Oxford unveils $3-billion casino, convention centre proposal for downtown Toronto

[crooked soul]

firstly.. sorry for making a new thread.. but I think it deserves it's own..
although, I am all for a Casino in Toronto..
I feel that Exhibition Place is the best choice location and it should be built there... having this Oxford proposal downtown by Rogers Centre just is soo cluttered and quite awkward - especially with all the concert/sports events - before and after the shows would be a nightmare to try to get into and out of..yes you can tell I am not a fan of this proposed location- no matter how they dress it up..
leave it to the Exhibition grounds.. there is sooo much more potential in that location.. it makes complete sense.. and would suit that area well.. and there would be a huge potential for expansion and have that area thrive beyond comprehension.




http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10...ntown-toronto/

Oxford unveils $3-billion casino, convention centre proposal for downtown Toronto


The proposal by Oxford would see massive changes to Front Street.

Oxford Properties Group upped the ante on Friday among Toronto’s casino suitors with details of a $3-billion plus proposal for a swath of downtown real estate next to the Rogers Centre that would see black jack tables among a new hotel, residential, office space and a redeveloped Metro Toronto Convention Centre.

The group hired Foster + Partners, the architects behind Abu Dhabi’s Masdar City Development, Washington’s Smithsonian Institute and London’s Canary Wharf Underground Station, to sketch out a master plan for Oxford Place, located on 11 acres on the south side of Front Street, between Simcoe Street and Blue Jay Way.

The plan, contingent on authorities giving a casino the go-ahead, includes a new and expanded convention centre, new retail, office and residential space, 4,000 new underground parking spots and an “integrated casino and hotel complex.” The casino would make up less than 10% of the project, Oxford said in a press release, and would be funded, built and operated by the casino operator selected by the provincial government, should it do so. The company is also contemplating a new 5.5 acre park over the existing rail corridor.

“Although the casino itself represents less than 10% of the project’s area, it is a necessary and essential catalyst for the entire development and is a use that will be complementary to Toronto’s core in the way that we have designed and conceived it,” said Michael Kitt, Oxford’s executive vice president in Canada, in a press release.

The Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp. in March announced plans to build a new casino in greater Toronto, but says it will not put one in a city that does not want one. The issue has triggered considerable debate in Toronto, with people voicing their support and opposition at a public forum this week. Paul Godfrey, chairman of the OLG and also chief executive of Postmedia Network Inc., the parent company of the National Post, has said that downtown Toronto is OLG’s first choice. Caesars, MGM Resorts, Las Vegas Sands Corp., Woodbine Entertainment and Onex Corp. have all expressed interest, with Caesars in particular saying it considers the Metro Toronto Convention Centre as the best site. MGM prefers Exhibition Place.

“If the decision is made to have a casino in the City of Toronto, Oxford believes it can provide the best location and the ideal solution for all stakeholders,” Blake Hutcheson, president and CEO of Oxford Properties, said in the press release. “We have engaged an extraordinary team to develop the very best plan for this site and to transform this entertainment and commercial hub into a world class destination.”


The Oxford proposal.


The proposed location of the casino and hotel is on the western edge of the property. Renderings depict two hotel towers on that part of the land, with the casino at the base of one, and another two sky scrapers on the eastern side for commercial and residential. The company wants to phase construction of the new, state-of-the-art convention space before demolition begins. “The expanded convention centre would result in over 22 acres of contiguous exhibit space,” the press release said.

The company described its proposal as a “well-conceived private sector solution” that does not require public infrastructure or other funding.

“We would not take this on if we did not think we could deliver a bull’s eye solution to this complex issue, and we will work with all stakeholders to deliver an extremely positive result for the City of Toronto,” Mr. Hutcheson said.

Details of the project provided by Oxford:

11 acres with 7.35 million square feet (SF) of master planned mixed-use development

Elements:
* 1.1 million SF of Convention Centre
* 2.5 million SF of Office
* 1 million SF of Retail
* 600,000 SF of Residential
* 450,000 SF of Casino and Amenity Space
* 1.7 million SF of Hotel and Amenity Space
* 4,000 Parking Stalls On-Site
* 5.5 acres of public parkland, cooperating with neighboring stakeholders

Timeline:
Contingent on City of Toronto support and Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation operator selection process. Oxford will be in a position to submit a rezoning application shortly after the necessary decisions are made.

