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Old February 23rd, 2014, 04:19 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
since this thread is about hating NYC so I'm done here in this thread
Quite the opposite. I love NYC and its history. That's why I care, why I opened this thread and that's why I'm forthrightly denouncing crimes on its architecture - not the city. Because that way NYC is losing what I love about it, every year a little more of it.

Btw, NYC should consider re-introducing its Zoning Resolution. It'd immediately bring more slender, set-backed and beautiful skyscraper designs to the city again - the kind of ones that made everyone love it.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._City_1932.jpg

And it'd drastically improve the walkability and street level quality of the city, compared to the massive, brutal blocks often built since the 60s. More sun, air, beauty and views for any resident and visitor, even up in the clouds.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:16 AM   #422
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It's a dynamic modern city which still has plenty of architectural ambition.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 12:30 PM   #423
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It sure is. But so are Shanghai, Tokyo, London, Mumbai, Rio, Moscow, Istanbul, Berlin etc... There won't be much setting the skylines and cityscapes of global cities apart, if each one of them continues to tear down its history and unique character.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:01 PM   #424
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Oh please. All those cities are different in every conceivable way and will always remain so.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:06 PM   #425
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They were, and in some way they are still. But with any historical building replaced by another faceless, bland glassy/concrete box, they are getting a little more alike. There isn't much you can deny about that.

While Asian cities/metropolises of the past were vastly different, they tend to look alike where large swathes of history had to vanish for the modernist cityplanners "visions". Same for dozens of American CBDs, sadly.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:12 PM   #426
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It's like saying European cities are alike with their colourful Baroque architecture. There's more to the place than it's architecture.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #427
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Come on, you're argueing like a child now. Of course there is, but cityscapes are predominantly shaped by architecture. Period.

And comparing lush and playful, regionally adapted baroque architecture to internationally exchangeable modernist atrocities seems like bitter sarcasm, to say the least. That's like Rome vs. Seoul.


Btw, it's not like I hate modernist architecture in general. It works pretty good where it has its place. But if it's getting dominant in a city, and especially if it replaces century-grown history, the city itself loses a vital part of its face (with few exceptions).
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:38 PM   #428
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Dresden architecture is the same as architecture in Prague. Sorry but globalization of styles has been around for a very long time indeed.

NYC could demolish all of its old buildings and it would still be NYC. After all it did not stop being NYC when it demolished the Georgian city.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #429
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The problem is that modernist styles since the 20th century (especially Bauhaus / International Style) broke really bad with everything that ever was before.

Of course NYC could demolish all its pre-war architecture and still stay NYC. The thing is, that NYC would suck then. At least for me.

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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Dresden architecture is the same as architecture in Prague. Sorry but globalization of styles has been around for a very long time indeed.
You Sir, obviously don't know much about traditional architecture. There's a lot of regional specifications in Bohemian baroque compared to Elbe/Dresden baroque. Central European architecture shares many features, but also has lots to distinguish. While of course its true different regions and architects always influenced each other, even in ancient and gothic times. Still, they used regional materials, ornaments, colours and symbols. But that's not the point. We never had such exchangeable, faceless stuff popping up everywhere before the international styles arose.

It doesn't make much sense to argue about it here either. My POV will always clash with yours. So stick to yours, but stop interrupting.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Dresden architecture is the same as architecture in Prague. Sorry but globalization of styles has been around for a very long time indeed.

NYC could demolish all of its old buildings and it would still be NYC. After all it did not stop being NYC when it demolished the Georgian city.
I disagree. It's quite easy to distinguish between, say, Vienna, Prague, Berlin, London, Paris and New York when it comes to pre-war architecture.

"Global" styles have always existed, but I dare say regional differences were larger than they are now.

New York will always be New York, but its architecture is one of the things which distinguishes it from whichever Asian megacity out there. Same thing goes imo for trading Saks Fifth Avenue, Bergdorf etc for generic malls and designer boutiques.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 12:47 AM   #431
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"Global" styles have always existed, but I dare say regional differences were larger than they are now.
Really? What of Art-Deco or Art-Nouveau? It was exactly the same in Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai and dozen other places. Equally in the 20s and 30s you could find the same looking towers in NYC, Buenos Aires and São Paulo. The only difference now is that buildings are made of glass and steel.

NYC is not becoming some generic boom town, there's plenty of heritage left and in any case the modern buildings are always different. You guys seem to have fixated on one period of NYC's history.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 07:37 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Really? What of Art-Deco or Art-Nouveau? It was exactly the same in Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai and dozen other places.
Sir, really, please learn more about architecture history before making such statements. Art Nouveau is not same at all. "Secession" from Vienna by Otto Wagner, "modernisme" from Barcelona by Gaudi or Domènech i Montaner, "liberty style" from Triest by Romeo Depaoli, "Jugendstil" from Riga by Mikhail Eisenstein, "модерн" from Moscow by Fyodor Schechtel or Lev Kekushev - that's not just different names, that's really very different concepts, schools and traditions. Even if they all are "art nouveau" in general, you never can mix them up if you saw enough of them...
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Old February 25th, 2014, 03:38 PM   #433
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Yeah they are also exceptions to the rule. Art-Nouveau is the same all across Europe and beyond and that is because it was a global style. Just like Art-Deco and just like contemporary architecture.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...945972&page=32
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Old February 25th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #434
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Please stop making yourself look ridiculous in this thread, Greco. I respect opinions, but you're trying to make false proclamations look like facts.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 07:58 PM   #435
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Please refrain from getting personal. It does not advance your argument one bit.

