Elections 2013

[matrix2020]

elab, don't you get it?
Who exactly represents working class in Israel?
Electricity company workers?
Or maybe Train workers?
Or maybe you meant the freeloaders like the famous "Viki Knafo" ?
It is not possible to force people to become altruists.
I can tell you for myself.
I am a freelancer and I do everything in my power to pay as little taxes as I can.
You know why?
Because I don't want to finance the "working class" and I don't want to finance the Viki Knafo's. I simply don't and there is nothing on Earth that can force me.
If Socialist Government ever comes to power I will either try to evade taxes that they create or simply leave the country.Trust me I will be just fine in any western country with my fluent English and knowledge of Computer Security.
It is the Viki Knafo who should be worried
Don't feel offended, but I bring way more to the society then the so called "working class" which is a chimera invented by the Left.

Why on earth should I finance this so called "Social Justice"?
You really think that me and others like me will silently agree and just pay more?
Take a look at the UK and France.
All their rich are leaving their countries because they don't want to pay the new taxes.

[yerushalmi]

Originally Posted by elab

דברים דומים כבר שמענו על אריק שרון בזמנו...

אכן נכווינו, אז מה עושים ?
אני מסתכל על ערכים מעשים בשטח וקו ברור, אז בנט מייצג את הטוב ביותר
אם יש מישהו שהכי ראוי לתת בו אמון אז הוא הראוי
אני במיוחד מעריך את העובדה שהוא לא אופורטוניסט שלא עסק בפעילות ציבורית לפני הבחירות אלא מגיע עם רקורד בעשייה
ונסיון בלשכת רה"מ. ומצד שני הוא לא רק עסק בפוליטיקה או פטפוט למקרופון אלא הוא עם נסיון בניהול חברה ואחרי הצלחה אמיתית בתחום העסקים
זה שילוב מצוין, מזכיר לי קצת את ניר ברקת. אני בעד

[Ynhockey]

Pi*r^2, many of the things you right are simply not true. I will try answer at least some of the main points (although Matrix and Yerushalmi already answered some):

גדעון סער הרס את מערכת החינוך עם חוקים גזעניים ו"אופק חדש" שמנצלת את המורים אפילו עוד יותר ממה שנוצלו קודם. כל הכבוד לו.
השר שלום אכן הצליח לפני קודמו בתפקיד.... רק תזכיר לי מי היה השר הקודם ב"פיתוח הנגב והגליל"... הוא קיבל תפקיד שלא היה צריך להיות קיים בכלל. תפקיד שהיה צריך להיות מובן מאילו בכל האספקטים של שרים אחרים.
ארדן היה גרוע בתפקידו. כמו קודמו וכמו כל שר אחר שהחזיק בתיק "איכות הסביבה".
שרת הספורט... אחד התפקידים החשובים בכנסת, ללא ספק, הוכיחה באולימפיאדה האחרונה מה באמת חשוב בארץ. כדורגל...
וכץ.... או כץ. רק עליו אני יכול לכתוב פוסט שלם כמה הוא שר גרוע.
שכחת את שטייניץ אגב שגם עליו לא חסר מה להגיד.
וכמובן, הדג מסריח מהראש... אין כמו ביבי.

I really don't know if you're been following politics recently, but it seems that the above stems from a lack of reading about and following this government's actions. The media (especially if you choose to read Haaretz and Yediot) likes to downplay this government's achievements and praise the left, but the fact is, this government, and especially the ministers you mentioned, accomplished things that no leftist government, and sometimes no government, ever did. I will address just some of the things:

Gideon Sa'ar:
I personally don't think Sa'ar is the best education minister ever, but for much of his tenure he was busy undoing the damage that Yuli Tamir did, and I will remind you that Tamir is from the left-wing Labor Party, not Kadima which you call non-leftist.

For example, while Tamir oversaw the firing of many teachers mostly based on seniority (younger and better teachers were fired, while older ones who were strong in the union stayed), Sa'ar finally passed reforms in compensation for teachers, and now there's at least some chance that better teachers will make more money and poor teachers will have to go.

