published Friday, October 5, 2012

TAMPA — The Palm Harbor-based Two Red Roses Foundation has proposed building a $31 million American Craftsman Museum at Curtis Hixon Waterfront Park.

A proposal released Friday shows that the foundation would need public support of $1 million a year for five years.

The museum would house an extensive collection of decorative objects from the 1900 to 1920 American Arts and Crafts movement owned by the foundation's founder Rudy Ciccarello.

Under terms of the 42-page proposal to the city of Tampa, the nonprofit foundation would build and operate the museum and provide space for an upscale restaurant along the Hillsborough River. The proposal did not identify what restaurant might go in the space.

The up to 75,000-square-foot museum would occupy a narrow strip of land from Ashley Drive to the river, across the park lawn from the Tampa Museum of Art and Glazer Children's Museum. The land now houses the park's rest rooms and office.

The project would complete Curtis Hixon and the adjacent Kiley Garden and serve as a catalyst to invigorate both parks, according to the proposal. The museum would have a store along Ashley and provide space for the Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce and the Tampa chapter of the American Institute of Architects. It could also include a Tampa Welcome Center where visitors could buy multi-museum tickets.

In an announcement of the proposal, Mayor Bob Buckhorn said the project "would bring the downtown experience to the next level."

"The area around Curtis Hixon Park has always been envisioned as the core of arts and culture in our community," he said. "This project would further energize our urban core and Riverwalk. The Two Red Roses Foundation collection of American Arts and Crafts offers something totally unique in our area."

The city issued a request for proposals for the museum and restaurant in August, and Two Red Roses was the only bidder. As proposed, the museum would rent the land from the city for $1 a year.

Once open, the museum would seek $1 million in city and county funding for five years. But the foundation's proposal makes clear that's not all the public support the museum would need. It also is seeking:

• A waiver from having to pay any impact fees, as well as sewer, water and electrical hook-up fees.

• A similar waiver on all property taxes for the life of the museum.

• 30 free parking spaces from the city.

• Demolition of the existing structures and preparation of the site at the city's expense.

• City help acquiring a liquor license for the restaurant.

The museum would be designed by Ybor City-based Alfonso Architects, which designed the Chihuly Collection at the Morean Arts Center in St. Petersburg and the former Tampa Museum of Art at Curtis Hixon.

The foundation's proposal included letters of support from the Henry B. Plant Museum across the river at the University of Tampa, the Hillsborough County Arts Council and Tampa Preservation, Inc. Officials from the two other museums at the park site last month said they were not aware of the project.

[tampasteve]

I like the design. Looks good, and in keeping with the other two museums.

Steve

[koopalicious]

Originally Posted by kmthurman

I know some may not like the proposed early design, but I like the framing of Curtis Hixon, addition of a Riverwalk Restruant, and what seems like a darn good museum.

Originally Posted by tampasteve

I like the design. Looks good, and in keeping with the other two museums.

Am I missing something? It hasn't been designed yet...

[TampaMike]

Originally Posted by tampasteve

I like the design. Looks good, and in keeping with the other two museums.

Steve

The images in the link aren't for the museum, they're other museums that Alfonso Architects have done in the past.

I can't expect anything but a good design from them.

[tampasteve]

Originally Posted by TampaMike

The images in the link aren't for the museum, they're other museums that Alfonso Architects have done in the past.

I can't expect anything but a good design from them.

Ha, that is what I get for not reading it completely!

Steve

[kmthurman]

Originally Posted by tampasteve

Ha, that is what I get for not reading it completely!

Steve

Me too! But I do like the footprint.

[jonknee]

Originally Posted by koopalicious

Am I missing something? It hasn't been designed yet...

There's definitely a design in progress, it's just not included in that document.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by kmthurman

They altered the proposal in an addendum letter just asking for just the 5 years after it's open -- which for a $31 million private funded museum is a decent deal for taxpayers imho.

But they also demolition of the existing structures. But they also are asking for parking, lack of taxes, liquor license as the TB Times article says:

So $1 million a year for 5 years. Plus;

Free land ($1 a year rent is free in my book)
No impact fees.
No property taxes, ever
30 free parking spaces, forever
Free demo
Free pass through liquor license process.

We're talking millions, almost certainly around $10 million in handouts by the time a decade has passed. And that's only if the museum does well and doesn't need any more handouts after the first 5 years.

And let's not forget, this will bisect what is currently the only large, open air public space in DT Tampa, turning an open space of several acres all adjacent to one another, into 2 spaces which can't hold more than a few thousand people even if they pack in like sardines. Big open air fireworks or concerts, gone. Big open air rallies (like gay pride or whatever), gone. Big open space for Gasparilla Art Festival, gone. Anyone who believes the remarks about view corridors being preserved need to stop pretending they understand urban planning and design.

So as I suggested at our little GTG a couple of weeks ago, they want A LOT in return for the right to give us a museum of questionable attractiveness to visitors.

My guess is that for the kind of money they want from taxpayers (roughly $10 million), I could come up with a plan that would partner with a private developer (who would invest their own monies beyond the $10 mil) to turn Kiley and Curtis Hixon into the kind of truly cohesive urban 'central park' that this space should have been in the first place, replete with multiple commercial spaces fronting the riverwalk, and covering up the retarded Twiggs extension that should have been eliminated in the first place.

If this museum needs one red cent of public support, then I say the taxpayers get to pick its location, and I say it should go up in Waterworks Park, or on one of the vacant blocks along Ashley St or Zack St (you know, the city's 'Boulevard of the Arts' that has no such facilities). On land they pay for, btw.

[smiley]

Originally Posted by kmthurman

Me too! But I do like the footprint.

what about it?

