daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Projects and Construction > London Metro Area

London Metro Area London Calling...



Reply

 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old November 26th, 2012, 08:28 PM   #61
ill tonkso
Portsmouths Finest, Maybe
 
ill tonkso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: A slab of Portsmouth with just a dash of Spalding
Posts: 15,096
Likes (Received): 780

On average... what about cheeky buggers like me? I don't even have a drivers licence.
ill tonkso está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old November 26th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #62
JimB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,664
Likes (Received): 734

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Compared to Berlin?

Let’s look at a selection of main roads, mostly in central London.

Uxbridge Road -

You're taking liberties if you're trying to argue that London's streets are very wide on the basis of that picture.

What you see there isn't Uxbridge Road. It is the junction of Shepherds Bush Green with Shepherds Bush roundabout. Shepherds Bush Green is triangular shaped and its two longest sides, I would guess, are in the region of 300 yards long. So it's not a good example for your purposes. - especially since there are cycle lanes through the park / green itself.

Uxbridge Road is a standard, two lane road (one heading east, one heading west).
JimB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2012, 09:02 PM   #63
cnapan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 123

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Once again, that isn't going to happen, the population of London is increasing and traffic and congestion forecasts are grim.
Again, try bringing that point up in a debate about caps on immigration. Some people want to double the population of the capital, because they think it'll have huge benefits.

I see the opposite. When everyone clears off for the summer holidays, the city is absolutely brilliant - low congestion, fewer people running around in a stressful huff.

Can't we just try it for a couple of decades and see if we're less or more unhappy with fewer people around? Just imagine. People might one day be able to afford a decent place to live in London!

One can but dream!
cnapan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #64
spindrift
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 274

Take a look Jim:

http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress...dth-available/

Perhaps what people should be asked should include:
1. Would you like your children to be able to get around on their own instead of via the parental taxi?

2. Would you like to save money by only running one car?

3. Would you like to get fitter without spending the time & money on the gym?

and so on.

Measures such as one-way streets for cars, with two-way cycle lanes -



Restricted access for motor vehicles -




Filtered permeability -



Or indeed roads that are have become cycle paths, in entirety -

spindrift está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #65
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 5,436
Likes (Received): 292

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
And you conveniently ignore the fact just how much space is being wasted on pointless traffic islands. Spindrifts photos illustrate this perfectly.
Only pointless in a handful of instances, for example Victoria Street where the crossings aren't actually staggered, but providing continuous bus lanes is a higher priority there. There's a church on the island on the Strand behind the photographer. Where there is a staggered crossing the island needs to be at least 3 metres wide to be safe.

It's not as though the Berlin picture I posted doesn't have islands either.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #66
JimB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,664
Likes (Received): 734

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Take a look Jim:

http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress...dth-available/

Perhaps what people should be asked should include:
1. Would you like your children to be able to get around on their own instead of via the parental taxi?

2. Would you like to save money by only running one car?

3. Would you like to get fitter without spending the time & money on the gym?

and so on.

Measures such as one-way streets for cars, with two-way cycle lanes
Not quite sure why you've addressed this post to me. If it was supposed to be a response to my post, it's a complete non sequitur, I'm afraid.

My post was concerned with nothing more than pointing out that you were trying to construct an argument about how wide London's roads are by claiming, among other examples, that a brief stretch of road leading off Shepherds Bush Green was a long, arterial road.

Your other arguments might be perfectly valid and highly compelling but they aren't relevant to my post.
JimB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 12:41 AM   #67
El_Greco
Flâneur Extraordinaire
 
El_Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London
Posts: 17,691
Likes (Received): 1744

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT

Only pointless in a handful of instances, for example Victoria Street where the crossings aren't actually staggered, but providing continuous bus lanes is a higher priority there. There's a church on the island on the Strand behind the photographer. Where there is a staggered crossing the island needs to be at least 3 metres wide to be safe.

It's not as though the Berlin picture I posted doesn't have islands either.
No, pointless everywhere and everytime. They serve no purpose whatsoever other than ruin the look of the urban realm and waste precious space.
__________________
My Photos : Bergen|Brussels|Fes|Lisbon|London|Madrid|Naples|Paris|Rome|Rotterdam

Last edited by El_Greco; November 27th, 2012 at 12:57 AM.
El_Greco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 12:41 AM   #68
spindrift
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB View Post

My post was concerned with nothing more than pointing out that you were trying to construct an argument about how wide London's roads are by claiming, among other examples, that a brief stretch of road leading off Shepherds Bush Green was a long, arterial road.
.
Not really, lots of London roads could easily take the changes to infrastructure I mentioned. Triumphantly pointing out that some roads can't doesn't substantially change the point.
spindrift está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 12:48 AM   #69
JimB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,664
Likes (Received): 734

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
Not really, lots of London roads could easily take the changes to infrastructure I mentioned. Triumphantly pointing out that some roads can't doesn't substantially change the point.
Another non sequitur.

What's going on, spindrift? Surely I don't have to explain my every post to you? Come on, fella! Just think about it, eh?

Once again, while your broader points might or might not have merit, my post was concerned with nothing more than pointing out that you were trying to construct an argument, in part, on the basis of a falsely labelled photograph.
JimB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #70
spindrift
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 274

Yes, an inaccurately captioned photo doesn't prove or disprove anything. The point is that the fallacy that London's roads are too narrow to accommodate changes to layout changes perpetuates in planning decisions.

