The Gardiner - What's Next?

[MattToronto]

Interesting article in CBC which brings up the inherent issues with the Gardiner. With $500 million for 10 years, what options do we have?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...not-spent.html

[Taller, Better]

WOW. From that article:
"In 2008 and 2009 nearly $40 million was budgeted, but evidently only $12 million was actually spent to fix the often problematic expressway".

One can only wonder where that money went.
I tell you, Torontonians would miss the Gardiner if the bulldoze it. They would realise it the first blackened approach downtown through an eerily lit tunnel.
Soon it would dawn upon them how spectacular that drive was in from the airport.

[Diesel_Power]

The Gardiner doesn't look bad until your are on it stuck in traffic. It's then when you really have time to study it.

The concrete around the guard rails is crumbling and there are so many cracks in the road itself. The whole thing looks like it's held together by glue and popsicle sticks.

Tunneling the Gardiner will not cost as much as the "Big Dig". The Big dig was a much bigger, complex project that involved a much more complex network of roads buried underneath the Boston's downtown core, tunneling roads under water, building a highway all the way to the city's airport. All we're doing with the Gardiner is burying a straight road from Dufferin to Cherry st.

[Taller, Better]

Clearly it is money that we don't have, or if we did borrow it we should use for other things than vanity projects like removing the Gardiner. Yes it needs repair but no we shouldn't bulldoze it.

[Diesel_Power]

Does the Gardiner even meet the MTO's highway safety standards?

[cruzin4u]

I always thought a coat of paint would probably help. What if the concrete pillars were painted white or another colour and LED uplighting was installed so that during the evenings it would be lit up and look somewhat pretty.

Something along the lines of this...from the Big I in Albuquerque, NM

[skyscraper03]

Originally Posted by cruzin4u

I always thought a coat of paint would probably help. What if the concrete pillars were painted white or another colour and LED uplighting was installed so that during the evenings it would be lit up and look somewhat pretty.

Something along the lines of this...from the Big I in Albuquerque, NM

So there is a beast that lives/ stays just outside of your house all the time, which could give you a fatal wound one day. But you'd rather choose to decorate/ clothe/ dye the beast (in some way) so that it just doesn't look like it's as scary as it really is, and also feed the animal over and over so that it probably won't be hungry and hurt you?

I would say just get rid of the beast or send it out of your sight (to a zoo or somewhere) even if it initially costs a little.
And, I would also like to say
Yes, we can!

Study the Big Dig project in Boston and learn from its success and failure, and also the history of Cheonggyecheon in Seoul if you'd like(not Gangnam style, but the Gardiner style highway which was aging horror -> an award-winning super friendly & nice hybrid public space in downtown Seoul).

[Taller, Better]

And after you are finished studying those other projects, study a way to come up with the multi billion dollars required for that kind of project. Unlike the governments of the USA and of Korea, our Federal Government is NOT going to pay for a vanity project in Toronto to bury the Gardiner. I realise this is the internet and people are not used to having to think of the cost of fantasies but there you have it.

[saiho]

Originally Posted by skyscraper03

So there is a beast that lives just outside of your house all the time, which could give you a fatal wound one day. But you'd rather choose to decorate/ clothe/ dye the beast (in some way) so that it just doesn't look like it's as scary as it really is, and also feed the animal over and over so that it probably won't be hungry and hurt you?

I would say just get rid of the beast or send it out of your sight (to a zoo or somewhere) even if it costs a little.
And, I would also like to say
Yes, we can!

Study the Big Dig project in Boston and learn from its success and failure, and also the history of Cheonggyecheon in Seoul if you'd like(not Gangnam style, but the Gardiner style highway which was aging horror -> an award-winning super friendly & nice hybrid public space in downtown Seoul).

The big dig was expensive and can only be done with help and funding from all 3 levels of government. That almost never happens in Toronto the feds rarely contribute to infrastructural projects in the GTA. Also Toronto and Ontario lack the money and will to go though with the project without federal support, unlike for subway/LRT expansion.