[Taller, Better]

Don't apologize for making a new thread... I was just about to do the same thing!
This has now become my favourite proposal for a new casino and will free up Ontario
Place/Exhibition Place for something different. Plus we get a new, more contemporary
Convention Centre to boot. And another Foster building for all those folk pining for
another Foster building. Win-Win solution. And, the apparently dreaded word "condo" is not involved, as it
seems to fuel the simplistic Pavlovian knee-jerk response of people wanting to reject the
Mirvish proposal. Exciting times for Toronto!

[Marcanadian]

The towers look amazing and Foster being involved is an unexpected bonus, but I'm not so sure about the location. I feel that a casino right downtown would act as a vacuum, killing local businesses. Not to mention parking - a giant casino would need plenty of parking.

[crooked soul]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Don't apologize for making a new thread... I was just about to do the same thing!
This has now become my favourite proposal for a new casino and will free up Ontario
Place/Exhibition Place for something different. Plus we get a new, more contemporary
Convention Centre to boot. And another Foster building for all those folk pining for
another Foster building. Win-Win solution. And, the apparently dreaded word "condo" is not involved, as it
seems to fuel the simplistic Pavlovian knee-jerk response of people wanting to reject the
Mirvish proposal. Exciting times for Toronto!

thanks man..!!!

actually .. the dreaded word Condo is just disguised as "residential & Office" in the second picture..

as stated in my previous posts in threads on these boards.. I am all for growth in the Entertainment District - it is needed.. it isn't called the ED for nothing.. so it should have more venues etc...
but this rendering is quite lackluster.. just a string of towers.. and grass at the bottom which eats up the front of Roger's Centre - kinda like moving into their territory - that whole front street would look out of place and cause major traffic and distractions..

Originally Posted by Marcanadian

The towers look amazing and Foster being involved is an unexpected bonus, but I'm not so sure about the location. I feel that a casino right downtown would act as a vacuum, killing local businesses. Not to mention parking - a giant casino would need plenty of parking.

I agree with what you said.. the location would act as a vacuum.. it looks cluttered and quite congested...
would they even have room for a concert/entertainment venue which all sucessful casinos have- ala Avalon -Niagara Falls- Casino Rama..have?
to me it just looks like buildings with probably a floor for casino's and another excuse for a condo..
at least the Gehry project has more imagination and looks vibrant..

and there are already a whole bunch of hotels in that area..I am sure they are just thrilled with this notion..
in the Exhibition grounds it would make more sense. cause the hotels there are kinda spread out in that specific area..

I can't wait to see what the proposed idea for Exhibition grounds will be like..
I bet it would be epic and add class -

[Marcanadian]

Originally Posted by crooked soul

as stated in my previous posts in threads on these boards.. I am all for growth in the Entertainment District - it is needed.. it isn't called the ED for nothing.. so it should have more venues etc...
but this rendering is quite lackluster.. just a string of towers.. and grass at the bottom which eats up the front of Roger's Centre - kinda like moving into their territory - that whole front street would look out of place and cause major traffic and distractions..

I agree with what you said.. the location would act as a vacuum.. it looks cluttered and quite congested...
would they even have room for a concert/entertainment venue which all sucessful casinos have- ala Avalon -Niagara Falls- Casino Rama..have?
to me it just looks like buildings with probably a floor for casino's and another excuse for a condo..
at least the Gehry project has more imagination and looks vibrant..

and there are already a whole bunch of hotels in that area..I am sure they are just thrilled with this notion..
in the Exhibition grounds it would make more sense. cause the hotels there are kinda spread out in that specific area..

The grassy part is actually a proposed park over the rail tracks, not unlike Millennium Park in Chicago. This is a really great idea.

As for the hotel part, I think a hotel is needed as the Intercontinental will be demolished. Apparently there will be 4000 parking stalls, which I don't think is overly excessive. The problem is, Oxford is saying that the remaining parking demand will be satisfied by the other lots around the core. I think that will just add congestion to the core. The good thing is that this proposal is well served by transit, so it will likely discourage some car use. Still, if this thing goes through, GO will seriously need to increase service on all lines.

[Innsertnamehere]

Luckily that is in the plans. (2 way all day service)

[Marcanadian]

Yeah it is, as long as Hudak doesn't mess it up should he get in.