Sa'ar also reversed Tamir's extreme-left tendencies, like forcing schools to teach the "Nakba". Instead, Sa'ar helped insert a curriculum that teaches our history and values to the young generation. You might call this politicizing, but I'd rather have our children learning our history and values than those of our enemies.

Finally, while technological advances in education boomed during Tamir's term, she did absolutely nothing to improve technology in schools (which is one aspect where we're decades behind Europe and North America). Sa'ar on the other hand instituted several programs to try to catch up to our friends overseas.

Silvan Shalom:
I admit that I haven't heard much from Shalom during his tenure, but this is the same thing that happened with all previous Negev and Galilee development ministers. What Shalom has done, which his predecessor hasn't, was to promote education and healthcare in the periphery (especially in the north)—much better than the nothing that Peres and Edri did. I will also remind you that while Peres was in Kadima at the time of his tenure, he was historically aligned with Labor, a left-wing party. I have enormous respect for Peres, but no one could seriously call his centrist.

Gilad Erdan:
I hope you're not serious in your accusations. Erdan has been an excellent Environmental Protection Minister. Not only likely the best one ever, but also someone who finally did something for the environment.

Erdan is overseeing several major river cleanup projects, as well as protecting waterways and injecting water back into them (in the case of the Jordan). He also fined polluting factories, enforced stronger regulation, introduced new regulation, and dramatically increased the transparency for polluting enterprises.

Erdan also helped the environmentalists on the important shoreline protection law, instituted programs to dramatically increase recycling (we caught up to Western Europe in bottle recycling in case you didn't know), and there's this other well-known program for replacing old refrigerators and air conditioners. Erdan also brought our emission standards for vehicles, appliances, etc. closer to the strict European ones.

Limor Livnat:
Here we might agree that she wasn't a good minister, but the lack of medals were not her fault, but long-term sick sports management in Israel. I was hoping she'd institute reforms, but she didn't. To be fair though, what has Majadele done for sports and culture? I don't remember even one positive thing. I will again remind you that Majadele came from the Labor party and not Kadima.

Israel Katz:
Here again there is great ignorance about the various accomplishments of Katz as transportation minister, as well as how bad Mofaz was in this post. I will list some of the amazing things Katz did that not only Mofaz, but none of the ministers in the last couple decades, managed to do. In fact, Mofaz froze all the important transportation projects in the country to help Olmert cover the fiscal hole that the Second Lebanon War created (maybe more on that later)

So here are the projects Katz unfroze or initiated:
* High-speed railway to Jerusalem (A1)
* Railway to Karmiel
* Development Towns railway (Sderot, Netivot, Ofakim)
* Jezreel valley railway (Afula, Beit Shean)
* Tel Aviv Light Rail (nationalized)
* Bus reform in Gush Dan (it was controversial, but you can't argue with the necessity of the 90-minute transfer tickets, which Mofaz delayed)
* Planning for the railway to Eilat
* Highway 531
* Highway 1 expansion
* Converting a number of northern roads to freeways or partial freeways, like 75, 77, etc.

And there are many smaller ones which were stalled but Katz promoted. It's ridiculous to call him a bad transportation minister. There are a few things he should've done, but didn't (public transport on Shabat, metropolitan transport authorities, more transparency in bus company ratings, etc.), but this is nothing compared to what he did do.

Yuval Steinitz:
While I believe Bibi and Fischer were the main leaders here, Steinitz passed 2-year budgets which stabilized the economy and allowed more spending on important multi-year programs. He also passed the Sheshinsky recommendations. Finally, he focused on the free market and helped stabilize the economy which is growing despite the collapse of several European economies, the Egyptian gas cut, and the American economic crisis.

Let me finally address your criticism about Israel's current foreign policy:

השמאל שרף את מעמדה הבין-לאומי של ישראל?????????????? בוא ואספר לך עם אילו מדינות ליברמן חיזק את הקשר: פנמה. בוא ואספר לך עם אילו מדינות ליברמן הרס את הקשר: ארה"ב, בריטניה, רוסיה, סין, צרפת, גרמניה, שבדיה, נורבגיה, ואל נא נשכח את ידידותינו במזה"ת - טורקיה וירדן.

