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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:30 PM   #1
spindrift
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Should drivers in London start paying for the damage, deaths and misery they cause?

Private motoring throughout the UK is massively subsidised, HGVs even more so.

Motorists pay virtually nothing towards the damage and injuries and deaths they cause.

Think about it, one person in a half ton vehicle drives it into London, causing pollution and congestion, then sits clogging the roads up for 8 hours then gets driven home. A complete waste of resources. bringing a motor vehicle into London is essentially a selfish act. But let's look at the economics.


VED revenue in 2004/2005, for example, was £4.7bn (Table 7.15 in DfT 2006, 129) whilst total expenditure on road building and maintenance in England alone in the same period was £6bn (Table 7.13 in DfT 2006, 128). Clearly road maintenance is therefore being subsidised by other forms of taxation in addition to VED, and any driver who argues for a direct link between road use and expenditure is in effect calling for a higher level of road tax.

We must also consider the fact that almost all of the wear and tear done to roads is caused by motor vehicles (Highways Agency 1994), and that a large proportion of the remainder of current road expenditure (for example traffic controls, road widening schemes, town bypasses, and all motorways) is not required by bicycles, pedestrians, horse riders and other non-motorised road users. These are costs which logically should be borne by the motorist alone.


To make a meaningful comparison, if we take into account these additional taxes on motorists, we must also take into account the wider cost of motor vehicles to the economy as a whole.

The economic cost of road accidents, for example, was estimated in 2004 to be some £18bn per year (DfT 2004, 5) and the cost to the British economy of road traffic congestion was estimated to be £20bn, rising to £30bn by 2010 (Goodwin 2004, 2).

In 1998 it was calculated that between 12,000 and 24,000 deaths may be may "brought forward" each year in the UK as a result of air pollution, and that between 14,000 and 24,000 hospital admissions annually result from poor air quality (COMEAP 1998), to which road transport is by far the largest single contributor (FoE 1999, 1), and although the resulting economic cost is not estimated it must be considerable.

In this light, and without even factoring in the less easily established costs of damage to wildlife, noise pollution, contribution to climate change, and end-of-life disposal of motor vehicles, it is already clear that motorists do not currently pay anything like the full cost of motoring.

Law-breaking by motorists massively out-numbers any law-breaking by cyclists.
There are only a million regular cyclist commuters in this country. There are 1.2 million uninsured cars on our roads. 5 million motorists jump red lights EVERY MONTH! AND THAT'S BEFORE YOU EVEN START COUNTING SPEEDING DRIVERS, DRIVERS ON MOBILES, DRUNK OR DRUGGED DRIVERS ETC ETC ETC.
All anyone needs to know about the hypocrisy of motorists complaining about red light jumping cyclists is here:
"Red Alert: Motorists Drive Through 278 Red Traffic Lights a Minute
22nd August 2011
5.2 million drivers have passed through a red traffic signal in the last month
Amber gamblers: Almost one in ten drivers doesn’t slow down for amber lights
New research from Direct Line car insurance reveals that motorists are driving through 12 million red lights each month on British roads – the equivalent of running 278 red lights every minute *.
Over 5.2 million (14 per cent) motorists admit that they drive through an average of two red traffic lights each month. Over 760,000 (two per cent) motorists habitually drive through red lights if they feel the road is clear and there is no traffic.
As a result of their reckless behaviour at red lights, drivers risk clocking up over 36 million penalty points (three for each offence) and fines from fixed penalty notices totalling £721** million every month.
A worryingly high number of motorists, dubbed ‘amber gamblers’, are putting their lives and other road-users at risk by failing to slow down for traffic lights about to turn red. Almost one in ten (nine per cent) motorists don't reduce their speed when approaching amber lights, with four per cent admitting to putting the accelerator to the floor to race through the lights.


Any law-breaking by cyclists is miniscule compared with the illegal behaviour of drivers.
And even when a speeding driver smashes into a cyclist and severely injures him the penalty is laughably weak:



http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...t-8343220.html

A fine that's less than the cost of the bike.


