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Old April 27th, 2009, 09:31 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Well there is no a 'must' to build rail-system in big cities.
There are plenty of over million metropoles that get by without it, building BRT. The best example would be here probably Bogota.
Well the population increase in Bogota is much less than the population increase in Chinese cities...in China, people are flocking to cities...and you have to plan for the future and plan for a Xiamen with 10 million people because in about 10 years or less, Xiamen will def have that many people so it's better to build rail services if ur going to spend so much money to build elevated corridors.
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Old April 27th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
It's obvious that it's very smart idea. To have both - good and modern transport system and jobs.
I wish every city had such ideas. Simply and effective.
Be careful what you wish for.

Here in Canada huge amounts of tax money has been thrown at expensive and inferior rail and bus technology...all in the name of making made-in-Canada technology.
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Old April 28th, 2009, 02:10 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Well there is no a 'must' to build rail-system in big cities.
There are plenty of over million metropoles that get by without it, building BRT. The best example would be here probably Bogota.
Yeah, because Bogota is such an incredibly well developed city, compared to say Paris, London, New York or Berlin. And its public transport system carries so many more passengers than those of the cities named before. Right? Not.
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Old April 28th, 2009, 12:25 PM   #64
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Please don't even start with: "BRT is for poor countries" because its rubish talking.
Bogota (and other cities) shows that it's possible to move millions of ppl using bus-system, if it's well thought. It says that there are ways of solving problems easier, faster, cheaper.
It's not waste of money, it's probably best invested money ever, coz it makes ppls' life better fast. And it's not the thing of developing countries, coz u have plenty of examples in the 'richest' ones that build BRT.
And why do they do such things? Coz it's more cost effective, and can be built faster.
Of course we all wish that every big city in this beautiful world had an underground metro. But if there is a system that was built fast and serves citizens- even without rails - there is nothing to complain.
The same here for Xiamen. They chose BRT - and that's great.
(In spite of Xiamen, Bogota and all those poor and hated by some ppl cities: as far as i know the first elevated fast-bus-line serves the "cool, rich" Nagoya since many years).

We can discuss here the pros and contras of BRT but the level of delevopment or 'richness' of the county isn't an argument at all.
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Old April 28th, 2009, 10:38 PM   #65
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He is not saying that BRT is for poor countries.

He was saying that Paris, London, and other cities around the world (including developing cities like Delhi, Beijing, etc) which have a huge population have served transportation through rail service becuase it is faster and moves more people per hour than BRT.

There are no large cities (10 million plus population) which serve their people with only BRT. This is because when you have sooo many people who need to get places, the BRT just doesn't have the capacity for it.

Xiamen will become a large city in the near future. Hence, it would have made sense for the government to have put a metro on these elevated corridors instead of a bus...the cost would have been pretty much the same, but the capacity would have been much better.
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Old April 29th, 2009, 01:03 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
Well China is the world's largest country and more and more people are moving to cities like Xiamen...

And if they really didnt need to transport that many people, they could always cut the number of bogies that the metro train had...

You can always cut the bogies in a metro train if you need to lessen capacity, but you cant keep adding segments to a bus to increase capacity for future needs.
Completely untrue. To add or subtract units from a multiple unit metro requires a complete reprogram of its control systems. This is a very complicate process that requires the trains to be taken offline to complete.

On the other hand, you can't add segment to busses, but you can buy bigger busses and in more quantity. With a BRT system like Xiamens, you can fit a lot of busses on it before it reaches capacity; at which point the city will beable to justify to everyone interested to convert the busways to a rapid-rail transit.
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Old April 29th, 2009, 05:05 AM   #67
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I highly disagree with you. Here in LA, they add coaches to metro trains when it's peak hour and take them out when it's non-peak hours. Many other cities do the same thing.

Adding and subtracting coaches from a metro train is much simpler than having to buy bigger buses and smaller buses. Plus the capacity of trains is much more and they're safer and faster. (Safer because there's a higher likelihood that a bus can hit the walls of the road than a train because a train runs on rails).