It can be done, the example of Berlin is a good one, similar levels of car ownership yet Berlin cycling rates beat London hands down, and the courtesy afforded cyclists is astonishing, cars will overtake to your left when you're on a bike, the vehicle is indicating right, and will then wait for the cyclist! It's amazing, I even waited a few times because I'm used to numpty London drivers! It's wonderfully pleasant and civilised and we have the space to do it, we have the impetus to do it with cycling rates doubling in the last ten years (and the accident rate halving) but we lack the political will because our mayor is a penis.
spindrift está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 12:57 AM   #71
spindrift
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 274



That's what we have in London. Seriously, someone got paid to design that.
spindrift está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 08:08 AM   #72
cnapan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 123

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post


That's what we have in London. Seriously, someone got paid to design that.
'Cycle lanes' are to councils what wind turbines often are. A placebo 'tick' in a box which makes them feel they've saved the planet, whilst being eff all use.

This lot below is quite funny (well sad really). The people in charge of our built environment aren't just responsible for pig-ugly streetscapes. Someone actually thought this was a good idea:

Not just stupid, but dangerous.

More here:



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.me...anuary2009.htm


http://www.asyf99.dsl.pipex.com/croy...cle_lanes.html


This metro article points out a 'dumb' cycle lane, explaining that workmen put a cycle lane down the *middle* of a road because parked cars stopped them putting it on the side! Well, yes, in truth, putting the cycle lane at the side is dumb then too! Cycles can't travel through cars, so actually the middle of the road was the only place for it to go, not that there was any point to painting the sign as it's clearly a bit of the road that cars have to use!

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/898399-c...d-an-epic-fail
cnapan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 09:46 AM   #73
PadArch
Registered User
 
PadArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 948
Likes (Received): 40

Cycle lanes are only pointless and stupid if badly implemented like they are in London. There is absolutely no good reason why London could not have cycle lanes like Amsterdam and become the first cycle friendly mega city in the world.
PadArch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #74
GEwinnen
Rekordvizemeister
 
GEwinnen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gelsenkirchen
Posts: 1,419
Likes (Received): 1067

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Which ones? If you are going to compare to Berlin, then give me a road that is wide enough to fit 1 uninterrupted cycle lane, 1 uninterrupted bus lane, 2 lanes for general traffic in each direction for at least 3 miles.
btw, not all commie buildings in East Berlin were ugly! I like the wedding cake stile on KMA and FA in East Berlin

I can't remember a boulevard like Karl-Marx Alle/Frankfurter Allee in London,
89 m wide, enough space for sidewalks, bike lanes and an underground line in the middle of the street.




You can't compare the population density of Berlin and London: Berlin 10,000/sqm - London 14,000/ sqm
GEwinnen está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #75
spindrift
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 274

The population density of Amsterdam is similar to London's.

Quote:
The UK is densely populated similarly to that of NL and London is as well almost exactly as densely populated as Ansterdam.

In 2008 the average number of people per square kilometre in Britain was 253, rising to 395 in England.

Latest figures from Holland show that its population density was 395 a square kilometre in 2002 and 393 in 2005.

The densest area of population in NL is the region known as "Randstad Holland” in the west of the country, which comprises Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht, with an average of 1,000 people per square kilometer.

If the Dutch can make this transformation why can't the British?

Are we British less intelligent than the Dutch? Or are they less capable than the Danes?

The fact is that it would be extraordinarily easy to transform London's infrastructure to accommodate cycling and cycling lanes to that experienced in Denmark or NL.

It could practically be done overnight if the political will were there.
http://road.cc/content/news/62426-ta...rhighway-looks
spindrift está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #76
Core Rising
Ampersands & What
 
Core Rising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London/ Nottingham
Posts: 5,417

Population of Amsterdam: 820000

Population of London: 8.2 million
Core Rising no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #77
Loathing
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,141
Likes (Received): 369

Quote:
Originally Posted by PadArch View Post
There is absolutely no good reason why London could not have cycle lanes like Amsterdam and become the first cycle friendly mega city in the world.
Beijing is a mega city by all accounts and is extremely cycle-friendly. Shanghai is cycle-friendly in the areas where it's possible; Tokyo's not bad (not to mention other Japanese cities).
Loathing no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #78
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 5,436
Likes (Received): 292

The biggest problem with cycles is bus stops. At busy ones bikes and buses blocking each others' paths can be very frustrating and quite dangerous, and given the frequency of bus stops (usually no more than every 400 metres) this alone could render cycle lanes almost useless. What you really need is some buffer between traffic lanes and the cycle lane and bus shelters put on this said buffer, but there are extremely few places where there is enough width for this.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #79
Spikespiegel
Used Registrant
 
Spikespiegel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 409
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
The biggest problem with cycles is bus stops. At busy ones bikes and buses blocking each others' paths can be very frustrating and quite dangerous, and given the frequency of bus stops (usually no more than every 400 metres) this alone could render cycle lanes almost useless. What you really need is some buffer between traffic lanes and the cycle lane and bus shelters put on this said buffer, but there are extremely few places where there is enough width for this.
This is how you deal with that in Copenhagen (image is from copenhagenize.com):
image hosted on flickr

Bus lane with bus stop, then a wide buffer and the cycle lane that goes around it on the inside.

Fomerly, the bus lane was another lane for normal traffic and the buffer itself was a bus stop.
Spikespiegel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2012, 11:02 PM   #80
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 5,436
Likes (Received): 292

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikespiegel View Post
This is how you deal with that in Copenhagen (image is from copenhagenize.com):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5254/...4db4580780.jpg
Bus lane with bus stop, then a wide buffer and the cycle lane that goes around it on the inside.
And the elephant in the room? Road width, of which on London's roads there is usually none. In this picture the cycle lane and the bus stop island take up 5 metres - most pavements manage half that, so unless one embarks on mass demolition of road-side buildings there is very little chance of these things adopted in London.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu