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Old November 30th, 2012, 04:06 PM   #21
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there is just absolutely no need for everyone to have a garden. most people don't have the time and money to maintain them to an attractive standard anyway. it is totally wasteful and damaging to our cities - only london because of size, and a few historic exceptions like brighton & edinburgh haven't decimated their cores. everywhere else has been ruined by expanding suburbs with bad transport and city centres given over to malls, council estates, student flats, and only recently more diverse dwellings.

children play happily in parks all over the world, there is nothing special in the dna of british children that require them all to have access to their own little postage stamp of grass by the back door. i would like to see nearly all suburban development stopped. only higher end houses bought by people with the resources & desire to make attractive gardens should be built from now on - and even then only sparingly.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #22
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Why is immigration STILL higher than our job growth?
I think you really need to be asking, why are companies needing to recruit skills from other countries?

You are not stupid to completely not understand the meaning of "economic migration".
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Old November 30th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #23
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Flats are fine. I have nothing against flats. People who like living in flats should have flats available for them to live in.

Houses are also fine. They don't have to be unsustainable and they can be based around a public transport solution. There are no arguments based on environmental, public transport or land shortage that can be made against houses. I live in a house with a garden and travel to work every day by train without any problems. It took the same amount of time to get to work by tube from Putney for instance than it does to get to work by rail from Epsom. A conurbation based around a railway station is a tried and tested way of connecting people up and is no different in terms of logistics to part of an urban core packed around a tube station. It purely comes down to a matter of taste and what I am reading here is that the people that find cities more appealing to them personally would like everyone to live in cities.

I find it odd that pure lovers of urbanity who have little interest in or understanding of rural existence are so fixated on protecting the rural hinterland. New housing developments can actually be very nice if done well and are a far cry from the crappy barrat boxes we had inflicted on us. Just like the urban is moving on from the tower block the suburbs are moving on from the bland housing estate (slowly).
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Old November 30th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #24
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Flats are fine. I have nothing against flats. People who like living in flats should have flats available for them to live in.

Houses are also fine. They don't have to be unsustainable and they can be based around a public transport solution. There are no arguments based on environmental, public transport or land shortage that can be made against houses. I live in a house with a garden and travel to work every day by train without any problems. It took the same amount of time to get to work by tube from Putney for instance than it does to get to work by rail from Epsom. A town based around a railway station is a tried and tested way of connecting people up and is no different in terms of logistics to part of an urban core packed around a tube station. It purely comes down to a matter of taste and what I am reading here is that the people that find cities more appealing to them personally would like everyone to live in cities.

I find it odd that pure lovers of urbanity who have little interest in or understanding of rural existence are so fixated on protecting the rural hinterland. New housing developments can actually be very nice if done well and are a far cry from the crappy barrat boxes we had inflicted on us. Just like the urban is moving on from the tower block the suburbs are moving on from the bland housing estate (slowly).
not me dear!. but it should not be our focus anymore. we did it, and it didn't work very well. there are enough suburbs and small to middle sized towns existing to cater for people who enjoy it. no more should be built. and absolutely zero social housing should be in the form of houses with small private gardens.

many british suburbs are largely bland, unattractive & unsustainable. abigails party is satire for good reason

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Old November 30th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #25
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because flats are so 19th Century European Bohemia which reminds us of the EU and then the Schengen Agreement and.... before you know it immigration! Must ignore that the UK did its 100% rural to urban migration thing some 100 years ago. Just keep reading This England magazine and voting UKIP.
Can we do this without insulting people?

As I say, there is nothing wrong with people aspiring for houses with gardens. A lot of terraced stock can achieve a high density. Portsmouth is primarily terraces with gardens yet manages to achieve the highest overal population density in the UK. Brighton is similar and not far behind.

The reason I bought immigration into the discussion is because we have a housing shortage. Why do we allow the population to rise at the rate it is when we can't accomadate those already in the UK? It's simple math. If a bus turns up with no seats or standing room left, then those at the Bus stop can't get on. Inconvenient but true.

The reason why I bought population stabalisation into the discussion is because we have both a housing shortage and finite resources. People need to get used to having less kids, like 2 per family to stabalise the population. Sounds inhuman and fascist, but again true. We can't sustain this population growth for much longer (and when I say 'we', I mean the human race as a whole).

Regarding gardens, people ARE willing to use them to grow food, and more do. Home grown food is growing fast too (pun not intended). Ever wondered why Allotments accross now have huge waiting lists? From a sustainabilty view, home-grown food is surely better than relying on goods delivered to your local supermarket on the back of a lorry?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #26
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I think you really need to be asking, why are companies needing to recruit skills from other countries?

You are not stupid to completely not understand the meaning of "economic migration".
I think you need to ask why 25% of young people in the UK are unemployed when the vast majority of them are actively seeking work.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ill tonkso View Post
Can we do this without insulting people?

As I say, there is nothing wrong with people aspiring for houses with gardens. A lot of terraced stock can achieve a high density. Portsmouth is primarily terraces with gardens yet manages to achieve the highest overal population density in the UK. Brighton is similar and not far behind.