Geting rid of the Gardiner as a whole and as a commuter route is a bad idea; it is not as simple as Seoul makes it to be. Firstly, Cheonggyecheon is sandwiched and paralleled by 2 subway lines and has a BRT corridor running though it. Secondly, the expressway is not an important regional route it just ends in Downtown Seoul and carries no thru traffic. Thirdly, Seoul's public transit has a +50% modal share in the entire metro region, much more if the destination is downtown. So basically that expressway is expendable. Toronto is the complete opposite. The Gardener has no nearby parallel rapid transit routes, is an important regional thru route, and lastly the GTA's public transport usage hovers around 15%. This expressway is really important.

[skyscraper03]

Urrrrrrr....Hmmmmmmmm....
Long story short, Canada's political system needs some serious amendment for greater efficiency...eh?

- inability to underground a short section (just about 1~3 km) of aging Gardiner Expressway in the most important/ rich city in Canada...urrr
- inability to step in to stop the Quebec Francophones from oppressively (and stupidly) cracking down on (one of) the national language(s) used by more than 60% of pop. (as mother tongue), 80%(at home), 95%(ability to speak and read)....urrrr
- inability to make a national strategic project happen, like when Canada needs to develop and sell oil in Alberta for a fortune in the century of energy war for Alberta and all Canada... It can't build a simple pipeline to the Pacific Ocean (with a simple & reasonable condition that responsibly protect the nature of British Columbia)...?

Politics, in this magnificently glorious country, right perfect and superior... with only 35mil population(which also is a poor result of their politics in the history)...

No offence, and I'm super pro-democracy, but sometimes think that Canada is not a perfect country at all, in terms of efficiency for prosperity, and it might have no absolute right to make finger pointing judgements on the terrible China's politics and the Chinese Communist Party who builds high-speed railway system over the entire continent like Oh yeah we can!

Urrr... sorry I still love Canada and have "hopes" for it.
I know there are economic/ political aspects other than architectural or urban design ones, and these matters are more complicated than one might ever imagine (especially because it's happening in Canada)..

But still, the truth is that the one makes impossible things possible is the one will be called as a hero in the future by its people. Most ordinary people with ordinary thoughts and who stay within limited boundaries of ordinary education they received just say "oh no we can't cuz it's..." when they face a difficulty or something seemingly impossible..

My last words here in this thread,
God bless Toronto and Canada.

[monkeyronin]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

And after you are finished studying those other projects, study a way to come up with the multi billion dollars required for that kind of project. Unlike the governments of the USA and of Korea, our Federal Government is NOT going to pay for a vanity project in Toronto to bury the Gardiner. I realise this is the internet and people are not used to having to think of the cost of fantasies but there you have it.

Well the only other alternative is to spend half a billion dollars on repairs. Using this opportunity to bury it may be the most expedient option.

Originally Posted by saiho

The Gardener has no nearby parallel rapid transit routes, is an important regional thru route, and lastly the GTA's public transport usage hovers around 15%. This expressway is really important.

Where are you getting that figure? As of the 2006 census it was 22% (higher now, undoubtedly) plus 7% that walk/bike/etc. However, for trips terminating downtown, most are using transit.

Also, the Gardiner runs parallel to the Lakeshore GO line, and hopefully the DRL in the not-too-distant future. And it's not a regional through route by any means, its purpose is to get people downtown. Very few would take the Gardiner + DVP through Toronto when they could take the 401 + 427.

[Diesel_Power]

Originally Posted by saiho

The Gardener has no nearby parallel rapid transit routes

You never noticed the GO trains whizzing by the Gardiner?

[saiho]

Originally Posted by skyscraper03

Urrrrrrr....Hmmmmmmmm....
Long story short, Canada's political system needs some serious amendment for greater efficiency...eh?