You claim that pre-war architecture was more diverse than architecture today. To a certain extent this was the case in pre-industrial world, but it was not in the industrial one. As I have shown Art-Nouveau, Art-Deco and other industrial styles were the same everywhere - from London to New York, from Paris to Buenos Aires, from Moscow to Shanghai etc.

I suspect you just dislike contemporary architecture and that's fine and you should say so. Architecture and architects have always traveled. NYC is not becoming Shanghai and Shanghai is not becoming NYC. They are two different cities with vastly different character.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Really? What of Art-Deco or Art-Nouveau? It was exactly the same in Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai and dozen other places. Equally in the 20s and 30s you could find the same looking towers in NYC, Buenos Aires and São Paulo. The only difference now is that buildings are made of glass and steel.

NYC is not becoming some generic boom town, there's plenty of heritage left and in any case the modern buildings are always different. You guys seem to have fixated on one period of NYC's history.
I think Chimer elaborated well enough on art nouveau.

My point wasn't that New York will turn into an Asian boom town just because of this particular development. My comment was that New York won't always be New York if you remove all the pre-war boom town architecture.

Same thing goes with Paris which won't be Paris without all the Hausmannian architecture.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #437
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So New York wasn't New York when it was a Georgian city and Paris wasn't Paris before Haussmann arrived on the scene?

What makes New York New York is the dynamism and energy of the place and not some tired old building that nobody can see.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #438
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To each his own. If NYC manages to balance between dynamics and some harmony to value its heritage, I'm perfectly fine.

This remains fully legit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
I won't. Because what was valid in the 19th century will always be valid, when it comes to aesthetics. Even the most beloved Art Deco highrises still followed the basic aesthetical logic of the 19th and earlier centuries. Only modernists brutally broke with these rules to screw our cityscapes. They may work as solitary buildings, but they fail to comply in ensembles of older, more grand buildings.

Modernist architecture in itself is more than a hundred years old - and has proven to fail at most places, so it's the one to be considered outdated, not classical / traditionalist architecture.

This is simple too:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...k_DSCF2447.JPG

The bulky yet simple GM Building behind the neat Sherry Netherland Hotel. Bulky simplicist Solow Building behind the Plaza.

image hosted on flickr

MetLife von ahisgett auf Flickr

The bulky simplicist MetLife Building behind the grand old Helmsley Building. Modernists ridiculing the idea and genius loci of the urban surroundings.


From what I can say I've heard and read, all these modernist "beauties of simplicity" are considered eyesores by New Yorkers and visitors of the city.

In a similar way, 432 Park is breaking out of context, without any sensibility for what's around. You might say, yeah, that's a character trait of NYC. But it never overruled the NYC aesthetics before the modernist era - towers like 432Park do. And uglify both the historical cityscape and the proportionate skyline of New York, especially from Central Park.

Simplicity neither means clarity, nor fortunate proportions, nor artistic brilliance.

It can, but in this case, as you may notice by reading lots of reactions in here - it fails to do so in the eyes of many.

Beauty is something universally accepted, perceived instantly and without the necessity of deep questioning and academical discussion.

THIS is what applies to a universal conception of beauty: Art Deco


Source @flickr


What's needed? A new zoning law for NYC to reintroduce the setbacks, the main characteristics of New York City.
And a new language of architecture as a valid and continious successor of expressionism, postmodernism and Art Deco.
Neo-Historism can be part of a proper response.
This has to be taught by architecture schools. Not any more boxy concrete shelves designed by AutoCAD.
No more random 432 Park boxes!


And indeed, architectural discussion about this tower to subject is allowed in here so don't feel the need to reprimand anyone.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 02:40 AM   #439
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Worth Reading

http://gizmodo.com/9-of-the-most-bea...own-1524596913
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Old February 26th, 2014, 03:57 AM   #440
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Wow, they're tearing down the Mayfair for such a bland glass blooper?

WTF is wrong with NYC?


http://www.emporis.com/building/701-...rk-city-ny-usa
the top of building has a nice stucco sculptured roof soffits, and it can be removed and saved. but the rest... it is just a box covered by the huge billboards to such an extent that you can hardly see anything behind it. normally if it was a functional building, not a billboard hanger, I would strongly be against taking it down, but here...
I bet it is just a multistory warehouse with nothing worthy of note inside.
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