The reason I bought immigration into the discussion is because we have a housing shortage. Why do we allow the population to rise at the rate it is when we can't accomadate those already in the UK? It's simple math. If a bus turns up with no seats or standing room left, then those at the Bus stop can't get on. Inconvenient but true.

The reason why I bought population stabalisation into the discussion is because we have both a housing shortage and finite resources. People need to get used to having less kids, like 2 per family to stabalise the population. Sounds inhuman and fascist, but again true. We can't sustain this population growth for much longer (and when I say 'we', I mean the human race as a whole).

Regarding gardens, people ARE willing to use them to grow food, and more do. Home grown food is growing fast too (pun not intended). Ever wondered why Allotments accross now have huge waiting lists? From a sustainabilty view, home-grown food is surely better than relying on goods delivered to your local supermarket on the back of a lorry?
You talk about unsustainability, but then bring up allotments and houses with gardens! Some hipster growing carrots on the roof of his loft wont solve food shortages or even have a minimal impact on food prices. Its just a hobby and nothing more.

Then you talk about people needing to get used to "having less kids", how about people needing to get used to living high? Makes more sense, no? In any case much of the World blames the West for the current problems, so lecturing them about sustainability is a bit hypocritical.

This is Globalised World that we are living in, so building a wall is not an option. Isolation and protectionism is the last thing we need. Housing shortage? Rising population? How about this revolutionary idea - build more, bigger and higher homes?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #28
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I find it odd that pure lovers of urbanity who have little interest in or understanding of rural existence
Rural existence? Are you having a laugh? We are an urban population. I dont care if a rural eco-settlement exists to try and be self-contained out of personal ambition, but to pretend that a cottage in a village is rural is laughable.

Everything is urban. Villages and even isolated cottages are extensions of the urban. We are an urban people.

The numbers of protected villages and envious 2nd home owners surrounded by areas of outstanding beauty Im not worried that there will be destruction of that particular fetish and yes I from time to time enjoy its charm too, but I know what it really is at least.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ill tonkso View Post
If a bus turns up with no seats or standing room left, then those at the Bus stop can't get on. Inconvenient but true.
Might have got on had it been a bendy.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #30
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Can we do this without insulting people?
You mean making a joke about the joke that is the constantly banging on about immigration and numbers of humans on the planet on this forum? Yeah it is insulting.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #31
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You talk about unsustainability, but then bring up allotments and houses with gardens! Some hipster growing carrots on the roof of his loft wont solve food shortages or even have a minimal impact on food prices. Its just a hobby and nothing more.

Then you talk about people needing to get used to "having less kids", how about people needing to get used to living high? Makes more sense, no? In any case much of the World blames the West for the current problems, so lecturing them about sustainability is a bit hypocritical.

This is Globalised World that we are living in, so building a wall is not an option. Isolation and protectionism is the last thing we need. Housing shortage? Rising population? How about this revolutionary idea - build more, bigger and higher homes?
Growing food in the city can only be a positive. As I said, how does Portsmouth manage to be the most densely populated city in the UK if it is primarily terraces with gardens? Even when I lived in my first flat it had a communal garden where we could grow things. My friend saves a bomb by growing his own veg, my dad grows a lot of his own veg (it adds up) and all that food growing acts as a great carbon sink. Houses with gardens do not necessarily mean lower density.

Then it comes to the fundemental problem, people in the UK prefer houses. Unless you want to force them into flats this is not going to change.

I can't see how home grown food is anything but sustainable. It's how things used to be done under the resource based economies of old and communities can set up a local co-operative. Portsmouth has one, 'The Southsea Greenhouse'. People grow food in their gardens, consume what they need and sell the rest from a beach hut by South Parade Pier. It has been a huge success.

Here's the website. http://southseagreenhouse.co.uk/

Edit: Just realised they aren't at the Beach Hut anymore. It has outgrown those premises.... testement to the success of the model?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #32
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You mean making a joke about the joke that is the constantly banging on about immigration and numbers of humans on the planet on this forum? Yeah it is insulting.
And you don't agree that the population of earth is growing at an unsustainable rate? Or do you believe we can keep growing forever?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #33
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Growing food in the city can only be a positive.
It is and will remain a minority sport. Most dont have time or will to do that. And youd need helluva lot of gardens to make impact on pollution. Tree lined streets or a handful of large parks would be much better. Better still would be to do away with our hopeless addiction to fossil fuels.

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As I said, how does Portsmouth manage to be the most densely populated city in the UK if it is primarily terraces with gardens?
Probably because these terraces have been divided and subdivided into flats? Replace them with Continental style apartment blocks and you can house even more people in the same area.

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Then it comes to the fundemental problem, people in the UK prefer houses. Unless you want to force them into flats this is not going to change.
But you want the rest of the World to change its lifestyle, because of "finite resources"? Why should they change if the West isnt prepared to change?