Again I think you've been grossly mislead. I don't think Lieberman is the best foreign minister, but he certainly did not ruin our relations with anyone. We have to stop thinking that we are the only ones at fault for our foreign relations. The relations with Obama and Turkey were going down no matter who was foreign minister.

Regarding those other countries: Lieberman actually significantly strengthened our ties with Russia and China, contrary to what you write. Trade with these countries is booming, and it's helping us cope with the economic crisis. As I said before, Lieberman also fostered ties with minor developing nations, some of which Barak (again, not from Kadima) openly insulted for no reason.

Relations with Germany and the UK are just fine (they never liked settlements, but trade ties are doing well and public opinion in these countries can't go any lower than during the Second Lebanon War and Cast Lead, which were led by Peretz and Barak, both from Labor and not Kadima, I will again remind you), in France a left-wing president was elected which is not Lieberman's fault (and to be fair, ties with France as fine too). And nobody cares about Sweden and Norway. Aside from Russia and China, Lieberman strengthened ties with India, South Korea, Poland, Ukraine and other potentially major partners. We need to stop depending on collapsing European economies and diversify.

[elab]

matrix2020,

Of course, let all them die because they are "untermenschen" that unable to make business, haven't fluent English and computer skills.. Damn ballast - all of them. Especially those old and ill.
If something will destroy this country - it will be such a selfishness.

[Ynhockey]

Elab:

Matrix already said much of what I wanted, but I will reiterate his points: in order to finance "social justice" you need to raise taxes significantly. On whom? On the middle class. Please like (probably) most of this forum's members including myself.

Let's take a person who makes an average salary (NIS 9,000/month) and a median salary (NIS 6,500/month). Today for the first salary you'll pay just over NIS 1,000 in taxes (including income, health, insurance, everything) and for the second one you'll pay about NIS 500 in taxes. I didn't make precise calculations but this is about what I paid having made both salaries at least one month in the last 5 years.

Now imagine Yehimovich's program, which seems to be like European welfare states. On those models you'd pay about NIS 3,000–3,500 on the first salary and about NIS 1,000–1,500 on the second. Do you want to be left with NIS 6,000 after finding a decent NIS 9,000 job?

Personally I haven't seen a doctor in years, don't have children, and pay for a full higher education (not in a subsidized university). Admittedly I use public transport but this actually does benefit society a little. Why should I give a third or more of my salary to subsidize people who get more government benefits than they pay taxes? In today's technological world and thriving economy, the only people who can't find work (in the long term) are the very old (and some disabled, not all), and those who don't want to find work. I don't mind having my taxes going to old people, but do mind if they go to those who don't want to to work. There is no excuse for not working, and if you do work, you shouldn't have to fork out half your cash to the bottomless pit of "social justice".

Today I work in the service sector and we mostly provide various services to small businesses. I know my clients fairly well and know that many of them would shut down or severely downsize under Yehimovich's plan. That's thousands more unemployed, who will then just get more and more benefits, which will cause more to go out of work and they'll get more benefits, until the economy collapses or everyone pays 40%+ in taxes (Norway). No thank you.

P.S. While it's addressed to Matrix and not me, the Nazi comparison is out of place and does not add to this discussion. This is exactly the kind of rhetoric that drives good people away from politics and invites those who should never get there.

[flsh]

I know I'm not going to vote for the Labour party. Or anyone who is willing to grow a deficit.

Loaning money like the way she wants to is theft. It is theft from the younger people who will be the ones to repay it. It's theft from people who still don't work but will and will realize that the biggest money spender in the budget are old loans and interest. We need to stop getting into a deficit, not expend it.

I'm going to vote Merez or Ale Yarok. All the big parties are full of opportunists that only care about some crazy ideas like a "whole Israel" or hyper socialism that we can't afford or getting their name in the newspapers. I might as well get legal weed out of it :\

[Ynhockey]

It's theft from people who still don't work but will and will realize that the biggest money spender in the budget are old loans and interest.

Good point, I completely forgot about this. The debt+interest payment right now is what, NIS 70 billion/year? I don't remember the exact figure, but I think it's double our education budget. Let's stop the excessive borrowing.

I might as well get legal weed out of it :\

You might be interested to know :
http://www.xn--4dbcyzi5a.com/%D7%A7%...0%D7%91%D7%99/

[elab]

Ynhockey,
You don't need to describe me all this since there is nothing to do with Yakhimovitch program.
There are simply no plans to rise taxes for middle class.
At least, read this review :
http://www.themarker.com/news/politics/1.1878912
However, I have questions about some of financial sources in her program.

[matrix2020]

elab, say what you will but you won't get any money out of me with this kind of rhetoric.
If there is someone who needs help, he can ask and I will help, but noway I will give any money to somebody who has the Chutzpah to demand the money from me claiming that I stole it from the poor and somehow I "owe" it to them.
This goes for the Union thugs, freeloaders like Viki Knafo who think that the whole world owes her just because she decided not to use protection and somehow it became my fault or the "oppressed minorities".
Remember, I don't owe nothing to anyone and if you want me to help, you have to ask nicely.

[elab]

matrix2020,
As I already mentioned above, nobody in Labor party wants your money. You keep developing your business and support others providing new jobs.
Guys, don't imagine - go and READ program. It's far from being perfect but it's way better then you may think about it.

[flsh]

I'm never going to vote for Likud so what Feiglin says means nothing to me. Likud supports creating poverty that will destroy this country.

Note: I'm not talking about the populist chant of socialists that the Likud is the proof satan exists. I'm talking about preventing the ultra orthodox from getting jobs by supporting them using benefits that forbid them from going to work. They must "study" to get money. How about we just give them the money and let them work? They go to work, but it only goes to support black economies because they also need their benefits (who blames them, after having 6 kids...)

I have zero faith in any of the big parties. The problems are clear but the people don't want to see them because they think politics are like being fans of football clubs. Instead of demanding certain things fixed people are willing to create new problems so long as the other party isn't in power.

[Kappa21]

Vote Green Party, Achi

[yerushalmi]

מפלגת האבודה רוצה לחרבן גם את הכלכלה זה לא מספיק להם שאוסלו חרבן לנו את הבטחון
סיסמאות זה לא תוכנית כלכלית. עם ההצהרות שלהם תוך כמה שנים אנחנו נהיה ספרד ויוון ולנו אין איחוד שישפוך
כסף להציל את הכלכלות אחרי ממשלות השמאל. וגם אף אחד לא מדבר בבירור על ביטול קצבאות תשימו לב

[Ynhockey]

You don't need to describe me all this since there is nothing to do with Yakhimovitch program.
There are simply no plans to rise taxes for middle class.

Elab, I'm well aware of what the Yehimovich Program says. The question is, how is it implementable? My job as a voter in a democracy is to question what the leader of each party says and not believe them on everything. In this case it's very easy to read between the lines.

The simple fact is, and this is easy to check because other countries have tried it, that most of the taxes will come from the middle class. There's simply no way to get the money Yehimovich wants without taking the money from you and me. Don't let the nice promises fool you—you can't take NIS 140 billion from businesses only (plus small things like an inheritance tax, which I happen to agree with) without collapsing the economy.

Contrary to what a lot of people say (especially leftists), we don't need a "priorities reform" here. The priority now (i.e. economic growth) is what it should be. What we need is encouraging production and wealth creation, rather than wealth redistribution. We can do that by destroying the powerful unions, encouraging competition especially in areas with monopolies (e.g. the food market), and some other small adjustments like preventing cross-ownership of banks and private companies.

