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Old November 30th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #201
MrAronymous
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
So your idea of how a freeway with four lanes each way, through an urban area with lots of on ramps, should look is three empty lanes, an uninterrupted flow in the right lane, and entering traffic waiting so long to enter that they're causing backups on the local streets.... (And when someone does get impatient and cut it too close, that uninterrupted flow in the right lane turns into a 40-vehicle chain reaction collision.)

That's daft.
Wow you're so good at drawing conclusions. Back tot high school with you.

What he is saying that traffic should stick to the right as much as possible. So yes, if you would have every car driving the exact same speed, they should all be in 1 file and no one passing. That of course doesn't happen, so the second third and fourth lanes are used for traffic overtaking eachother (or just generally driving faster when it's busy). That's the basic European rule. If there's onramps with loads of cars wanting to merge, you could switch from lane 1 to lane 2 out of courtesy to let them merge and keep the traffic flowing smoothly. If it's not possible, then it sucks for the mergers, but then they have to wait with merging, that's how it is. So they either continue driving on the shoulder and try to merge later, or when no shoulder present actually come to a halt. But that rarely happens. Reality is that when it's harder to merge because the lanes are saturated, the whole road is saturated so it'll most likely end up being a traffic jam with slow traffic where merging is made easier by the lack of higher speeds.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
Wow you're so good at drawing conclusions. Back tot high school with you.
That was uncalled for. (So was the "daft," perhaps, but Road_UK knows me well enough, I think....)


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Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
What he is saying that traffic should stick to the right as much as possible. So yes, if you would have every car driving the exact same speed, they should all be in 1 file and no one passing. That of course doesn't happen, so the second third and fourth lanes are used for traffic overtaking eachother (or just generally driving faster when it's busy). That's the basic European rule.
That's my basic rule, too, actually. And what I've been saying all along. But there are people here who practically cream their pants when they see pictures of a freeway with three empty lanes and a crowded right lane and even congratulate whatever country it is's drivers for being superior human beings.

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If there's onramps with loads of cars wanting to merge, you could switch from lane 1 to lane 2 out of courtesy to let them merge and keep the traffic flowing smoothly.
Here, I disagree: the traffic on the freeway can't always see how many people are on the ramp. I'd even go so far as to say it's rare for them to be able to see anything other than the first few cars. (If the freeway's elevated above the surrounding streets so much of the ramp is below the level of the freeway's roadbed, or if there's a sound barrier...)
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:01 PM   #203
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Merging is really hard for people it seems sometimes. A while ago I was driving in right lane, at maybe 50 MPH. I see a minivan approaching from a long, sweeping onramp, and they are a bit ahead of me, but slower, maybe 45 MPH. So they arrive at the taper next to me, then slammed brakes not to hit me (I was watching this in slow motion so I didn't bother to change lane). Hello, idiota?

Ontario is probably the worst - the longest onramps in the world, and people still pull into the 120-130 km/h traffic at 80 clueless to the other vehicles...
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:02 PM   #204
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Minivans and SUVs should be banned.

(I don't actually mean that. I think...)
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:08 PM   #205
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Ontario is probably the worst - the longest onramps in the world, and people still pull into the 120-130 km/h traffic at 80 clueless to the other vehicles...
I sometimes want to shout at people "It's called an acceleration lane for a reason!"
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #206
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Look, it's not rocket science. You keep right unless overtaking. It's that simple. If you want to move a lane to let merging traffic join the main carriageway, then that's fine as it's a form of overtaking as well.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:21 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Here, I disagree: the traffic on the freeway can't always see how many people are on the ramp. I'd even go so far as to say it's rare for them to be able to see anything other than the first few cars. (If the freeway's elevated above the surrounding streets so much of the ramp is below the level of the freeway's roadbed, or if there's a sound barrier...)
Well contrary to what I may have implied, it doesn't matter how long the line of merging traffic is. If you see the first few cars approaching that's enough to know they might need space and it'd be nice of you to move a lane to the left.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:30 PM   #208
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Look, it's not rocket science. You keep right unless overtaking. It's that simple. If you want to move a lane to let merging traffic join the main carriageway, then that's fine as it's a form of overtaking as well.
And I'm basically assuming - based on where and when I do most of my driving - that merging traffic, or little old ladies sticking to 55, are going to come up regularly. If you want to label that as constantly overtaking, that works. If I'm on a rural Interstate with two lanes each direction (or even a non-rural one with more than two lanes but that seems to be quiet that day) I'll keep right unless I need to pass.

There's also something to be said for respecting the driving culture you're in.

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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:33 PM   #209
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A very annoying thing in the Netherlands are people who want to merge onto the main lanes as soon as the merging lane begins, without regard of other traffic, or the speeds driven for that matter. Especially because in the Netherlands merging lanes are 400 meters (quarter mile) long (14 seconds of driving at 100 km/h!) so in nearly all circumstances you can get to 120 km/h before merging, even in a car with a less powerful engine.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:38 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A very annoying thing in the Netherlands are people who want to merge onto the main lanes as soon as the merging lane begins, without regard of other traffic, or the speeds driven for that matter. Especially because in the Netherlands merging lanes are 400 meters (quarter mile) long (14 seconds of driving at 100 km/h!) so in nearly all circumstances you can get to 120 km/h before merging, even in a car with a less powerful engine.

This is notorious. Also when there is only one car on the road and one in the merging lane, the car in the merging lane drives parallel untill he is out of road and expects you to change lanes

The only times that I change lanes for merging traffic is when it is really busy on the road, for a slow semi-truck or if I'm speeding.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:44 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A very annoying thing in the Netherlands are people who want to merge onto the main lanes as soon as the merging lane begins, without regard of other traffic, or the speeds driven for that matter. Especially because in the Netherlands merging lanes are 400 meters (quarter mile) long (14 seconds of driving at 100 km/h!) so in nearly all circumstances you can get to 120 km/h before merging, even in a car with a less powerful engine.
Maybe you need to make something like this Soviet on-ramp?
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #212
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No, they should just draw a solid line in the beginning. It's highly annoying here as well.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #213
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my morning commute there is an onramp but the traffic on the main road is stopped (congestion). So people stop at the beginning of the ramp and wait to enter, drives me nuts, I sometimes pass them on the right side of the ramp / shoulder and go to the end and enter in the space
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Old November 30th, 2014, 08:22 PM   #214
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No, they should just draw a solid line in the beginning. It's highly annoying here as well.
And this prevents people from merging? In Italy solid lines are completely ignored.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #215
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Yes, this is not Italy .
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Old November 30th, 2014, 09:43 PM   #216
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And this prevents people from merging? In Italy solid lines are completely ignored.
In some places they ignore the unbroken white lines on merge lanes in my Latvia too so I think it wouldn't solve the problem on merge lanes in many countries.

But, of course, in my city there is one ramp where drivers ignore everything and end up on the wrong way of the dual carriageway...
(Video starting 1:28)
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 03:40 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
So your idea of how freeway with four lanes each way, through an urban area with lots of on ramps, should look is three empty lanes, an uninterrupted flow in the right lane, and entering traffic waiting so long to enter that they're causing backups on the local streets.... (And when someone does get impatient and cut it too close, that uninterrupted flow in the right lane turns into a 40-vehicle chain reaction collision.)

That's daft.
1. Traffic would not all be in the right lane because people will be overtaking so maybe1 or 2 lane would be empty allowing you to overtake when you get behind them insted of traffic just using all the lane blocking the road.

2. Merging traffic wouldn't have to wait because traffic on the frewway should leave sufficient gaps between cars allowing them to merge or alternatively cars could move to an overtaking lane to allow you to merge and if you still can't do it then shame on you you shouldn't be allowed to merge.

3. There shouldn't be a multi vehicular collision because traffic should be leaving breaking distance and if you don't you've got the hard shoulder and the 2nd lane to go to if the worst comes to the worst.

If you had actually seen driving on European highways you'd know that even on urban motorways traffic flows smoothly and traffic can even merge when traffic is all in the right lane. In the uk the highways agency have estimated that a third of our motorway network is lost during peak times due to lane hogging and I can only imagine it's worse in the US so if you're willing to wast large amounts of road space then you just keep hogging the overtakinglane but don't cocomplain when your roads are completely ground to a halt.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 03:21 AM   #218
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving...ane_discipline:

"Drivers on dual carriageways (which may or may not be motorways) are usually expected to use the left-most lane unless overtaking other vehicles on the road, unless signs or road markings indicate that the left-most lane(s) is only for traffic leaving at the next junction. Drivers who wish to overtake a slower vehicle are thus expected to move out from their lane (having used the indicator lights to warn other road-users of their intention to do so), pass the slower vehicle and return to the left-most lane. This enables faster traffic to overtake unhindered if it wishes to do so. On the UK's busiest roads, where there may be four or more lanes in each direction, there is often a situation where overtaking becomes continual as each successive lane moves at a slightly faster speed than that to its left."

Which is exactly what I've been advocating since Post One of this thread.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 04:02 AM   #219
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Illustration of a freeway with seven passing lanes each direction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The West County Connectors project in California is now practically completed. The new HOV ramps will open soon.

I-405 features 8 lanes in each direction between CA-22 and I-605.

Incidentally, if you Google either "Wikipedia lane discipline" or "lane discipline definition," you come upon this very thread before you've hit post 50. (In the former case, before post 25.) That's one indication of how universally known the lane discipline purist's rule really is.
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Old December 11th, 2014, 12:59 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving...ane_discipline:

"Drivers on dual carriageways (which may or may not be motorways) are usually expected to use the left-most lane unless overtaking other vehicles on the road, unless signs or road markings indicate that the left-most lane(s) is only for traffic leaving at the next junction. Drivers who wish to overtake a slower vehicle are thus expected to move out from their lane (having used the indicator lights to warn other road-users of their intention to do so), pass the slower vehicle and return to the left-most lane. This enables faster traffic to overtake unhindered if it wishes to do so. On the UK's busiest roads, where there may be four or more lanes in each direction, there is often a situation where overtaking becomes continual as each successive lane moves at a slightly faster speed than that to its left."

Which is exactly what I've been advocating since Post One of this thread.
All of this is right except from the bit about four or more lanes, what Wikipedia says is a sign of bad lane discipline, anyway just because Wikipedia says it dosen't make it right and at several times Wikipedia is wrong. The actual highway code says you should always use the left hand lane when the road ahead is clear. It also says you should return the the left hand lane once you have completed your overtake when it is safe to do so. If you don't believe me read the highway code it's rule 264.
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