Oxford unveils $3-billion casino, convention centre proposal for downtown Toronto

[waldenbg]

Originally Posted by Epi

Just because a big name is involved does not guarantee it's going to be good.

Yeah, but it greatly improves the odds.

If we're going to replace the convention centre, it would be nice to have a nice looking iconic convention centre, instead of another generic looking box. If we're going to have a big hotel, it would be nice to get some details or else maybe we're going to be getting a 1000-bed Howard Johnson.

Generally new hotels are nice. I would bet this be a luxury hotel. There is no way they would build a Ho-Jo or Holiday Inn.

Even worse, while the articles state that they want the 'province' to run the casino, what's to say that they don't actually want something like Sands to be building it? Casinos are massively profitable enterprises, the house always wins. If we let something like Sands/MGM/Wynn build a casino in downtown, we're more or less giving them license to print money, and basically completely destroying any revenue that all the other casinos in the GTA make. Fat chance that Casino Rama or Casino Niagara or even the Great White Heron casino makes any money now!

Casino Rama may not make much money, but I don't think Niagara is going anywhere. And we should not limit our development because of smaller casinos elsewhere in the country. This will provide more jobs than those do. Also, a casino is coming to the GTA no matter what, so we are past the Rama/Niagara debate.

As well how feasible is this park over the tracks going to be? I mean obviously we all want to see it, our own mini Shinjuku station here in Toronto. But will this park be 6 stories above ground where no one will ever use it? Will it just be not allowed by the various stakeholders required to get the construction done (i.e. CN) and Oxford will be like 'oh well too bad' but still build a crappy generic convention centre and a new casino?

I'm sure Oxford has put a lot of thought into the different aspects of this.

This is an amazing time for Toronto! Exciting things!

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Will the Casino be open 24/7?

I think a lot of social problems can be avoided if the Casino closes at 12am on weekdays and 2am on weekends.

That's like banning people from wearing skimpy clothing because there are rapists out there. It's completely ass backwards! This better be 24/7. Are we supposed to child proof our whole city because there are some idiots who live here? What's next, limiting patrons to 1 drink every 3 hours.

[Toronto2008]

Originally Posted by Epi

Until there are more details, everyone on this thread could just be cheering for a generic box convention centre, some office/condo towers (with no heights specified, nor any actual designs other than 'illustrative purposes only'), and of course a mega casino (which in this rendering is wal-mart shaped) run by a mega corporation which will suck a few billion $$s per year away from Toronto into some billionaire's pocket in the USA. Yes I want Sheldon Adelson to take our money for some generic buildings... right.

I agree, we need more details. I am most excited about this park over the rail tracks but I need to hear from Metrolinx and CN/CP rail that it's feasible.

And there's nothing wrong with somebody profiting from a casino. This is a capitalist society, we all make choices as to where our dollars go. Some people make poor choices like blowing rent money on poker. Doesn't matter if it's in a basement or a casino, these things do happen.

Having city government tell us that gambling is bad and therefore it's banned does not sit well with me. Just like with smoking and drinking, Let the people decide.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

And the heavily designed one, as has been pointed out, appears to have been lifted directly from a previous project.

But we don't live in Seoul. Nothing like these exists in Toronto so they're exactly what we need. It's about time we moved beyond the 'International Style' in this city. We've done it to death and we're desperately in need of some visual interest in the skyscrapers we build. 'Less is more' had a 60 year run, but I'm glad we're starting to view architecture the same way we view art. Embellishment and design are not bad words.

'Heavily designed'? Anything is going to look heavily designed next to the stripped down utilitarianism we've adhered to the last 4 generations.

[waldenbg]

Some people are treating it as if we build a casino in Toronto, all of the citizens will become compulsive gamblers. The people who have gambling problems can gamble online, drive an hour to Niagara/Rama and gamble, gamble at the Ex during the summer, or gamble illegally. Building a casino downtown will give the compulsive gamblers easier access, but it will also give everyone else the chance to have a fun play every once and a while. Most people are responsible.

It is up to the person what they spend, and no one is making anyone gamble anything. In fact, the shopping, entertainment and park space here would be used by everyone, not just gamblers.

Should we ban the lottery? That is essentially gambling.

Even in looking at the negatives, those will be brought upon the GTA regardless of it being downtown or not and affect the whole region. Why don't we get the most out of this?

It seems like a great project, and I'm excited to see what the other casino proposals look like.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by isaidso

But we don't live in Seoul. Nothing like these exists in Toronto so they're exactly what we need. It's about time we moved beyond the 'International Style' in this city. We've done it to death and we're desperately in need of some visual interest in the skyscrapers we build. 'Less is more' had a 60 year run, but I'm glad we're starting to view architecture the same way we view art. Embellishment and design are not bad words.

'Heavily designed'? Anything is going to look heavily designed next to the stripped down utilitarianism we've adhered to the last 4 generations.

Didn't say it wasn't what we need. Just said I wish it would look a bit more unique, that's all. I know Foster is cranking out a LOT of projects around the world and don't expect every single one of them to be unique, though. I like the look of it and it would please a lot of people as well as look cool on the skyline.

[Epi]

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

And there's nothing wrong with somebody profiting from a casino. This is a capitalist society, we all make choices as to where our dollars go. Some people make poor choices like blowing rent money on poker. Doesn't matter if it's in a basement or a casino, these things do happen.

I have nothing against gambling, heck I do my fare share of it. What I don't want is some US mega-corporation essentially having a gambling monopoly in the city.

If you build a casino in downtown Toronto, the actual effect will be to completely destroy the revenues of casinos owned by the province all around the GTA, and the native owned Casino Rama. The taxes that we will place upon said casino will be nothing compared to the revenue lost by having an outside company run this. If the government wants to open more casinos to increase provincial coffers, it's a bad way to do it.

As well, anyone who thinks that this will 'increase tourism' is deluded. Almost every major city around already has a casino or one nearby. All this will do is just let local gamblers not have to drive too far to gamble. That's why places like Atlantic City are doing so poorly because why would anyone go specifically there to gamble when they can gamble locally? Very few tourists will be coming to gamble, that's more or less guaranteed.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Didn't say it wasn't what we need. Just said I wish it would look a bit more unique, that's all.

It's in Toronto. The fact that it isn't a solid box means it is unique by default! And as far as Foster designs go, those office/condos are more attractive than the Bow. They're more like the Hearst Tower in New York, which is one of the most elegant skyscrapers in a city with thousands of skyscrapers.

The hotels aren't that bad, either. Outside of Absolute World in Missisauga, how many round towers are there in the GTA? I think even Winnipeg has more round high rises than Toronto!

[monkeyronin]

Originally Posted by vid

Outside of Absolute World in Missisauga, how many round towers are there in the GTA? I think even Winnipeg has more round high rises than Toronto!

There are a bunch right beside these...

[waldenbg]

Originally Posted by Epi

I have nothing against gambling, heck I do my fare share of it. What I don't want is some US mega-corporation essentially having a gambling monopoly in the city.

If you build a casino in downtown Toronto, the actual effect will be to completely destroy the revenues of casinos owned by the province all around the GTA, and the native owned Casino Rama. The taxes that we will place upon said casino will be nothing compared to the revenue lost by having an outside company run this. If the government wants to open more casinos to increase provincial coffers, it's a bad way to do it.

As well, anyone who thinks that this will 'increase tourism' is deluded. Almost every major city around already has a casino or one nearby. All this will do is just let local gamblers not have to drive too far to gamble. That's why places like Atlantic City are doing so poorly because why would anyone go specifically there to gamble when they can gamble locally? Very few tourists will be coming to gamble, that's more or less guaranteed.

Firstly, there is a difference between having a US operator run the casino and having one own it.

Casino Rama is a small development compared to this. This proposal would make much more money and provide many more jobs.

Lets take a look at the Crown Casino in Melbourne. Similar to this developments in many respects, it was built at a cost of $2 billion. It is visited by up to 16 million people each year and over 40,000 per day.

- Total Casino Tax - over $3 Billion (approx)
- Annual Crown Levy - $5 Million (approx)
- State’s largest single-site, private sector employer with over 6,500 employees, over 3,300 contractors and over $350 Million annual payroll
- Support for local businesses, with over $125 Million in annual expenditure with suppliers of goods and services

It is run by a company rather than the government.

I disagree with you in saying this will not help tourism. Other than simply expanding what we have to offer, it also expands our convention centre and provides large hotels. Tourists goto the Eaton Centre. This will have shopping almost the same size, hotels, entertainment, and more.

Tourists will not just come for a casino, they will come for the whole complex. However, I would bet that this casino be much nicer than Rama and Niagara, matching Vegas quality perhaps.



I think it will benefit the whole area. It will connect the Rogers Centre/CN Tower/Aquarium/Roundhouse Museum with the rest of the city via hotel, shopping, entertainment and parkland.

This whole area would become a tourism centre.

[Toronto2008]

Originally Posted by Epi

I have nothing against gambling, heck I do my fare share of it. What I don't want is some US mega-corporation essentially having a gambling monopoly in the city.

If you build a casino in downtown Toronto, the actual effect will be to completely destroy the revenues of casinos owned by the province all around the GTA, and the native owned Casino Rama. The taxes that we will place upon said casino will be nothing compared to the revenue lost by having an outside company run this. If the government wants to open more casinos to increase provincial coffers, it's a bad way to do it.

As well, anyone who thinks that this will 'increase tourism' is deluded. Almost every major city around already has a casino or one nearby. All this will do is just let local gamblers not have to drive too far to gamble. That's why places like Atlantic City are doing so poorly because why would anyone go specifically there to gamble when they can gamble locally? Very few tourists will be coming to gamble, that's more or less guaranteed.

