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Old March 27th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hordak1975 View Post
56 Leonard is an abomination?
http://56leonardtribeca.com/wp-conte...View-draft.jpg

It's absolutely amazing. Period.
Hell, no. I'm not even accepting this as a matter of taste. It could have been sort of acceptable if they took better care of the top, making it soaring slenderly. The current design looks like something's toppling over any time there. The architects at H&DM obviously didn't know shit about proper proportions. Check out Maha Nakhon for instance, way better.

But that way, I'm far from appreciating this deconstructivist pile of jenga toy blocks. Besides, it doesn't have any sort of "Manhattan appeal" to it. It could just as well be located in Bangkok (as linked), Dubai or Shanghai. Totally random.

Is that really how to make a positive impact on the cityscape? How to make a true NYC skyscraper?

I think e.g. Stern performs way better at this discipline. He was awarded the Driehaus Prize for a reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
This is how far more contemporary Manhattan projects should look like,
respecting and developing the city's uncomparable skyscraper history:

Current New Classical Robert A. M. Stern highrise projects for New York

15 Central Park West, 30 Park Place, 220 Central Park South, 520 Park Avenue

Imagelink

Stern should even go farther, add modern ornamentation, sculptures and feel free to innovate organically (compare to GE Building). My guess is investors are the ones who interfere once it might look too classical or Art Nouveauesque innovative.

Btw I'm perfectly fine with having a setbacked or soaring Tower Verre or One57 from time to time.
But please stop erecting all those boxy, bulky, unproportioned and eeky gagatecture abominations like 432 Park Ave, 610 Lexington Ave and 56 Leonard! THANK YOU!
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Old March 27th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #462
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Hell, no. I'm not even accepting this as a matter of taste.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 03:14 PM   #463
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56 Leonard is incredible in my opinion. I used to walk by its construction site often, those cantilevers are massive and something I haven't seen before.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 03:57 PM   #464
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Impressive/Incredible ≠ Beautiful/Sustainable (see Dubai for reference)

But we'll agree to disagree here. Tower Verre, One57 and the Stern towers are what elevate NYC further aesthetically, in my opinion. Generally said, there should be more setbacked, stone-cladded Art-decoesque 21st century towers. Instead of all the international style exchangeable glassy stuff.

NCA + Art Deco is the way to go.

NYC, build elegant towers of stone and you can reclaim your architectural throne!
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Old March 28th, 2014, 04:26 PM   #465
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I like the Stern buildings as well. But I think variety is good! Just my opinion.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 12:50 PM   #466
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And erbse is funding all those ornaments

His fixation over historical architecture is ridiculous. Even in mostly-protected Europe, the trend is to build new and protect old, not build fake-old (I'm not talking about reconstruction). Why? Beacause It's
1. fake
2. very often not really as good as old
3. expensive
We are lucky Stern is good

NYC has many great architects and projects. Most of those towers (including 432 and 57) are top-notch, much better than asian average. What NYC needs to do is to protect old more carefully while going forward with new grand project like Hudson Yards, and It'll be fine.
It's about using classical proportions and materials, not necessarily adding columns, pilasters, festoons etc to buildings.

There seems to be enough money to warp buildings in every thinkable way so that ornamentation would be too expensive is just a lie. The only thing which is in short supply is the will to do it.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #467
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Manhattan is stuffed with old brick highrises. The sacrifice a couple of those for the sake of progress is not a bad thing.
Replacing historic architecture by buildings that could rise in every major city around the world you call progress? If this progress continues, Manhattan can lose its identity. It's not just a few old buildings that are being lost. A huge damage to the city has already been done, many landmarks have disappeared over the past decades and the damage continues.
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Old March 30th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #468
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That might just be the most beautiful bookshop I've ever seen. They're not planning on demolishing it anytime soon are they? Might get to visit NY within the next couple of years and I'd hate to miss out on a place like that.

originally it was not a book store. Rizzoli had a main store in Soho and then they decided to move to more central location. IMHO it would be a big loss to loose these interiors.