[Urbanista1]

we could use the jobs, but this is a transit/transportation nightmare. getting around TO is already a stressful daily horror, now add this attraction, not so sure. it's a shame feds and province have been playing these transit funding games for years delaying essential transit improvements that could make such developments feasible without destroying quality of life and killing other businesses and jobs. on the other hand, the new Union Station will be able to handle more volumes. Interesting to see what the traffic studies will show...hope city does it's own. as it stands this development may actually kill as many jobs as it generates.

[Mercenary]

They would have to demolish the RBC building that is currently there.

This would take atleast a year to get approved and another year to get the necessary funding in place to start construction and which itself will take around 5 years.

This idea won't come to fruition until 2020.

But I gotta admit, Toronto by 2020 will have an amazing skyline.

[Skybean]

The hotel twins look really boring. Norman Foster designed those?! Why not make all 4 towers cohesive in design? It looks like they are not related at all.

[AndrewJM3D]

Just an FYI to all of you, Oxford has had a plan in the works for a very long time now. I'm sure they just quickly threw a casino into their plan to hopefully get more funding for a development. With or without the casino element Oxford is ready to make good on redeveloping that site. I have an inside source.

With that said I think it's a terrible location for a casino, anywhere in the downtown is a bad location. Toronto does not need a casino. casino's are built by lazy and unimaginative governments to pilfer the public into handing over more money then they can afford. Whatever happened to Mc Mayors Woodbine Live? If he or anybody else must have a casino dump it in the burbs where it will do less damage.

[crooked soul]

MGM has a better idea and approach to location
I think having MGM's proposal approved would be monumental and amazing!

MGM Resorts International, one of the casino giants lobbying Toronto councillors on the benefits of a downtown gambling mecca, is sweetening the pot with the promise of a permanent Cirque du Soleil facility.

MGM wants to build a $3 billion to $4 billion resort with a 1,000-room hotel, convention space, restaurants, entertainment and shopping — a complex that would succeed only if it boosts tourism to Toronto. It would directly create 8,000 new jobs, including 5,000 in construction over three years, Feldman claimed.

MGM’s preferred location is Exhibition Place, possibly with some family-friendly attractions on the Ontario Place side of Lake Shore Blvd. W., but the company is willing to look at other downtown Toronto locations.

Oxford pales into comparison - imho
Exhibition is more logical.. and besides the space is there just waiting to be built and can you imagine any future expansions in that area..it wouldn't feel soo vacant on the non-summer months.. it would be a brand new community

[Toronto2008]

Pros:
- new park
- partially covered rail tracks
- more construction jobs during poor economic times
- A NEW PARK!
- casino (for the entertainment venue)
- getting rid of the life sucking, soulless concrete rectangle called MTCC
- bringing more residents to the area around a major transportation hub and existing infrastructure (Union Station)
- Sir Norman Foster
- skyline extension eastward
- $0 cost to the public purse (social programs for gambling notwithstanding)
- more office space Downtown (remember the "oh, all the condos are sucking away all the spots for office buildings" people??)
- buildings managed by Oxford
- density!
- $3 billion invested in the 416


Cons:
- casino
- 2 butt-ugly hotels
- low paying casino jobs


If there is a provision added for a percentage of casino revenues to be directed towards funding social programs, then I have no problem with this proposal. Give it legs.... as long as they put some effort into those hotel buildings. Yuck. Oh, and a big fountain for the park! City council has a lot of power to steer this project to benefit the city. Don't eff it up!

Also, I do not buy into that "vacuum" theory one bit. This is Toronto, not Niagara falls.

[Taller, Better]

I'll tell you what; I'm kind of loving them all fighting over who will build here as I imagine the stakes will be raised and the pot sweetened a few times yet. I do not buy the old automatic Casinos-Are-Inherently-Bad theory, no matter how hard it has been hammered into Urban Studies students since way back in the day when I was a student. I hope these proposals are not all tossed out simply on an old "truism". I agree with Toronto2008; Toronto is not Niagara Falls or Detroit, so people are going to have to work harder to convince me than just dredging up examples like those. And, I also don't buy the usual "World Class Cities Don't Have Casinos". May have been true in the '70's but times have changed.

