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Old November 28th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #181
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notice that you mentioned Madison square garden, that's why we want to preserve everything. NYC doesn't want to lose anymore of these



If this could go, then any of the other landmarks you mentioned could share the same fate.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 02:21 AM   #182
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The demolition of Penn Station occurred before the Landmarks Preservation Commission existed, and it's what started the preservation movement in NY on a large, organized scale, so obviously it was never landmarked, and thus is not relevant to a post Landmark's NY.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 06:02 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 View Post
This is laughable. Seriously, even for the internet this is absurd. The UWS as a secluded area? I mean... Think about what you're saying. This is an area within easy walking distance of the largest business district on the entire planet. How can anyone call that secluded? Honestly? To say nothing of the fact that it's denser, and more interesting from an urban perspective than a handful of city cores in the US.



The first part, about the townhouses. Have you ever been to New York? Those townhouses, by NY standards, were pretty forgettable. Go to the UWS, UES, Greenwich Village, East Village, Park Slope, Chelsea, Hells Kitchen, or Harlem, that have literally thousands, let me say that again, thousands, of landmarked townhouses infinitely more attractive than those, to say nothing of the thousands of other townhouses in other parts of the city.

Unless you've spent a considerable amount of time in New York, and not just Manhattan, I can tell you without a doubt, you have no idea just how much of this city dates to the first half of 20th century, and how much of Midtown as well, and how much is landmarked. There's just no way looking at photos on a skyscraper website or watching movies could truly transmit that, to say nothing of the number of new buildings, and neighborhoods that are landmarked each year.

I mean, I've never been to Mecklenburg and you don't see me making huge generalizations about that region do you.
I agree, since this is exactly what I was arguing. I didn't know much about the buildings in the UWS, and frankly I don't consider it a secluded area at all. I still hate the artsy-fartsy feel of it, but it's far more classy than secluded neighborhoods like Greenwich Village, Hell's Kitchen, etc. These secluded areas are initially what I thought you were exclusively talking about in terms of historic preservation, while I had the impression buildings as seen in the UWS were constantly destroyed. It's nice to see all of said buildings designated historic, but Loehmann's in the The Ansonia? If they're going to fill space with junky retail, they might as well demolish it... Regardless, sooner or later hopefully the space will be occupied with something more upscale to reflect the character of the building. Also for God's sake, something needs to be done about replacing the streetlights back to classical ones.

Apart from that, my point is Midtown and Lower Manhattan need stricter historic preservation laws to stop any more 432 Park Avenues, and encourage redeveloping low-density blocks instead. 158 Madison Avenue is a great example of what I'm talking about, and I hope the new render will be as gorgeous as the old one. It's also a viable idea to provide incentives for building owners to restore their respective historic buildings, because many over the years have been insensitively remodeled to Art Deco or modernist appearances.

Last edited by RegentHouse; December 11th, 2012 at 06:08 AM.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 02:10 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegentHouse View Post
THANK YOU! It's like 158 Madison Avenue, and how the developer successfully acquired all the low rise buildings on the corner for a tower, which will complement the historic high-rises in the area and even the Empire State Building. Hopefully, it will usher in more re-development of shabby low-rises for a solid neighborhood rich in history but fit for international business.



I wasn't specifically referring to the Upper West Side. I was referring to places which I will provide an example of below...



I'd hardly call discount retail, a fitness center, college use, or subsidized housing at all prominent. It's desecrating!



Haven't we already? The Drake Hotel. Also the Russell Hotel, but at least a box didn't go in its place. Regardless, the developer could have demolished adjacent low-rise buildings instead, and incorporated the old hotel into the new construction.



Yes, the Corbin Building seems to be good historic preservation. I can't seem to find out what the building is going to be used for...



No, established residential neighborhoods should be preserved. I'm talking about low-rise clusterf***ks, usually along major streets which contrast with surrounding new development. For example, in Hell's Kitchen:

image hosted on flickr


In it's place should be more development like:


A flowing transition is needed between high and low-density neighborhoods, and I believe preservation in the wrong places has segmented the city to the extent that you see the juxtaposition of shabby low-rises and high-rise towers.
I have nothing against Worldwide Plaza, which is one of the best Post-modern buildings in the country, but there is nothing wrong with the stretch of commercial buildings you use as an example.