My approach wold be - save the 2-3 floors on the bottom and build new on top. the facades and the interior is worth saving. but to make it more feasible for developers they should be allowed to build on top.
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Old March 30th, 2014, 08:23 PM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
This is how far more contemporary Manhattan projects should look like,
respecting and developing the city's uncomparable skyscraper history:

Current New Classical Robert A. M. Stern highrise projects for New York

15 Central Park West, 30 Park Place, 220 Central Park South, 520 Park Avenue

Imagelink

Stern should even go farther, add modern ornamentation, sculptures and feel free to innovate organically (compare to GE Building). My guess is investors are the ones who interfere once it might look too classical or Art Nouveauesque innovative.

Btw I'm perfectly fine with having a setbacked or soaring Tower Verre or One57 from time to time.
But please stop erecting all those boxy, bulky, unproportioned and eeky gagatecture abominations like 432 Park Ave, 610 Lexington Ave and 56 Leonard! THANK YOU!
I agree with you. but please note that all of these above are either elite luxury apartments or hotels. it is quite expensive siding these days. The only modern building that has similar siding is The Setai Fifth Avenue 400 on 5th avenue. and it is also a luxury hotel/apartment building. the siding is done from a mix of limestone, glass and cement panels.


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Old March 30th, 2014, 08:30 PM   #470
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I'm going to go even further

Newspaper row cannot be reconstructed because they were demolished to build a new ramp system to Brooklyn Bridge. Singer albeit beautiful was always economically very below standard building due to very very little space per floor. it is hard to find anyone who can use such a building today. it took a good amount of talk and incentives to ask NYU to move part of its offices to Woolworth tower due to simple fact - it is high maintenance and very little useful space.

A new Penn station - this is where you are closer than anywhere else. since the city does need a new one. there is a big discussion about it in NYC section - you are welcome to participate.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...153483&page=13

also a photo thread of engendered buildings
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1630507
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Old March 30th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMS guy View Post
Replacing historic architecture by buildings that could rise in every major city around the world you call progress? If this progress continues, Manhattan can lose its identity. It's not just a few old buildings that are being lost. A huge damage to the city has already been done, many landmarks have disappeared over the past decades and the damage continues.
But we live in a global era. Architects, the famous ones, have a worldwide clientele, they are no longer limited to their own geographic original area. Construction techniques now spread around the globe, and materials, which are industrialized, are shipped and/or imported worldwide.

It is only obvious that newer architectural styles would also be global. I applaud and welcome the globalization of architecture. There is nothing to bound aesthetics to rigid boundaries as if we were living in 1750.
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Old March 30th, 2014, 10:24 PM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
Newspaper row cannot be reconstructed because they were demolished to build a new ramp system to Brooklyn Bridge. Singer albeit beautiful was always economically very below standard building due to very very little space per floor. it is hard to find anyone who can use such a building today. it took a good amount of talk and incentives to ask NYU to move part of its offices to Woolworth tower due to simple fact - it is high maintenance and very little useful space.

A new Penn station - this is where you are closer than anywhere else. since the city does need a new one. there is a big discussions about it in NYC section - you are welcome to participate.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...153483&page=13

also a photo thread of engendered buildings
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1630507
I dont mean Reconstruting park Row Especially considering that most of it (except For the World and Tribune buildings) is still there and virtually unchanged !! Rather, I was saying that we should attempt to create a number of buildings similar to them.

Also, I think you may want to look at this drawing a made a little while back.
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Old March 31st, 2014, 01:50 PM   #473
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but please note that all of these above are either elite luxury apartments or hotels.
And so are pretty much all the other newly built towers in central Manhattan. It's not like building this way is considerably more expensive than building e.g. something deconstructivist (quite the opposite actually). It's just that architects, urban planners, politicians, journalists and other lobby groups influence both the general discourse and investors in favour of "modernist" architecture. This is going on for about 90 years now.

I think it's about time to get rid of this habit and open the discourse for more traditional approaches, in line with our thousands of years of architectural history.
I'm not saying "build everything in traditional architecture styles!". I'm saying "build more in traditional architecture styles and respect our pre-modernist architectural heritage more!". This is especially directed towards NYC, as it remains one of the most influential places on Earth for contemporary architecture discourse.
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Old March 31st, 2014, 01:54 PM   #474
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By the way, New York architect Robert A.M. Stern discussed here was the 2011 laureate of the Driehaus Architecture Prize. Read more about it here.

It comes with a prize money of $200,000, twice that of the famed modernist Pritzker Prize.




1994 Fell Hall Highrise at Brooklyn Law School, NYC by Stern Architects:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._Fell_Hall.jpg


Neither a luxury condo or hotel, but a school.
There's loads of educational buildings in New Classical Architecture in the US, also many churches, public buildings, private residences and midclass condo towers.
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Old March 31st, 2014, 02:34 PM   #475
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I just created this thread, featuring Robert Stern:

NYC Architects - Those who built New York City and its Image
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Old March 31st, 2014, 07:51 PM   #476
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And so are pretty much all the other newly built towers in central Manhattan. It's not like building this way is considerably more expensive than building e.g. something deconstructivist (quite the opposite actually). It's just that architects, urban planners, politicians, journalists and other lobby groups influence both the general discourse and investors in favour of "modernist" architecture. This is going on for about 90 years now.

I think it's about time to get rid of this habit and open the discourse for more traditional approaches, in line with our thousands of years of architectural history.
I'm not saying "build everything in traditional architecture styles!". I'm saying "build more in traditional architecture styles and respect our pre-modernist architectural heritage more!". This is especially directed towards NYC, as it remains one of the most influential places on Earth for contemporary architecture discourse.
you are right in general, but there is a pretty significant difference between say elite luxury on Central Park West and somewhere in Chelsey. the first one fetch you a price tag of 60-100 million dollars for the penthouse. the similar size penthouse in Chelsey will be 25-30. since the margin of profitability for the developer is rather small (despite all this extravaganza it is about 15-20% per building) they will do any sort of trick to minimize their spending.

besides, no matter what you and me think of stone cladding and all art deco architectural elements, general public just love modern glass more than anything. it is considered more fashionable. I regret to say this very much, but... There is some revival of stone and brick as an element of new construction, but it is rather limited.
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Old March 31st, 2014, 08:04 PM   #477
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general public just love modern glass more than anything.
How so? What's your source? Polls, statistics?

If we look at e.g. tourist numbers, it's more than obvious that sites of classical architecture, old towns and pre-modernist landmarks are visited the most. Empire State and Chrysler Building aren't modern glass towers, neither are the Rockefeller, Flatiron, Woolworth, Brooklyn Bridge or Statue of Liberty.

Rome, Prague, Paris, Boston, Istanbul, Edinburgh, Rothenburg, Carcassonne, Dubvovnik, Jerusalem, Quito, Zanzibar, Sana'a, Havana, Venice, Florence, etc. etc.
These are the places that are frequented by visitors from around the world, not Brasilia, Canberra or some Corbusier satellite towns only the modernist "elite" cares about.
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Old March 31st, 2014, 11:39 PM   #478
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erbse, why do you get this idea that creativity and appropriate tastes in architecture stopped with WW2? That is ludicrous.

You also make several mistakes:

* Canberra and Brasilia are relatively new cities without that many attractions.
* Dubai, Tokyo, Las Vegas are full of modern skyscrapers and busting with tourists. Even Disneyland is, for that matter.
* People don't travel only because of architecture, the other cities you mentioned have a lot of history (that goes fat beyond the shell of buildings), some have sites of religious utmost significance, others have museums with great collections, others don't even figure on a top-100 of most visited places on Earth
* People don't necessarily like the places they live to look like the places they go on vacations for a short time
* The World Trade Center was a typical late modernist tower and was one of the most visited sites in New Work until it came down

It is completely wrong to judge housing or office preferences based on tourist numbers. Many Alpine summits are coveted by tourists worldwide, they pay a lot for a short visit on them, that doesn't mean a lot of people are eager to live above 2000m altitudes on steep mountain slopes, or live in a place where they need to ski down to their workplace.
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Old April 1st, 2014, 01:24 AM   #479
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Still we're safe to conclude people generally are in favour of traditional architecture. Else your gloomy dystopic vision of mankind tearing down most of its pre-modernist heritage would come true already.
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Old April 1st, 2014, 03:01 AM   #480
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Of course most of the people want to see old buildings, but I am not sure that they would come to see old-styled buildings.
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