- inability to underground a short section (just about 1~3 km) of aging Gardiner Expressway in the most important/ rich city in Canada...urrr
- inability to step in to stop the Quebec Francophones from oppressively (and stupidly) cracking down on (one of) the national language(s) used by more than 60% of pop. (as mother tongue), 80%(at home), 95%(ability to speak and read)....urrrr
- inability to make a national strategic project happen, like when Canada needs to develop and sell oil in Alberta for a fortune in the century of energy war for Alberta and all Canada... It can't build a simple pipeline to the Pacific Ocean (with a simple & reasonable condition that responsibly protect the nature of British Columbia)...?

Politics, in this magnificently glorious country, right perfect and superior... with only 35mil population(which also is a poor result of their politics in the history)...

No offence, and I'm super pro-democracy, but sometimes think that Canada is not a perfect country at all, in terms of efficiency for prosperity, and it might have no absolute right to make finger pointing judgements on the terrible China's politics and the Chinese Communist Party who builds high-speed railway system over the entire continent like Oh yeah we can!

Urrr... sorry I still love Canada and have "hopes" for it.
I know there are economic/ political aspects other than architectural or urban design ones, and these matters are more complicated than one might ever imagine (especially because it's happening in Canada)..

But still, the truth is that the one makes impossible things possible is the one will be called as a hero in the future by its people. Most ordinary people with ordinary thoughts and who stay within limited boundaries of ordinary education they received just say "oh no we can't cuz it's..." when they face a difficulty or something seemingly impossible..

My last words here in this thread,
God bless Toronto and Canada.

Well ya I like China's infrastructure strategy as much as the next Skyscrapercity Forumer....
but
Is it wise to get rid of infrastructure when Toronto's population and economy is growing (rather quickly too). Infrastructure China is expanding rapidly to increase capacity a big dig type project or just tearing it down does not increase capacity significantly (decrease if they choose the latter).

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Where are you getting that figure? As of the 2006 census it was 22% (higher now, undoubtedly) plus 7% that walk/bike/etc.

The Star 2 years ago, today its ~30% for Toronto city proper (you know where all the subways and frequent buses are) but transit usage lops off hard in York, Peel region etc. bringing the average down.

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

However, for trips terminating downtown, most are using transit.

I agree downtown has a huge modal share for transit but its it enough to warrant tearing down a major east west corridor? Last time I checked the gardener is still pretty well used. My point is that if Seoul's avg. is >50% even with the outer suburbs bringing it down imagine how much of Seoul's 3 downtowns takes transit.

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Also, the Gardiner runs parallel to the Lakeshore GO line, and hopefully the DRL in the not-too-distant future.

DRL is like big dig phase 2 in scope, I don't think Toronto can handle 2 huge ultra megaprojects. though unlike the big dig its got some support but I don't think it will be finished in 10-15 years for trains to even start rolling.

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

And it's not a regional through route by any means, its purpose is to get people downtown. Very few would take the Gardiner + DVP through Toronto when they could take the 401 + 427.

The only way you can verify that is if the expressway is a sub, like Soeul. If it goes though people will go though. I used it a few times to go from golden mile to Dixie mall (example). Its the E-W expressway for the lower half of Toronto.

Originally Posted by Diesel_Power

You never noticed the GO trains whizzing by the Gardiner?

I knew someone will point that out.
have you ever noticed the GO train is hardly rapid transit. The Lakeshore lines might be the best GO train lines in the network but it would still be the worse rapid transit line because it isn't one. Now we all know GO has be incrementally improving service, but its not like overnight it will be like BAM Yamanote line or something, even with electrification on the horizon they sure are taking their sweet sweet time on it.

[Suwhenzetie]

A couple well placed explosives, some excavator and a hundred dump trucks should do the job just fine.

I hate driving on that section of the highway.

[AndrewJM3D]

TB as much as I enjoy the view from the Gardiner as well, it would be far better for the city to bury it then to keep it around. It has a limited life span and at some point we will need a city council with the balls to make some tough decisions and a provincial and federal government willing to invest in a city that they like to take from but rarely give back to.