Not everyone wants to see the old fashioned shopfronts and brownstones scrubbed clean from the Eight and Ninth Avenues.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 12:53 AM   #185
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/re...ref=realestate



Streetscapes

The Wrecking Ball’s Last, Uninhibited Dance Library of Congress

FAMILY COMPOUND Isaac Brokaw’s mansion at Fifth Avenue and 79th Street around World War I. The houses of two of his sons are behind it, facing Fifth; his daughter’s was on 79th.

By CHRISTOPHER GRAY
Published: November 29, 2012 5 Comments

CALL it Little Penn Station. Not many people remember the Brokaw mansions, a charming four-house clump at the northeast corner of Fifth Avenue and 79th Street. But at a time when proposed landmarks legislation was going nowhere, it is likely that the surprise weekend demolition of three of the houses in February 1965 finally put the law over the hump....
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Old December 1st, 2012, 04:39 AM   #186
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^I wouldn't recommend to anyone looking at that intersection today. It's sick. Even in 1965, it still looked reasonable...



Did I mention the shit-stick streetlights that replaced most the classical ones? Oh, I already did?



Yuck.

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Finally? It IS our city. Thank you!
Please, don't be so collective.

Quote:
I have nothing against Worldwide Plaza, which is one of the best Post-modern buildings in the country, but there is nothing wrong with the stretch of commercial buildings you use as an example.

Not everyone wants to see the old fashioned shopfronts and brownstones scrubbed clean from the Eight and Ninth Avenues.
Aren't those brownstones? My point was everything is out of proportion and unsightly. I expected you to say "not everyone wants to see the old-fashioned Park Avenue offices buildings, apartment houses, and/or hotels from Eight and Ninth Avenues."
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Old December 1st, 2012, 04:24 PM   #187
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You know what? True urbanism is about creating something of timeless value.

With destruction of grand historical buildings and construction of soulless boxes, nothing is achieved.

THIS is true urbanism: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...4#post90172784
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 09:47 AM   #188
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Old December 4th, 2012, 07:37 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
You know what? True urbanism is about creating something of timeless value.

With destruction of grand historical buildings and construction of soulless boxes, nothing is achieved.

THIS is true urbanism: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...4#post90172784
You're right. New York is, and never will be Potsdam. And I'm okay with that. On the other hand, to me, THIS is true urbanism.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:45 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
You know what? True urbanism is about creating something of timeless value.

With destruction of grand historical buildings and construction of soulless boxes, nothing is achieved.

THIS is true urbanism: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...4#post90172784
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarn View Post
You're right. New York is, and never will be Potsdam. And I'm okay with that. On the other hand, to me, THIS is true urbanism.
What the hell? Do you even know what are you talking about?
One of you said that the best urbanism is from renaissance, baroqe and classicism, other disagreed saing that the best is in New Amsterdam (Renaissance) and Manhattann grid (classicism)
Get some knowledge before you start arguing.



Modern and neomodern buildings are also something timeless, because It's something completly new (existing only for 150 years). It will be as valuable, as other styles in 200 years.
Modern urbanism (from 60', 70') is ususally only destruction dictated by cars, so we can say that It can be called regresive.
BUT you cannot mistake architecture and urbanism, like you did earlier.





Those things are totally different, even tho they are from the same peroid of time.

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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:48 AM   #191
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I didn't mistake urbanism and architecture. You just did.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:48 AM   #192
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I didn't mistake urbanism and architecture. You just did.
Where? Educate me master.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #193
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Quote:
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image hosted on flickr

Source: wilybrunette
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Old December 5th, 2012, 06:45 AM   #194
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I know, right? We need to strike a balance.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:29 AM   #195
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With all the losses, even this would be acceptable...


I mean hell, there's an Apple Store in the station.

Last edited by RegentHouse; December 6th, 2012 at 07:38 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #196
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With all the losses, even this would be acceptable...


I mean, hell, there's an Apple Store in the station.
Actually the lawsuit related to the Grand Central Station Tower substantiated (legally) the Landmarks Laws that were passed following the destruction of Penn Station. Following a legal battle between the developer and the newly formed Landmarks Preservation Commission, the case over the proposed tower ended up in the U.S. Supreme Court in 1978. A 6-3 majority of the Supreme Court upheld the NYC's landmarks law, saving Grand Central from any future alterations. The ruling provided both New York and other U.S. cities with the legal precedent to preserve their historic architecture. I should mention that not all "historic architecture" was then protected, only that which was deemed a landmark or fell within a landmark district. As you may gather, the Drake hotel had neither of those distinctions.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #197
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America was like 50 years too late with its heritage protection.