Pathetic.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 10:17 AM   #2
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All private drivers in London should have to pay a large fee (more than the congestion charge) to be allowed to 'use' the roads.

I think the following charges are fair:

Private drivers (driving from within London to within London) = £100 a day

Private drivers (who are London residence and need to drive out of London or in to London to their house) = £5 a trip in/out

Vehicles used for delivery = £0 a trip

Disabled drivers = £0 a day

Taxis = £0 a day
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:47 AM   #3
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Delivery vechicles should still have to pay a fee, plus the congestion charge should easily be £25 per day.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 11:56 AM   #4
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Get rid of on street parking to make way for bike lanes. Increase road tax to pay for underground parking. Simples.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 12:02 PM   #5
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London coped fine with the Olympic Lanes, make them permanent for cyclists and we could end up with a peaceful, safe, unpolluted city like Berlin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20068083

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Old November 23rd, 2012, 06:17 PM   #6
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I say destroy all cars and put those caught driving in the stocks for the day. Cars are the nemesis of the city, I cannot fathom why it's possible to have a car in London.

Perhaps more REALISTICALLY, arterial roads and alike should be removed to deincentivised driving. If we had the road network of the 40's with today's cost of motoring then the number of cars on th road would' be far fewer.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 06:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .Adam View Post
Delivery vechicles should still have to pay a fee, plus the congestion charge should easily be £25 per day.
Yay let's destroy the economy.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 06:49 PM   #8
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A congestion charge would encourage more cycling, making the roads clearer for essential journeys. Almost half of all urban car journeys are less than two miles, a distance easily covered by other means. It is not essential to the economy that fat lazy people drive a car to the corner shop to buy a pint of milk.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:43 PM   #9
ill tonkso
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Or, we could just invest in better road calming measures and push for electric vehicles. People need vehicles, just as they needed Horse and Cart before. The only difference is that we used to have Horse Shit everywhere, we now have Greenhouse Gasses. Move to Electric traction already.

Regarding buses, it's great that the Boris Bus can be converted to clean energy, but we should be building them from the outset with Hydrogen engines. Invest in more tramlines or as an interim measure, let's go Leeds and build Trolly Buses.

In central London, a tiny minority of vehicles on the road are people in cars. We can't get rid of this entirely as some people need that freedom of movement for work (public transport is not ideal for Estate Agents or callout Hairdressers for example, these are just two examples of literally hundreds of professions that require a car), then there are work vans. How many work vans does London need? Likely somehere in the tens of thousands.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:57 PM   #10
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The splendid Downfader points out that:

Quote:
75% of all traffic is for under 5 miles and at single occupancy. 80% of the makeup of road users is private domestic vehicle, not HGV, ambulance or bus.

Is it not selfish of them to clog the roads? I think it is. Every driver I have ever encountered curses the traffic jam yet never puts two and two together.

The point I'm making is that the excuses have to stop.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...hink-tank.html

Cities are clogged with lazy people, often alone in their car, who clog up and pollute when they could easily make other arrangements.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:08 PM   #11
ill tonkso
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Central London however, is not. And outside of the Centre you don't have the range of transport you get central.

Portsmouth City Council have been pushing car-pooling for years, one thing I am genuinely against is Single Occupancy Cars driving into the city for work. Car Pooling is a start, but we need to invest in more transport. Labour shamefully cancelled Portsmouths tram which people were genuinely willing to switch too. I can name three sites where rail stations could be built in Portsmouth to get people onto the trains. In fact two of them had proposals and the other is on 'Station Road' as one was supposed to be built in the first place!!
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ill tonkso View Post
Central London however, is not.
What's the single-occupancy rate and trip distance of central London motor vehicle journeys?
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:13 PM   #13
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Well, if you observe it isn't that great. Discounting delivery vehicles and the like. The vast majority of Central London traffic is Work Vehicles, Buses, Taxi's and the like. Yes, if you stopped the average driver from driving into zone 1 you would see a reduction, but it would be a piss in the ocean.