[monkeyronin]

Originally Posted by saiho

The Star 2 years ago, today its ~30% for Toronto city proper (you know where all the subways and frequent buses are) but transit usage lops off hard in York, Peel region etc. bringing the average down.

Not sure where they're getting their numbers then, because its 34% according for city according to Statcan (44% total of commuters being non-drivers), 22% for the CMA as mentioned previously. I'd put more faith in their numbers.

The only way you can verify that is if the expressway is a sub, like Soeul. If it goes though people will go though. I used it a few times to go from golden mile to Dixie mall (example). Its the E-W expressway for the lower half of Toronto.

The Gardiner-DVP junction averages 33,000 vehicles per day, making it the second least busy section after the Lakeshore Blvd. E extension - both a lot less busy than the sections to the west, and evidently quiet enough that the city had planned to demolish it (on hold since Rob Ford came to office).

I knew someone will point that out.
have you ever noticed the GO train is hardly rapid transit. The Lakeshore lines might be the best GO train lines in the network but it would still be the worse rapid transit line because it isn't one. Now we all know GO has be incrementally improving service, but its not like overnight it will be like BAM Yamanote line or something, even with electrification on the horizon they sure are taking their sweet sweet time on it.

Its not like Gardiner-burying project would happen overnight either. There is enough time before the theoretical demolition would even commence for GO to continue increasing service on the Lakeshore lines, and perhaps even for the TTC to get started on the DRL. Such a project would take a few years just to begin.

[AndrewJM3D]

Thought I'd re-post this here.

image hosted on flickr

[MattToronto]

I think if the pillars themselves were given a little nicer form, like in the examples a few posts up, and applied with a layer of white paint, they could come across as quite airy and attractive. A dig is impossible at this point, so at least a beautification could never hurt.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Well the only other alternative is to spend half a billion dollars on repairs.

Is the estimate as high as that? I wonder how many billions would be required to bury it, though.... and how much the project would actually cost when all is said and done.
Who will pay for it, may I ask?

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Is the estimate as high as that? I wonder how many billions would be required to bury it, though.... and how much the project would actually cost when all is said and done.
Who will pay for it, may I ask?

An additional 460M is allocated in the proposed 2013-2022 capital budget(s) for Gardiner repairs and today's estimated backlog is 626M. After 2022 we will still have another 120M in outstanding repairs.

See page 33 (changes from prior budgets, NOT total spending per category):
http://www1.toronto.ca/staticfiles/s...esentation.pdf


I believe page 13 of this document shows totals:
http://www.toronto.ca/budget2013/pdf...sportation.pdf

You can see that all other Toronto owned expressways (DVP, Lake Shore, six points?, Eglinton ramps?) will receive $6.5M/year or $65M over the 10 year time frame reducing their backlog from $77M to $13M. If you dig back through Miller's budgets, you can see he also increased maintenance spending on Gardiner over Lastman; so the large backlog value isn't a result of lack of maintenance it's a result of Gardiner being very expensive to maintain.

-> Phase 1 - The replacement of the main deck from the Don Roadway to Cherry Street ($60 million). Construction is expected to start in the summer of 2013 and be completed by the end of 2014;
-> Phase 2 - The replacement of the main deck from Cherry to Parliament Streets ($73.150 million);
-> Phase 3 - The replacement of the main deck from Parliament to Jarvis Streets ($76.820 million);

There is little need for most of this section to be elevated. Before spending $210M to rebuild the deck (which will need to be done again in 60 years) it's worth considering spending $200M to adjust the built form and reduce ongoing maintenance costs by 95%. The DVP gets about $4.7M in maintenance per year for it's entire length and backlog is falling indicating this level of spending is high.


The financially smart/tax payer sensitive/bean counter thing to do is to consider restructuring Gardiner in the sections which operate well below capacity and have minimal restrictions in built form (no surrounding condos). Maybe the answer is that we're willing to pay the premium for Gardiner as it is today but a fiscal conservative would take a look at it.