[mdparker]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

I'll tell you what; I'm kind of loving them all fighting over who will build here as I imagine the stakes will be raised and the pot sweetened a few times yet. I do not buy the old automatic Casinos-Are-Inherently-Bad theory, no matter how hard it has been hammered into Urban Studies students since way back in the day when I was a student. I hope these proposals are not all tossed out simply on an old "truism". I agree with Toronto2008; Toronto is not Niagara Falls or Detroit, so people are going to have to work harder to convince me than just dredging up examples like those. And, I also don't buy the usual "World Class Cities Don't Have Casinos". May have been true in the '70's but times have changed.

Agreed... A modern day casino is not even what one would think of a casino anymore, unless they've been watching too many Scorcese flicks... This looks like a no brainer... Beautiful park to boot... My advice: When the Fosters and Ghery's of this world come knocking on your doorstep, don't get too pedantic or morally fussy... These two "projects" put Toronto up onto another level... This is big-city type development for the downtown... Don't fuss and micromanage it to death...

[koolio]

I am not opposed to casinos but I don't think this is the best place in the city for it. Is the Exhibition Place option dead? I think this project will be fine without a casino attached to it (it will maybe become slightly smaller scale). On the other hand, Exhibition Place will definitely benefit from a year round entertainment centre and I think the slightly more isolated location will be more beneficial for all the parties involved.

[Toronto2008]

We gain a lot more on Front street with this project. At Exhibition Place we *only* gain a casino and a hotel (possibly more parking too). There are no other benefits from what I can see.

Also, they are willing to drop 3 billion for this project get only release 2 renders?! Not cool, Oxford.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by Skybean

The hotel twins look really boring. Norman Foster designed those?! Why not make all 4 towers cohesive in design? It looks like they are not related at all.

This is a very valid point. The twin hotel towers are boring, and do not look in any way connected to the other one. And the heavily designed one, as has been pointed out, appears to have been lifted directly from a previous project. All three towers should be more cohesive looking, I think, and ideally I would prefer to see something not quite so similar to his past work.

The thing is.... I think the Exhibition Place/ Ontario place options are a non-starter. Just too much opposition to using the lakefront for a casino. This option offers a stellar new convention centre, which is a huge boon to the city. The only real argument left is the standard "Casinos are the Devil's Handiwork" that most people will fall back on. The suggestion to do it somewhere out of the city is nonsensical. No one is going to invest 3 billion dollars in making a new mega casino complex out in the boonies. Just is not ever going to happen; it HAS to be close to downtown to work. This location is perfect; it is right beside the biggest tourist draw we have (CN Tower). It is not a traditional residential neighbourhood. There remain concerns about the increased stress it will place on civic infrastructure, but this is a 3 billion dollar project; make them cough up money for subway improvements, etc... Ditto for the Mirvish proposal; don't let any of the big projects get off scot free, but encourage them to contribute to our infrastructure.

[Mercenary]

Will the Casino be open 24/7?

I think a lot of social problems can be avoided if the Casino closes at 12am on weekdays and 2am on weekends.

[Epi]

I think until we see actual plans of this project it is too early to really say anything about it (the large version of these pictures state clearly that the illustrations are for massing/illustration only). Just because a big name is involved does not guarantee it's going to be good.

If we're going to replace the convention centre, it would be nice to have a nice looking iconic convention centre, instead of another generic looking box. If we're going to have a big hotel, it would be nice to get some details or else maybe we're going to be getting a 1000-bed Howard Johnson.

Even worse, while the articles state that they want the 'province' to run the casino, what's to say that they don't actually want something like Sands to be building it? Casinos are massively profitable enterprises, the house always wins. If we let something like Sands/MGM/Wynn build a casino in downtown, we're more or less giving them license to print money, and basically completely destroying any revenue that all the other casinos in the GTA make. Fat chance that Casino Rama or Casino Niagara or even the Great White Heron casino makes any money now!

As well how feasible is this park over the tracks going to be? I mean obviously we all want to see it, our own mini Shinjuku station here in Toronto. But will this park be 6 stories above ground where no one will ever use it? Will it just be not allowed by the various stakeholders required to get the construction done (i.e. CN) and Oxford will be like 'oh well too bad' but still build a crappy generic convention centre and a new casino?

Until there are more details, everyone on this thread could just be cheering for a generic box convention centre, some office/condo towers (with no heights specified, nor any actual designs other than 'illustrative purposes only'), and of course a mega casino (which in this rendering is wal-mart shaped) run by a mega corporation which will suck a few billion $$s per year away from Toronto into some billionaire's pocket in the USA. Yes I want Sheldon Adelson to take our money for some generic buildings... right.