[Jasonhouse]

^It looks like a foot?

lol

[kmthurman]

Originally Posted by smiley

what about it?

I think it currently preserves views of UT, river and provides another place to enjoy the Riverwalk from a Restaurant, but preserves the entire area that people use for events (and use day to day) as the open space that's made Curtis Hixon successful.

[kmthurman]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

So $1 million a year for 5 years. Plus;

Free land ($1 a year rent is free in my book)
No impact fees.
No property taxes, ever
30 free parking spaces, forever
Free demo
Free pass through liquor license process.

This isn't a business -- it's a museum.

Impact fees, property taxes, free land, and government monetary support is how museum are supported in this country -- see the following explanation we give to developing nations.

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/am...inancially.pdf

This is less than TMA, History Center, Children's Museum, or Aquarium ever asked for from the city/county.

We're talking millions, almost certainly around $10 million in handouts by the time a decade has passed. And that's only if the museum does well and doesn't need any more handouts after the first 5 years.

I think you think the money behind this is a lot smaller than it is. But the concern about being on the hook in the future is a fair one and that is why the city should have a contract giving them the building if ACM can't support it after 5 years.

And let's not forget, this will bisect what is currently the only large, open air public space in DT Tampa, turning an open space of several acres all adjacent to one another, into 2 spaces which can't hold more than a few thousand people even if they pack in like sardines.

They are already two parks and are bisected BY A FRIGGIN STREET. I get opposing it, but pretending Kiley & Curtis Hixon are a single park and used as such is crazy.

Big open air fireworks or concerts, gone. Big open air rallies (like gay pride or whatever), gone. Big open space for Gasparilla Art Festival, gone.

Zero of these events use Kiley and the fencing for these events excludes the area being discussed.

Anyone who believes the remarks about view corridors being preserved need to stop pretending they understand urban planning and design.

Why? I really don't know.

So as I suggested at our little GTG a couple of weeks ago, they want A LOT in return for the right to give us a museum of questionable attractiveness to visitors.

They are investing $35 million in construction and spending budget spending nearly $2.4 million a year on top of public funds. the ONLY one like this in Tampa -- ever. And while you may not like and Arts and Crafts museum -- its the only museum we'd have in this ton that actually generate it's own visitors.

My guess is that for the kind of money they want from taxpayers (roughly $10 million), I could come up with a plan that would partner with a private developer (who would invest their own monies beyond the $10 mil) to turn Kiley and Curtis Hixon into the kind of truly cohesive urban 'central park' that this space should have been in the first place, replete with multiple commercial spaces fronting the riverwalk, and covering up the retarded Twiggs extension that should have been eliminated in the first place.

Okay, then do it. Clearly the city is ready to help someone and are willing to do stuff. There is no deal right now, just put up your own proposal, tell the Times about it (because they hate this idea) and push for it. At minimum it might get a better deal.

[smiley]

Originally Posted by kmthurman

I think it currently preserves views of UT, river and provides another place to enjoy the Riverwalk from a Restaurant, but preserves the entire area that people use for events (and use day to day) as the open space that's made Curtis Hixon successful.

1) how would you know unless you got to see rendering that were not released?
2) from the map they presented, nope.
3) no one knows how tall it would be

[kmthurman]

Originally Posted by smiley

1) how would you know unless you got to see rendering that were not released?
2) from the map they presented, nope.
3) no one knows how tall it would be

1) I believe the footprint provides what I am talking about and they have a specific page on that, and I believe the design isn't presented yet and the city shouldn't commit to anything until it's done.

2) What can you see on the southern edge of the park that isn't already blocked by a parking garage everyone claims is a park (and btw it is not part of curtis hixon. From the eastern edge everything but kennedy, from the western edge nothing is changed of course.

3) Unless they plan on building on 1/2 the land or copying TMA it can't be more than two stories or it would have way more than the 75K sq feet as the land itself has 53K sq feet.

[kmthurman]

As for views and events ....

What you see from the northern edge right now:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/visittampabay/4503702450/

What you see from the eastern edge right now where there would be a restraunt:

http://skateparkoftampa.com/spot/phi.aspx?I=22815

I am saying -- the garage already does what people are worried about in many respects and it would allow us to create two different parks with Curtis Hixon and Kiley connected through that main north/south road

[jonknee]

I have been to dozens of events at Curtis Hixon and not one spanned into Kiley Gardens. Gasparilla, concerts, art festivals, charity events, fireworks and even the RNC. What events are you attending that utilize both spaces?

There is a street and a significant grade difference, they're very separate.

[kmthurman]

Originally Posted by jonknee

I have been to dozens of events at Curtis Hixon and not one spanned into Kiley Gardens. Gasparilla, concerts, art festivals, charity events, fireworks and even the RNC. What events are you attending that utilize both spaces?

There is a street and a significant grade difference, they're very separate.

In fairness Gasparilla music festival did once. But clearly I agree with you -- I would even venture to say that entire area of the park is rarely used during events or during normal use.

[TPAMAN]

I think the city should persuade them to pursue the block across the street from Five Guys. This would encourage people to "cross the street into our downtown core" and maybe give some life to those areas...promote some walkability and spread the wealth and downtown experience outside the park.
I agree with Jason they should promote museums and such up their "AVENUE" to help maximize the city's investment.
My office is at Tampa Union Station and I would love nothing more than somehow bringing all these museums under one fold where visitors take the time to visit each of them during a visit (i.e. the ones at Curtis Hixon, this one up the Avenue somewhere, The Firefighters Museum, and end at Union Station with some type of Railroad/Transportation Museum which first opened up Florida as the ORIGINAL tourist market. It would liven up this dreamed up avenue and possibly generate hotel construction and activity along the corridor.