In Germany, there were preservation laws introduced by the end of the 19th century already.

Only to think of some idiots going mad and tearing down all the wonderful old towns and replacing them with industrial stuff makes me go nuts. But what the industrialists didn't achieve, the war came in handy for...
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #198
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That's a delightful revitalization project:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsk View Post
Cetra Ruddy transforms 1920's telephone switching building into luxury residential condominium

This conversion of a 1920’s Bell Telephone switching building into the Walker Tower residences offered an opportunity to reimagine the architecture of the building, while respecting the original structure. The result is a 286,000 sq ft, new, lighter Art Deco architecture expressive of both interior organisation and structure that is more reminiscent of cast iron or Gothic in its significantly higher ratio of openings to solid surfaces.

While the solid mass of the original building remains at the base and continues to be occupied by the telephone company from floors one through seven, window openings were enlarged starting at the first residential level. Within the existing bulk of the building, sills were lowered at individual sidewall windows while non-structural masonry piers were removed to insert multi-story tripartite window bays with floor to ceiling glass at streetwalls. Newly added volumes rise along the tower where neutral brick solids are replaced by a vibrant metal rainscreen that consists of profiled vertical metal pilasters and mullions and three dimensionally formed metal spandrels,

Sympathetic to the original building’s use of ornamental statuary bronze and nickel silver, the rainscreen is rendered in a bronze colored stainless steel and metallically-painted formed aluminum plate. The micro-linen texture of the bronze stainless steel and the metallic flake in the aluminum surface creates the appearance of two metals that change according to sunlight and sky patterns. Taking a cue from early renderings showing an unbuilt crown atop the original building, four tapering metal spires were added to extend the tower skyward.

Converting this through-block commercial building to residential use required a unique planning strategy to ensure ample light and air for habitable rooms. Organizing kitchen, bathroom, closet and utility spaces adjacent to building corridors in an interior zone pushes the habitable rooms toward the building exterior. This establishes a sensible circulation network within the residences.

Consonance in apartment interiors is achieved through the use of materials, fixtures and detailing that – while not directly derivative of – is appropriate to the Art Deco pedigree of the building. The interior environment is balanced by a resident programmable home automation system that controls the humidified ducted air conditioning, radiant floor heating, supplemental mechanical ventilation and exhaust system.

The adaptive re-use of Walker Tower combines a true understanding of the original structure with intelligent space planning, sensitivity to materials and state-of-the-art technology to reinterpret a rich architectural past in a way that can be valued in the present.

Source: www.worldarchitecturenews.com













Similar wonders could be done on almost any neglected pre-war building.
At least a gem like the Drake Hotel would more than deserve this attention, instead it gets torn down.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
America was like 50 years too late with its heritage protection.


In Germany, there were preservation laws introduced by the end of the 19th century already.
Good for Germany. I'm sure Germany is much better a preserving its historical architecture, it is much older and its historical buildings have greater cultural value then that found in the U.S.

Regardless, this thread is about New York. I (and other New Yorkers) would be the first to admit that there have been some amazing works of architecture that have been torn down and replaced with forgettable buildings. Every time I go through Penn Station I think about what was once there and hope that in my lifetime the crappy Madison Square Garden is torn down and replaced with a proper gateway rail station.

That said, there has been plenty done in NYC to preserve historic architecture and urban fabric. However, every time I get I give examples you (and others) dismiss them:

"Its in a secluded neighborhood..."

"America was 50 years too late..."

"But what about the Drake Hotel..."

The fact is, today there is a strong preservation movement in NYC. In fact I would argue that no other major U.S. city has done as much to preserve its historical fabric as New York. It pioneered the establishment of a municipal Landmarks Commission. It was the home of Jane Jacobs who transformed the practice of urban planning across the U.S. (and arguably world). Today large swaths of the city are Landmarked, from the Upper West Side to the Village, from SoHo to Tribeca, from the Flatiron District to brownstone Brooklyn. Buildings in areas aren't going anywhere.

You're right in pointing out that there are areas of the city that are not Landmarked (and probably should be). However if the city isn't allow to grow and change it runs the risk of stagnating and losing its position as the American business capitol. And finally, thankfully there is much more to New York than just its nineteenth and early twentieth century architecture.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #200
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While I do believe New York could have done more to preserve its history, then my impression isn't that London is any better in that regard. I guess it's a inherent part of being a growing metropolis.
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