In the end, if you look at major metropolises (10 million plus people) that are considered to be good in transportation terms, you will find that none of them rely on BRT as their own transit system. Almost all of them have metros as their prime transit option.
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Old April 29th, 2009, 10:00 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
...In the end, if you look at major metropolises (10 million plus people) that are considered to be good in transportation terms, you will find that none of them rely on BRT as their own transit system. Almost all of them have metros as their prime transit option.
Well, not really...
Jakarta is in 12 largest cities in the world and has only BRT - no metros.

among the previous 11 cities - not all have metro, and 5 other have BRT lines (Sao Paolo, Delhi, Mexico, Beijing, Istanbul). It all means, BRT is just an alternative. In some of the largest cities it's the core transport in other ones more like auxiliary mean of urban transportation cooperating with metro systems.

But let's talk more bout Xiamen BRT
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Old April 30th, 2009, 12:41 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
I highly disagree with you. Here in LA, they add coaches to metro trains when it's peak hour and take them out when it's non-peak hours. Many other cities do the same thing.

Adding and subtracting coaches from a metro train is much simpler than having to buy bigger buses and smaller buses. Plus the capacity of trains is much more and they're safer and faster. (Safer because there's a higher likelihood that a bus can hit the walls of the road than a train because a train runs on rails).

In the end, if you look at major metropolises (10 million plus people) that are considered to be good in transportation terms, you will find that none of them rely on BRT as their own transit system. Almost all of them have metros as their prime transit option.
Which metros and what stock do they use. And what other cities do the same.

I can tell you which cities that is not able to do what you're claiming to be common practice. Toronto, Vancover, and all of the Chinese ones. And China has some of the newest and most advanced networks in the world.
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Last edited by UD2; April 30th, 2009 at 12:56 AM.
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Old April 30th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
I highly disagree with you. Here in LA, they add coaches to metro trains when it's peak hour and take them out when it's non-peak hours. Many other cities do the same thing.

Adding and subtracting coaches from a metro train is much simpler than having to buy bigger buses and smaller buses. Plus the capacity of trains is much more and they're safer and faster. (Safer because there's a higher likelihood that a bus can hit the walls of the road than a train because a train runs on rails).

In the end, if you look at major metropolises (10 million plus people) that are considered to be good in transportation terms, you will find that none of them rely on BRT as their own transit system. Almost all of them have metros as their prime transit option.
I just realized that you might be talking about LA's Light Rail Tram system. And if you are, then this conversation is over because we're not talking about the same thing.

And i believe just about everyone else on this forum is talking about a "heavy rail" subway like system when they say Metro, rather than light rail trams.

As for the implication to Xiamen. If the city is going to install rails onto the elevated busways, I'm sure they'll run "heavy rail" trains on the system and not trams.

And no. Adding entire tram units onto existing ones is not easier than buying bigger and newer busses. Because those additional tram units will have to be purchased as well. Adding in the higher cost of tram units and the cost to construct and maintain the tracks, overhang and more expansive maintinance failities needed for these veicles, the cost of tram in Xiamen is significantly higher than the cost of running more busses.

Until the demand for the system grow to the point where a full fledged heavy rail metro system is justified, this bus system is the right solution for the city. And the planners did a great job constructing metro capable raised pathways in prep for this event.
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Old April 30th, 2009, 06:55 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Well, not really...
Jakarta is in 12 largest cities in the world and has only BRT - no metros.

among the previous 11 cities - not all have metro, and 5 other have BRT lines (Sao Paolo, Delhi, Mexico, Beijing, Istanbul). It all means, BRT is just an alternative. In some of the largest cities it's the core transport in other ones more like auxiliary mean of urban transportation cooperating with metro systems.
Jakarta is not considered to have a good transit system...and Sao Paolo, Delhi, Mexico, Beijing, & Istanbul all do have BRT but these are not the main mode of transit.. If you look at these cities, you'll find that ALL of them have more passengers taking Metro than BRT, meaning that BRT is not the main system in their cities.

Here is what I said "In the end, if you look at major metropolises (10 million plus people) that are considered to be good in transportation terms, you will find that none of them rely on BRT as their only transit system."

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
Which metros and what stock do they use. And what other cities do the same.