Who the hell cares about more tourists if the city can net $100-200 million a year from this thing? GTA gamblers go to Niagara/Detroit/Rama to gamble, who do you think pays for their social services here at home? I'm an accountant -- I think about these things.

Quite frankly, I would prefer Americans to run the TO casino (they have a LOT more experience/clout than the provincial government in US, China etc) as long as the 416, not Queens Park, can get a sizable % of its income not unlike an perpetuity.

[vid]

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

There are a bunch right beside these...

Well then they'll fit in!!

*doesn't live in Toronto and didn't fastidiously study the rendering. Oh Henry remains the last chocolate bar people typically eat out of their Halloween bag.*

[Diesel_Power]

Niagara Falls must hate this proposal. This will gobble up all those buses full of Chinese tourists.

I wonder if this proposal would help to bring more people to Jays games.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by vid

It's in Toronto. The fact that it isn't a solid box means it is unique by default! And as far as Foster designs go, those office/condos are more attractive than the Bow. They're more like the Hearst Tower in New York, which is one of the most elegant skyscrapers in a city with thousands of skyscrapers.

The hotels aren't that bad, either. Outside of Absolute World in Missisauga, how many round towers are there in the GTA? I think even Winnipeg has more round high rises than Toronto!

You really need to come and visit Toronto and see it with your own eyes if you have convinced yourself it is all solid boxes. Mind you, there are loads of people who have actually moved here and convinced themselves of the same thing. It all boils down to the fact that people see only what they want to see.
Again, I am not entirely sure why everyone feels the need to tell me I am wrong and that Toronto should get this project with the Foster tower. For the record I am in favour of it; I am merely pointing out that to the naked eye it appears to be the same as some of his past towers; don't shoot the messenger! I am fully aware that there is no other tower currently like this in Toronto.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Epi

Casinos are massively profitable enterprises...

Not always or consistently. One of the reasons casinos are expanding business is because their primary playing grounds (like Vegas and Atlantic City) have not been quite so profitable recently. MGM Resorts has had a few negative quarters now overall.

New territory is new money. After ~20 years the smaller regional casinos seem to stop performing well.


I'm not in favour of a Casino in Toronto but downtown is the best place for it. If we get tourists, they can just walk out the front-door and visit the city. A casino in the middle of nowhere (Exhibition place) will make it much more difficult to get casino visitors to do things which are not on the MGM grounds.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

You really need to come and visit Toronto

20 months away still. I kept thinking World Pride was 2013 but it is 2014, so 2013 is my trip to Vancouver instead. If I make a short wekend trip to another city this year it'll be Chicago instead. We just got a direct flight but I don't think it will last long, wanna take advantage of that. Porter isn't going anywhere, United might.

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

...the Foster tower. For the record I am in favour of it; I am merely pointing out that to the naked eye it appears to be the same as some of his past towers

Yes, most Foster buildings look the same. That blue glass and grey cross bracing is his trademark. All of his skyscrapers are going to be like that.

I can tell already that these towers will look better than the Bow in Calgary (which from some angles practically blocks out the entire skyline of that city) so I wouldn't complain about them!

[vid]

Originally Posted by miaolnef

I think this is also a good.

It is settled then. This is a good.

[waldenbg]

From MetroMan on UT:

A little bit of interesting info from my friends at the to-be-unamed firm I spoke to on Friday: the park is very much in flux and they agree that this is comparable to Millenium Park in Chicago. If not in size, it is in concept. Millennium Park was built by decking over an active rail corridor and a former parking lot. The idea is starting off as a simple park decking over the rail corridor but if allowed to proceed, the idea will develop. The design of the park is just a place holder. If this goes forward, it's going to be designed by Foster. Now imagine our own Foster designed "Pritzker Pavillion" at the base of the CN Tower and outside the SkyDome. Now that is daydreamworthy.

This really could be something great. I think people are overreacting with the casino aspect. People who want to gamble are going to do it anyway, and having a casino in our city will not make everyone a gambling addict. The benefits of this project would be great!

[vid]

Thunder Bay hasn't suffered because of the casino, and the area around it is pretty decent. It's turned into our entertainment district.

The biggest drawback to our casino is that the city only gets 5% of its revenue.

[waldenbg]

Originally Posted by vid

Thunder Bay hasn't suffered because of the casino, and the area around it is pretty decent. It's turned into our entertainment district.

The biggest drawback to our casino is that the city only gets 5% of its revenue.

5% of the revenue...
+ taxes
+ tourist dollars spent outside of the casino on other attractions
+ opportunity for larger conventions
+ a new park
+ office space
ect...

The way I see it, we either get a boring old casino in a suburb or a resort destination in the city.

Something of this scale can't be compared to any other casino in Canada, and it certainly won't destroy our city!

Its the difference between this:



image hosted on flickr


and this: