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Old July 24th, 2013, 05:56 AM   #3001
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ich dachte laut daf ist ein Kran weg, aber hier sind noch 2 zu sehen??

Nur noch die Schrägen sind zu verkleiden

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Old July 24th, 2013, 11:16 AM   #3002
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Old July 24th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #3003
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Old July 24th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #3004
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Originally Posted by Ondro View Post
You are just ignoring the facts by putting yourself into denial and ignoring my arguments and ridiculng my post for unimportant information.

This is just how these French forumers operate.

You tell them facts. They block you out and post a few more pictures of the average LD again claiming it to be built by the Gods of art and beauty... Some shit like that.
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Old July 24th, 2013, 01:08 PM   #3005
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Old July 24th, 2013, 01:42 PM   #3006
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As you know well, when the E. Tower was proposed the residents of Paris tried to block it because they hated it -
it would dominate their 'beloved' city centre etc. It was the foreign tourists who took a liking to it - because they did
not have to live with it. When the French realised the foreigners liked it they also decided to like it. Et Voila!
As expected, you know almost nothing about the ET...at first, everybody loved it & it was very successful among the french & the foreigners, but some famous french intellectuals didn't like it & used their notoriety to make people change their opinion about it. The Eiffel was supposed to be destroyed after 20 years, but its builder Gustave Eiffel was clever enough to make it multi purpose (weather forecast/TV reception & many other scientific experiences), thanks to his expertise, he saved it & to date, the Eiffel Tower has become the most iconic & magical tower in the world (for your information, it's the most copied tower on the planet...)

Last but not least, the Eiffel Tower will have a brand new lighting next year...

You'd better get to know all its history...---> HERE

Back on topic.
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Old July 24th, 2013, 01:44 PM   #3007
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You are just ignoring the facts by putting yourself into denial and ignoring my arguments and ridiculng my post for unimportant information. If you wish, we can compare St. Petersburg tram system, the second longest tram system with paris tram system, it is the same. And I am not comparing Prague and Paris, but giving an example of developed tram system. It has 140km of tram tracks that are serving areas between the metro stations and connecting metro stations with some minor places of interest and are sercing the parts of city that does not have metro. That is what tram should do. It should not be replacement for metro but its supplement, to feed it with users. If you need to go for 500m-1km ride you dont use metro, you use tram. It has an advantage over short distance that you don't have to go underground and waste time going up and down and it goes in shorter intervals. Because all of above, it allows to the metro to have fewer stops and to be faster. Metro should be a fast way for people from periphery to come to the center. Then they would walk or use tram to get to their exact destination. Also it allows the tourists that go mostly just a few stops to use another mean of transportation and helps the metro get rid of them, thus making it for locals more comfortable to move around. If it goes to suburb, then it exchanges people - at station with metro connection people going to center gets off and people going to specific locations that are between metro stations are getting in. Just as simple as that.

You can not have only one kind of public transport in the center if you wish not to have traffic jams and the buses capacity is just not enough.
If you need to go for a 500-1km ride, just use your feet, it's cheap, quick and good for your health !
Like avenamo said, the grand paris express will connect the suburbs to to the city center.
In paris, you don't have only metro and tram but also a huge number of bus line if you want to go in a specific location.
Trams are only good for small-medium city. Here in France, a lot of 200-800K city are creating their tram line, but for a megacity like Paris, it would creat nothing but more congestion !
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Old July 24th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #3008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baboulinet View Post
If you need to go for a 500-1km ride, just use your feet, it's cheap, quick and good for your health !
Like avenamo said, the grand paris express will connect the suburbs to to the city center.
In paris, you don't have only metro and tram but also a huge number of bus line if you want to go in a specific location.
Trams are only good for small-medium city. Here in France, a lot of 200-800K city are creating their tram line, but for a megacity like Paris, it would creat nothing but more congestion !
That is true if you have the time to walk 15-20 minutes. Not if you want to go to school or work. And if every frenchman had this opinion, you would not have a metro station every 200m...
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Old July 24th, 2013, 03:46 PM   #3009
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Old July 24th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #3010
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Old July 24th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #3011
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Old July 24th, 2013, 05:37 PM   #3012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ondro View Post
That is true if you have the time to walk 15-20 minutes. Not if you want to go to school or work. And if every frenchman had this opinion, you would not have a metro station every 200m...
Walking during 600 or 700 meters takes me more 10 minutes than 15-20, and considering that you have to wait your tram at the departure, it's pretty the same...
I agree that proximity transport is necessary for bad weathers, old peoples, pregnant women... But tram is definitively not a good answer for suburbs and short range transport.
Bus is far better : it's more flexible, they can go everywhere unlike tram, if you have a problem for example, all the line must be stop.
Unlike tram, bus don't stop the traffic circulation at road junction.
It's also far less expensive than tram and the capacity of a bus is enough for small suburbs line...

No offense but the Prague tramway network looks like a white elephant to me : 150 km of track for less than 1 million passengers per day when the small Lyon metro, for example, with only 32 km of track carry 700.000 passengers per day...
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Old July 24th, 2013, 10:29 PM   #3013
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Old July 24th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #3014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonFox View Post
This is just how these French forumers operate.

You tell them facts. They block you out and post a few more pictures of the average LD again claiming it to be built by the Gods of art and beauty... Some shit like that.
No please... there is 2 or maybe 3 of those frenchs.. don't put all in the same bucket. but I highly doubt some of these have more than 16 years old. Parisians know that more tramway lines would be better for the city in addition of the metro, people like using it and it's definately an efficient manner of transport. And indeed there is too many cars in the city center and to make the cars pay to access to some areas like in London could make sense.. Those for who it's obvious maybe just don't want to post
PS: The Praha bashing is ashaming
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Old July 24th, 2013, 11:02 PM   #3015
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Originally Posted by Baboulinet View Post
Walking during 600 or 700 meters takes me more 10 minutes than 15-20, and considering that you have to wait your tram at the departure, it's pretty the same...
Yes, it is, i was talking about 1km. A normal person can walk 1km in 15 minutes, it is a standard, in city traffic maybe up to 20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baboulinet View Post
I agree that proximity transport is necessary for bad weathers, old peoples, pregnant women... But tram is definitively not a good answer for suburbs and short range transport.
Bus is far better : it's more flexible, they can go everywhere unlike tram, if you have a problem for example, all the line must be stop.
Unlike tram, bus don't stop the traffic circulation at road junction.
It's also far less expensive than tram and the capacity of a bus is enough for small suburbs line...
A normal tram is 30-40m long. That thing you have in suburbs that is 70m long is not a normal tram. Only hungarians are that crazy to have a tram that is 60m long. With 30m it is as long as two double buses. It does not slow down the traffic more than a bus. It also has mostly it's own lane ao no slowing down the traffic at stops. It is the same as bus but it runs on tracks and runs on electricity. Hence it is more ecological than bus. Plus it has triple-five times the capacity of the longest bus. Also, the driver can't decide that he'll drive like a racer so it is more comfortable for standing people. The speed is the same...
You're right that it is not usable in small suburbs. But look at the cities that are using it - Berlin, Moscow, Vienna... All has many hundreds thousand people in "commie block" suburb. Thats what they are designed for. In small suburbs you use buses to get people to the tram or metro, in those it serves as replacement of a metro. In the center and big suburbs, you use tram to supply the metro, to get people to metro and as an alternative to metro. As for closing the tram line - this is just ridiculous, you don't have the need to close all lines at once, if you have to close, then the same thing as closing metro applies. You just put there replacement buses and let the people to be like sardines in a can for some time. No big deal.
And that buses are more flexible is a fact. No question about it. That's why you plan trams wisely on major streets that are using a lot of people.

Quote:
No offense but the Prague tramway network looks like a white elephant to me : 150 km of track for less than 1 million passengers per day when the small Lyon metro, for example, with only 32 km of track carry 700.000 passengers per day...
Prague metro transports 540 million passengers a year. Paris transports 1500. Paris metro has 214km, Prague 60. By dividing it Paris metro transports 7 million passengers per km, Prague 9 million. If you compare the trains, you have longer trains in prague by almost 3m per car. I assure you it is very effective and so is the tram system.

Somebody once asked what I consider the best transport system. It is the Vienna's. Trams, u-bahn, buses, s-bahn and railjets are in perfect harmony.
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Old July 24th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #3016
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:03 AM   #3018
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Yes, it is, i was talking about 1km. A normal person can walk 1km in 15 minutes, it is a standard, in city traffic maybe up to 20.
No you said between 500 meters and 1 km.

Quote:
A normal tram is 30-40m long. That thing you have in suburbs that is 70m long is not a normal tram. Only hungarians are that crazy to have a tram that is 60m long.
mmm... A normal citadis tram is 30 or 40 meters long... I think those tram you are talking about are citadis dualis who are not tram but tram-train.

Quote:
It does not slow down the traffic more than a bus. It also has mostly it's own lane ao no slowing down the traffic at stops. It is the same as bus but it runs on tracks and runs on electricity. Hence it is more ecological than bus. Plus it has triple-five times the capacity of the longest bus. Also, the driver can't decide that he'll drive like a racer so it is more comfortable for standing people. The speed is the same...
You're right that it is not usable in small suburbs. But look at the cities that are using it - Berlin, Moscow, Vienna... All has many hundreds thousand people in "commie block" suburb. Thats what they are designed for. In small suburbs you use buses to get people to the tram or metro, in those it serves as replacement of a metro. In the center and big suburbs, you use tram to supply the metro, to get people to metro and as an alternative to metro. As for closing the tram line - this is just ridiculous, you don't have the need to close all lines at once, if you have to close, then the same thing as closing metro applies. You just put there replacement buses and let the people to be like sardines in a can for some time. No big deal.
And that buses are more flexible is a fact. No question about it. That's why you plan trams wisely on major streets that are using a lot of people.
A lot of bus run on natural gas in France and are very quiet, trams can increase circulation congestion because you have to make "level crossing" ( these kind of things : http://static.ladepeche.fr/content/m...1105161280.jpg ) at intersection and stop cars, it's not the case of a simple bus.
The city where I live created a new tram system, and there are already some colisions reported, many of them were fatal...
And don't forget that some street are not large enough to make tram lane, especially old streets, a bus can go everywhere.

But to be honnest, I don't think capacity is a current problem in Paris, the true problem is that many suburbs are not connected at all to the metro system.
Anyway, a lot of tram lines are planing in Paris, so I think you will be happy in the next few years !
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:36 AM   #3019
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This is just how these French forumers operate.

You tell them facts. They block you out and post a few more pictures of the average LD again claiming it to be built by the Gods of art and beauty... Some shit like that.
You prefer pics of average leeds & blackpool?
I hate the way you act! i prefer to stop here because we remember "paris vs london" thread
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #3020
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