I can tell you which cities that is not able to do what you're claiming to be common practice. Toronto, Vancover, and all of the Chinese ones. And China has some of the newest and most advanced networks in the world.
Umm...well most of the world's largest cities have metros...and only a few have BRTs and even the ones which have BRTs dont have them as the only transit system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
I just realized that you might be talking about LA's Light Rail Tram system. And if you are, then this conversation is over because we're not talking about the same thing.
I was talking about the Red Line in LA which is a heavy rail line....during peak hours they have more coaches than in non-peak hours...you can add coaches to a train but you cant do that with buses...plus trains are wayy faster and safer.
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Old April 30th, 2009, 07:43 AM   #72
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Well, I see another new experiment for public transportation in a city of this country. It seems like every city in China has something unique. It might not be efficient as light rail system, but sure it will create more jobs for local people. I guess this is a part of the government economic stimulate program in action.
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Old April 30th, 2009, 06:01 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Well, not really...
Jakarta is in 12 largest cities in the world and has only BRT - no metros.

among the previous 11 cities - not all have metro, and 5 other have BRT lines (Sao Paolo, Delhi, Mexico, Beijing, Istanbul). It all means, BRT is just an alternative. In some of the largest cities it's the core transport in other ones more like auxiliary mean of urban transportation cooperating with metro systems.

But let's talk more bout Xiamen BRT
You would have a point if Jakarta has a half decent transportation system. But it doesn't. Reality is that Jakarta has some of the worst traffic I've been in, and it is consistently bad.
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Old April 30th, 2009, 07:56 PM   #74
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Exactly!

Jakarta should also build a metro system cuz the BRT just ain't workin!
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Old April 30th, 2009, 11:49 PM   #75
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Maybe they should just learn better from Bogota, Curitiba or Xiamen?
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Old May 1st, 2009, 01:35 AM   #76
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In all Middle European Metros that I know you can run trains in multiple traction. In Vienna for example all Metro trains (except for the new V train) consist of seperate units that are added together to form either a long (Langzug) or short train (Kurzzug). Of course you can't go to infinite length - for technical reasons, but mostly because of the plattform length.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 06:38 AM   #77
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Maybe they should just learn better from Bogota, Curitiba or Xiamen?
No...BRT does not work well as the only transit option for big cities like Jakarta.

Big cities need trains as their primary transit system and brt can supplement it.

That's why they should have build trains on these elevated corridors in Xiamen becuase pretty soon Xiamen will become huge and BRT just doesnt have that capacity!
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Old May 1st, 2009, 02:28 PM   #78
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No...BRT does not work well as the only transit option for big cities like Jakarta.
Of course BRT works great if it's good organized (vide: Bogota, Curitiba..)
and of course a train service can work bad if it's bad organized.

Quote:
Big cities need trains as their primary transit system and brt can supplement it.
Who said so? As the examples abouve show busses can manage the same good work.

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Old May 2nd, 2009, 02:06 AM   #79
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Bogota and Curitiba are not big cities!!! Curitiba has barely 2 million people and Bogota has 6 million people...compare that to 18 million to 10 million of big cities.

Also, most large cities (10 million plus ppl) are extremely cramped and have very dense areas and are usually not planned. Hence it's really hard to add two extra lanes for buses. An underground metro works much better.


Can you find me a city over 10 million people which uses only BRT and is considered to have a great transportation system?
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 01:28 PM   #80
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Who cares about "over 10mln cities"?
Why r u trying to force thes 10mln? 2 or 6mln are big cities as well.
Besides BRT is expanding, it's still 'new idea'. Wait few years and u will see BRT as main transportation in ur 'over-10' cities (Lagos is constructing BRT and with its ca. 10mln it's pretty big, isnt, it? Johanesburg another 6-7mln is getting right now it's first BRT)
The problem to find such city that fits to ur wishes is, that they already have metros, but if the BRT idea were known few years back - i bet some of them would have had more BRt than metros nowadays.
But it doesnt matter now. The important thing is, that some open-minded ppl see the chance for their cities to improve urban transport in a fast and cost effective way, which is good for the citizens.
The Bogota BRt can carry up to 24.000 passangers per direction per hour! This makes it a powerful alternative for trams, and fits between normal buses and metro , allowing to spare some nice amount of money (instead of building costly trams), so a well organized city can make it on a new way. If Xiamen passanger flows will rich the BRT limits, tehy can convert it to real heavy metro, but maybe there will be no need, so they can save their money and invest it otherwise to make the live better for citizens. sounds logical, doesnt it?
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