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Old July 1st, 2017, 05:53 AM   #681
mrsmartman
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We had to admit that the lack of respect for historical buildings is what makes New York a great city in the first place.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 04:40 AM   #682
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To an extent, but mostly in the pre-war era when mansions, brownstones, and tenements were replaced with apartment houses, hotels, or office buildings. The best examples are the original Waldorf-Astoria replaced with the Empire State Building and Grand Central Station with Grand Central Terminal. However, it's no longer the case since the post-war era, where replacements are usually vastly inferior and could be built elsewhere nearby at the same price. Some of the city's greatest buildings like the Singer Building and City Investing Tower were replaced with One Liberty Plaza (formerly the U.S. Steel Building), Charles M. Schwab House with a hulking tower block turd called simply called Schwab House, and of course, Drake Hotel with 432 Park Avenue, which is also an eyesore to its surroundings.

To wit, albeit on a smaller scale:
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A whole chunk of the Fifth Avenue side of that block needs to be redeveloped, specifically 306, 308, and 310 Fifth Avenue. Also maybe 312, and even 314 Fifth Avenue and the aforementioned if any proposal is superior. 2 West 32nd Street is also a shitter. However, being that only the corner and frankly best building is being redeveloped into what will likely be a modernist toothpick tower, it's an absolute attrocity! Where's Anthony Malkin with complaints obstructing his Empire State Building views when you need him?
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Old July 8th, 2017, 05:00 AM   #683
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a beautiful old corner building should not be demolished for an insignificant skyscraper, even if the old building looks dilapidated. The Drake I could tolerate because we knew its demolition would yield a supertall. I also happen to like how 432 Park turned out. This building is also older - not a dime a dozen art deco.

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Old July 9th, 2017, 08:17 AM   #684
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Art deco in general was the source of architectural superiority when buildings were actually beautiful and inspirational like classical music and visual art.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 12:01 AM   #685
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Modernists are like communist; buildings should be boring and should be all the same. Demolishing an old building means also the disappearance of life, like shops, restaurants, and make place for an boring office, that could have been fitted perfectly in the old building, with some restorations if needed.
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Old July 11th, 2017, 08:11 AM   #686
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Modernists are like communist; buildings should be boring and should be all the same.
That's really a candidate for the most stupid phrase of the Year Award...


You might just dismantle this one below and hand it over to Berlin. Would be a nice addition in place of one of the emty lots.

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Old July 11th, 2017, 01:15 PM   #687
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That's really a candidate for the most stupid phrase of the Year Award...
How so? Early modernism was deeply rooted in communist ideals, on social ideas in various ways. See Neues Bauen, Bauhaus, De Stijl, New Objectivity, to an extent even Werkbund/Reformstil plus Arts and Crafts.
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Old July 11th, 2017, 03:48 PM   #688
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Erbse, simply for the fact, that 112998 was refering explicite to the american examples and as we all know, Communism was not very "popular" in the USA in comparison to Capitalism...

Further to that, neither Communism nor Socialism ever had the aproach of making Buildings as "boring and uniform" as possible as we see in the vide variety of Architecture in socialist countries.

You're right, that early modernism was heavily charachterized by social ideas, and it produced very different stiles and solutions as shown by your very own examples

You, erbse, know all of this pretty well and so i have the impression that you, as so often, just tried to opose for the sake of an oposition itself because my statement argues with your own "conservative" personal believes
So lets just leave it at that, and lets go further with the topic
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Old July 11th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #689
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I'm not going to leave it at that. He was right in that, both communists and modernists seek to create some sort of "equality" in people, usually and falsely by egalitarianism. That it produced very different results of dullness and misanthropy is of no matter. While of course we also got some very interesting buildings due to this mentality. My home town Neubrandenburg is like the perfect distillate of that, and so is East Berlin.

Anyway. Gosh, this lovely Beaux Arts corner building on Fifth Avenue urgently needs heritage protection!
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Old July 12th, 2017, 09:47 AM   #690
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I'm not going to leave it at that. He was right in that, both communists and modernists seek to create some sort of "equality" in people, usually and falsely by egalitarianism. That it produced very different results of dullness and misanthropy is of no matter. While of course we also got some very interesting buildings due to this mentality. My home town Neubrandenburg is like the perfect distillate of that, and so is East Berlin.
erbse, the key point is, that he was generalizing that modernism is only closely connected to communism, which is not true, as it is capitalism that produces those plain an ugly office boxes so usual in US skylines

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Anyway. Gosh, this lovely Beaux Arts corner building on Fifth Avenue urgently needs heritage protection!
Yes, you're right on that, but as they sadly wont do it, they could just dismantle and sell it to someone else
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Old July 14th, 2017, 01:05 PM   #691
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I made my self unclear. I did not mean that modernism is part of communism or so. I meant that the architecture of both communist architecture and modernism are nothing more than copying the same buildings all over, like the flats in the Moskow suburbs, the same happens in big cities, by "modernizing" it. It's not about the ideology but the architecture, and not only the communist style, but also in common the international style that occurred in the 20s.
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Old July 14th, 2017, 01:54 PM   #692
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I made my self unclear. I did not mean that modernism is part of communism or so. I meant that the architecture of both communist architecture and modernism are nothing more than copying the same buildings all over, like the flats in the Moskow suburbs, the same happens in big cities, by "modernizing" it. It's not about the ideology but the architecture, and not only the communist style, but also in common the international style that occurred in the 20s.
You're making a big confusion here between the commieblock on one hand and modernism and communism on the other. The commieblock is timeless. Urban growth with the poor housed in mass-built cheap featureless collective housing happens regularly throughout history, for example in ancient Rome its version of the commieblock was called the "insula". The industrial era was another peak. Communism was just the latest period of history when this happened again.

On the other hand, the architecture of communism encompasses a fair amount of variety from within the modern era of architecture. It encompasses for example Russian constructivism, which was one of the most creative outbursts in the history of architectural movements, but it also encompasses the stalinist style, which was a very conservative sort of modern neoclassicism. It also encompasses brutalism, post-modernism... I suggest browsing the "Socialist architecture" thread and see the diversity it hosts right from the source: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post141091857
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Old July 20th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #693
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NYC has a history of turning hotels into co-ops and condos, so I don't see it as much of an issue.

The Roosevelt Hotel fills an city entire block, as well as Grand Hyatt New York (formerly Commodore Hotel) if you consider Grand Central Market segmenting East 43rd street as an arcade. Both are currently under threat of demolition because of the rezoning proposal.

I believe Obama and the Democraps had an event at the Roosevelt ballroom, and conditions were apparently terrible. It would be great to see it restored while making upgrades necessary for current times.
It is an issue because the apartments created within the hotels are going to hurt NYC's hotel-room supply in the long term.

I understand that these condos and co-ops at the Waldorf-Astoria are permanent residences that somebody could occupy for literally years. That means less hotel rooms after its renovation. Any time the words "condominium" and "co-op" are mentioned, it usually means "permanent residential apartments". So any future hotel guest at the waldorf-Astoria will be enticed to become permanent residents of that building.

I doubt anyone is going to stay at a hotel's apartment/co-op unit for just a few days or a week, or even a whole month, especially a four-bedroom penthouse. This is why I will never be a big fan of reducing a hotel's number of rooms just to create even a small number of permanent residences.

And BTW, the blocks that the Roosevelt and Grand Hyatt Hotels occupy are smaller than the block filled by the Waldorf-Astoria.
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Old July 21st, 2017, 08:17 PM   #694
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I'm not going to leave it at that. He was right in that, both communists and modernists seek to create some sort of "equality" in people, usually and falsely by egalitarianism. That it produced very different results of dullness and misanthropy is of no matter. While of course we also got some very interesting buildings due to this mentality. My home town Neubrandenburg is like the perfect distillate of that, and so is East Berlin.

Anyway. Gosh, this lovely Beaux Arts corner building on Fifth Avenue urgently needs heritage protection!
I don't think there's much chance of heritage protection with this building and even if it received that it's no guarantee it would survive, knowing what goes on in that city. Landmark designation didn't stop the raising of the wonderful and historic Biltmore Hotel for example so what chance a small building like this? There are of course some very good new buildings in NYC but in spite of many improvements I've fallen out of love with the city, the catalyst for me was the hideous transformation of Times Square which was ripe for restoration not almost total demolition for banality and mediocrity.
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