The idiots in Portsmouth who live and work on the island and drive to work everyday however, have no excuse. We are a compact, flat island. The average person can cycle anywhere on the island within 25 minutes. Anywhere. Experienced cyclists can do it in 15.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:14 PM   #14
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I see. You refuted a point but have no actual evidence.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:15 PM   #15
ill tonkso
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Of piss off. Use your eyes. Out in Zone 4-6 yes, there are loads of cars that don't need to be there. But central? You must be joking.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:41 PM   #16
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I've cycled fifty thousand miles in London, using my eyes, and politely refute your assertion. If you can find a breakdown I'm willing to see it. There are some here:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/abou...ions/1482.aspx

That suggest "Leisure and Personal Business" trips in London are double commuting or business trips.

A London clogged with private vehicles and with one sole occupant is a disastrous waste of resources.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 08:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
The splendid Downfader points out that:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...hink-tank.html

Cities are clogged with lazy people, often alone in their car, who clog up and pollute when they could easily make other arrangements.
i do not curse traffic jams, i quite like them, it gives me a chance to do my make up, change the radio station, people watch.

i should say, i get the tube or the bus far far more often than i ever drive. but if i have something to go to and i'm going to have a drink, then my assistant drives me (and i have quite a nice car so it isn't like i'm sitting in the back of a mini metro).

i was also more than happy to use public transport with a pram - indeed i have made this very point that it's easier than people assume, and people are more helpful than stereotype suggests, and more should do so.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 10:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmictanya View Post
i do not curse traffic jams, i quite like them, it gives me a chance to do my make up, change the radio station, people watch.

i should say, i get the tube or the bus far far more often than i ever drive. but if i have something to go to and i'm going to have a drink, then my assistant drives me (and i have quite a nice car so it isn't like i'm sitting in the back of a mini metro).

i was also more than happy to use public transport with a pram - indeed i have made this very point that it's easier than people assume, and people are more helpful than stereotype suggests, and more should do so.
Something not right about cosmctanya, she talks about her assistant that drives her car (unusual of an assistant). Then on her profile she's started two conflicts with different members (unusual for a female) and from her other posts the suggestion is she's from Birmingham but taking the tube in London, with a pram. I'm sure all can be explained way but doesn't add up for me.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 10:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowater View Post
Something not right about cosmctanya, she talks about her assistant that drives her car (unusual of an assistant). Then on her profile she's started two conflicts with different members (unusual for a female) and from her other posts the suggestion is she's from Birmingham but taking the tube in London, with a pram. I'm sure all can be explained way but doesn't add up for me.
what on earth are you talking about? at no time have i ever said anything about birmingham - merely expressed a liking for it despite not knowing it well - can you point out where i've said i'm from birmingham...

i have not had two conflicts* - i had one conflict with an israeli guy who refused to allow me the decency of deciding for myself that i don't want my sons circumcised, and told me i was stuck in the dark ages for not submitting them to the surgeons knife to have it whipped off. you will see he was banned.

i did not claim to have a driver. i have a help/babysitter/assistant/au pair, who is insured to drive my car - and does so if i've been drinking - which is not unusual for a general assistant/childminder.

anything else you want to know?

i really object quite strongly to being called a liar. not least by someone who started a thread on how the barbican is going to be pulled down. if you have 'suspicions' you could've pm'd me - and i'll be happy to give you my telephone number.

*although i'm quite prepared to have two.

edit - i'd like you to address this on the same public forum you brought it up on, and point out where i ever said i'd done anything other than spent a few hours in birmingham. that done, i will be more than happy to give you my contact telephone number so you can address your 'suspicions' to me properly, should you require.

Last edited by cosmictanya; November 23rd, 2012 at 10:31 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 10:42 PM   #20
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Less telling people to piss off and personal spats, more stuff about buying shoes for working girls plz. Or, you know, the actual topic.
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