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People grow food in their gardens, consume what they need and sell the rest from a beach hut by South Parade Pier. It has been a huge sucess.
Yeah selling vegetables in a beach hut is a new big thing and will fundamentally change Global economy and of course solve the World hunger! Im not against it per se, but its not going to make much of an impact.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #34
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It is and will remain a minority sport. Most dont have time or will to do that. And youd need helluva lot of gardens to make impact on pollution. Tree lined streets or a handful of large parks would be much better.
Actually, you would be surprised how many do this.
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Probably because these terraces have been divided and subdivided into flats? Replace them with Continental style apartment blocks and you can house even more people in the same area.
In Southsea, this is evident in some pockets. On the whole though, these are not subdivided flats. These are terraced houses that remain as houses. The vast majority are as they were built.
Quote:

But you want the rest of the World to change its lifestyle, because of "finite resources"? Why should they change if the West isnt prepared to change?
I am refering to the whole world, where did I say the West was not included? There are familes in Britian who have 4 or 5 kids too.
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Fantastic plan to solve World hunger! Im not against it per se, but its a gimmick.
I never said it was a way to solve world hunger, it is however a great way to reduce the amount we transport by road. It is taking off all over the country and with rising food prices, more and more people are starting to do so. It's actually quite 'vogue' to grow your own veg now.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #35
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And you don't agree that the population of earth is growing at an unsustainable rate? Or do you believe we can keep growing forever?
Hysterical nonsense.

If we used our land more wisely 6.9 billion people could live in a city as large as Texas with the population density of New York. Of course if everyone of those people were to be accommodated in houses with garden then the city would probably be the size of South America.



Many more people could live in this country, look at how Japan manages it for example. We could house an extra 20 million people in the UK by making more efficient use of our existing town and cities. And seeing as how the population of this country is forecast to keep growing to become the largest in Europe, and we mostly agree that the countryside should be preserved, we'd better get on with finding solutions about how all these people can be housed.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #36
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And how do we feed them all? How do we provide enough resources to produce good for them all? How do we provide enough clean water for them all? Deal with their waste?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:09 PM   #37
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I think you need to ask why 25% of young people in the UK are unemployed when the vast majority of them are actively seeking work.
Simply cities generate new types of jobs they have always done as the birth place of specialisation. They do it because they are places where people meet and share ideas at the most intense scale. Why would dismantling this help anyone?

How about all that wasted energy refusing developments in this city particularly for obscure reasons like being able to see it therefore making the city more expensive to live and to do work in or to set up a new business unit?

How about the historical lack of investment in real infrastructure over the past 4 decades trying to get the ridiculously spread out city (yes it virtually covers the whole South East) together as a working economic unit while being gradually outclassed by other cities?

How about The other reason is people are doing better at exams in other parts of the world. The 20 year old in the Evening Standard on their expose of youth unemployment in London was holding out to be a Graphics Designer even though he had come out of school with 4 GCSEs.

What do you do? Leave the EU to give him a job in Graphics Design?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #38
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Actually, you would be surprised how many do this.
Ok how many of the UKs population of 62 million do this?

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On the whole though, these are not subdivided flats.
How do you know? Nevertheless an apartment block can house far more people. And as you say the population is rising.

Quote:
I am refering to the whole world, where did I say the West was not included? There are familes in Britian who have 4 or 5 kids too.
You just said that people prefer to live in houses instead of flats and you cant force them into flats. Why should people elsewhere do as you wish?

Quote:
I never said it was a way to solve world hunger, it is however a great way to reduce the amount we transport by road. It is taking off all over the country and with rising food prices, more and more people are starting to do so. It's actually quite 'vogue' to grow your own veg now.
Exactly its a fad, that doesnt even begin to address the bigger issues. Selling vegetables in a beach hut will not reverse the rise in food prices or clear the roads of lorries. What will is making more efficient use of available land and consuming less. West throws away ridiculous amounts of perfectly fine food, whereas in many parts of the World people have nothing.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #39
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And how do we feed them all? How do we provide enough resources to produce good for them all? How do we provide enough clean water for them all? Deal with their waste?
Look at how much more land is taken up if the world's population were to be housed in a single city with the density of Houston.

Could all the extra land that such a city with the density of Houston requires be put to be more productive use to sustain a higher population, like food production perhaps? What about the other massive economies of efficiency that could be achieved with more people in closer proximity to each other? Do you think a city the size of Texas would be more sustainable than a city that covers half the US, but with the same population?
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #40
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Actually, you would be surprised how many do this.

In Southsea, this is evident in some pockets. On the whole though, these are not subdivided flats. These are terraced houses that remain as houses. The vast majority are as they were built.

I am refering to the whole world, where did I say the West was not included? There are familes in Britian who have 4 or 5 kids too.


I never said it was a way to solve world hunger, it is however a great way to reduce the amount we transport by road. It is taking off all over the country and with rising food prices, more and more people are starting to do so. It's actually quite 'vogue' to grow your own veg now.
i think el greco's very reasonable point was not about the size of british families, but your assertion that there was an unchangeable 'fundamental' mindset that british people 'prefer' houses with gardens and should continue having them provided.

he thinks they shouldn't. and so do i. the generation of british people who got suburban houses with gardens for decent prices is over. there is no point fighting it. those who want it should pay accordingly for those already existing. no new semi detached/garden developments on the scale of 30s - 60s suburbs should be taking place.
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