As a bonus, here is another video by Bennett where he talks about some of these things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB9R6...&feature=g-all (for the record, I'll probably not vote for him, but he articulates things extremely well and has a good track record, so I just might)

[elab]

yerushalmi,
מה ש"חרבן" לנו את הבטחון זו היתה תמיכת ממשלת ליכוד בשנות ה80 בתנועות דתיות מוסלימיות לרבות חמאס, שהיה אמור לתת משקל נגד אש"פ
הסכמי אוסלו אפשרו לישראל לפרוץ חרם הכלכלי ולקדם כללת המדינה, להמשיך ולקלוט עליה בצורה ראויה יותר (במקום פריסת קרוונים בשטחים על ידי אריק שרון) ולשקם יחסים עם ארה"ב שהיו במצב גרוע אחרי סירובם של אמריקאים לתת ערבויות פיננסיות לישראל
מי שחיבל בתהליך אוסלו אלה היו אקסטרמיסטים משני הצדדים: גם ערבים וגם יהודים
...עמים לא מוכנים להיות בשלום - מה לעשות
אידאולוגיה של בנט ושות' לא תשחזר ארץ ישראל ההיסטורית אך רק תחסל כל אפשרות להפרדה ביננו לבין הפלסטינים - דבר שעלול להיגמר במדינה אחת לשני עמים

[yerushalmi]

אין גבול לשקרים שהשמאל יספר לעצמו, מה. מה שאתם מנסים לתרץ לנו זה מדינת אויב מטוהרת אתנית מיהודים ביהודה ושומרון, ועוד מדינה דו לאומית פה, שזה דה פקטו מה שהשמאל עם מסע השקר העצמי שלו מייצר לנו. אלא אם כן אתה אומר טרנספר לערבים מתוך ישראל כדי באמת לייצר "הפרדה" כלשונך ואז זה כבר נושא אחר, אבל אתה הרי לא מאמין בעצמך למושגים שאתה משתמש בהם. אז אל תספר לי על שתי מדינות לשני עמים אם במדינת העם היהודי יש 20 אחוז ערבים, הערבית שפה רשמית ויש מערכת חינוך נפרדת לערבים.
לגבי הסכמי הדמים של אוסלו מה שהם עשו זה הרימו את אשף מהקרשים בטוניס, והביאו לפה גלי טרור שרצחו 1500 יהודים עם עשרות אלפי פצועים, וגלי טרור מדיני שאנחנו רואים את ההשפעה שלהם כרגע, יחד עם גלי הטרור הרצחני של חמאסטן בעזה אחרי בריחת השמאל שסיפר לנו שזה מחזק "מתונים" ושזה מקדם שלום ושלא יהיו טילים על באר שבע ואשדוד, באלו המילים ממש
אי אפשר לעשות שלום עם מי שמחנך את ילדיו שרצח יהודים זה ציווי דתי עליון וקדוש, ומקדש מחבלים ואת המוות. שלום עושים עם מי שבאמת רוצה שלום. הפלסטינים באמת רוצים בחיסול ישראל, בשיטת שלבים בין אם זה בטרור מדיני תקשורתי או בטרור צבאי. כל המעשים שלהם היו להשתמש באוסלו כדי לייצר מערך של טרור מדיני וצבאי ולהוליך אותנו בכחש שנעם לאוזני השמאל פה
אצלנו השמאל במקום להתפכח ממשיך לספר לנו שגדודי אל אקצה זה המתונים שרוצים שלום, כאילו לא עברנו את חומת מגן גם ביהודה ושומרון. בחייאת נו

[elab]

Originally Posted by Ynhockey

The simple fact is, and this is easy to check because other countries have tried it, that most of the taxes will come from the middle class. There's simply no way to get the money Yehimovich wants without taking the money from you and me. Don't let the nice promises fool you—you can't take NIS 140 billion from businesses only (plus small things like an inheritance tax, which I happen to agree with) without collapsing the economy.

Contrary to what a lot of people say (especially leftists), we don't need a "priorities reform" here. The priority now (i.e. economic growth) is what it should be. What we need is encouraging production and wealth creation, rather than wealth redistribution. We can do that by destroying the powerful unions, encouraging competition especially in areas with monopolies (e.g. the food market), and some other small adjustments like preventing cross-ownership of banks and private companies.

Direct and some indirect taxes (from you and me) are already rised by Bibi. No matter which government will rule here - taxes will stay high and get higher until global crisis will come the the end: our spending deficit increases despite all recent governmental cutoffs.
Besides the fact that today (and at least for some years to come) no economic growth is expected, when such a growth actually was Kadima/Likud didn't use it for people's well-being support and common wealth creation. We've faced huge income separation, middle class disruption and appearance of few giant monopolies instead, which Likud government began to fight only after social protests a year ago.
Powerful unions are not among main problems - there are only three remain: seaports, airports and electricity (that goes to collapse). All others are already crushed or exist very "conditionally" (railways, military industries, post etc.). I know Labor would never touch them (and I hate it). But reality always stronger then any agenda...

[elab]

אל תמכור לי סיפורים על השמאל שברח מעזה. זה מאוד אופייני לימין בישראל להתנער מאחריות על מנהיגים שצמחו בשר מבשרם.
ימין עושה הכל על מנת להפוך 20% של ערבים במדינה ל-40 ויותר ובסופו של דבר להגיע למצב של יוגוסלביה פה.
כמובן, רצוי לחברה' כמו בנט שערבי השטחים פשוט ילכו מפה או אם לא - שישארו כמו סוג ז' של תושבים ללא זכויות אזרחיות - כל זה אוטופיה מסוכנת למדינת ישראל

[flsh]

אני לא מבין מה אתם מברברים על השטחים בכלל.
אם המערב היה רוצה לפתור את זה פשוט היו מאיימים עלינו בסנקציות וישר מי שבשלטון היה מתיישר כמו הכלב הקטן שהוא. כל עוד נותנים לממשלות שלנו גיבוי מלא (להגיד נו נו נו, אבל באותו הזמן לתמוך בנו בצורה מלאה זה ההפך מלגנות - זו צביעות של אירופה ואמריקה) המצב ישאר כפי שהוא.

אי אפשר לפתור את זה במצב הנוכחי. צריך שמישהו מבחוץ יבהיר לממשלות שלנו בדיוק מה אסור לעשות. כל עוד זו התאבדות פוליטית בישראל לדבר על ויתור על מזרח ירושליים ועל השטחים, לא יקום אף פוליטיקאי שינסה לעשות שלום. אם האירופאים והאמריקאים יאיימו בסנקציות יהיה תירוץ טוב למה צריך לעשות שלום. מעט מאוד ישראלים יעדיפו כמה מושבים מחורבנים בשטחים על תל אביב, חיפה, מערב ירושלים, באר שבע וכל שאר הערים. אבל כשהאלטרנטיבה היא לקחת או שזה ישאר אצל אף אחד, אז למה שלא יקחו? את זה צריך לשנות.

אני מאוד שמח שהכירו בפלסטין כמדינה משקיפה באו"ם. הימין בארץ לא יכול להיות בואקום שהמצב הזה יכול להמשך. הם באמת חושבים שישראל תפסיק להיות דמוקרטיה? או שהם מקווים שהערבים יסכימו להחלפת שטחים ויקחו את כל ערביי ישראל? כי בואו נהיה כנים פה, שני הדברים האלה סבירים כמו שיפלו חמישה אסטרואידים על תל אביב אחד אחרי השני היום בערב.

[matrix2020]

elab, taxes are high only because we have so many freeloaders to feed.
If tomorrow the seaports unions would be crashed and their workers suddenly got a sane salary like 15K instead of 40, and train workers responsible for maintenance were to be fired with a private company taking their place and all benefits of IEC were removed (not to mention pension cuts to all those who got their money by blackmailing the state over the years), yes I believe we could lower the taxes.
I fail to understand why thousands of former public sector workers have to get a pension thats higher then most salaries in High tech.
This is the major burden which needs to be removed.
The only problem is we can't move on unless the legal system is turned upside down and a few supreme court judges end up in jail for corruption (Danziger anyone?).It is unbelievable that a bunch of fucking lawyers are ruling this country only because they know the right people and come from the right families.