The Gardiner - What's Next?

[Taller, Better]

How about an up to date and realistic projection for the cost of burying the Gardiner? Something tells me it will be well into the two digit billions. That is a high cost to pay for vanity.

[AndrewJM3D]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

How about an up to date and realistic projection for the cost of burying the Gardiner? Something tells me it will be well into the two digit billions. That is a high cost to pay for vanity.

It's no longer just a vanity issue, it's a safety issue. Each year we put it off the cost increases to do something about it.

[Taller, Better]

Well, there is the obviously cheaper option to repair the Gardiner so that it is no longer a safety issue. If anyone thinks that a multi-multi-billion dollar buried expressway will not require expensive maintenance as well then they are mistaken. ALL infrastructure requires maintenance and repair to keep it ship shape.
Stripping that issue away, I'd say civic vanity does play a fair hand in the push to bury the Gardiner.

[cruzin4u]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Well, there is the obviously cheaper option to repair the Gardiner so that it is no longer a safety issue. If anyone thinks that a multi-multi-billion dollar buried expressway will not require expensive maintenance as well then they are mistaken. ALL infrastructure requires maintenance and repair to keep it ship shape.
Stripping that issue away, I'd say civic vanity does play a fair hand in the push to bury the Gardiner.

That's exactly it. In the end, the project would go way over budget. Much like with the 'Big Dig', there will be scandals, major repair work (As of April 2012, it appears that all of the 25,000 light fixtures will have to replaced, at an estimated cost of $54 million. The replacement work will be done at night, and will require lane closures or closing of the entire tunnel for safety, and may take up to 2 years to complete.) and who knows what else.

As much as we'd love to bury the Gardiner, it's just not going to happen any time soon. Where the money would come from is one thing, but imagine the traffic nightmare that would result from all the construction (and you would be talking 10+ years of construction).

[Taller, Better]

I know we live in a utilitarian no-nonsense society, but I don't think we should dismiss the joyful pleasure of the beautiful and quick scenic ride into our city on the elevated freeway.
What better way to introduce strangers to our city? A dreary underground tunnel is both eerie and depressing, by comparison, as anyone who has driven into Montreal from the West must have noticed.

[LEAFS FANATIC]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

A dreary underground tunnel is both eerie and depressing, by comparison, as anyone who has driven into Montreal from the West must have noticed.

Personally, I don't think there is anything more dreary than driving under the Gardiner Expressway (i.e. Lakeshore Boulevard).

The solution, since the country and province is too broke and too stupid to properly manage tax revenues, is this:

Privatize the demolition of the Gardiner and construction of the new underground/tunnel expressway just like they did with the 407 ETR. Slap toll fees on it and you instantly cut traffic in half, encourage more people to take public transit, and beautify the lakeshore region all at the same time!

But then again, I wouldn't expect our politicians to ever think outside the box or thin in ways that actually SAVE tax payers' money.

[Dmerdude]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

I know we live in a utilitarian no-nonsense society, but I don't think we should dismiss the joyful pleasure of the beautiful and quick scenic ride into our city on the elevated freeway.
What better way to introduce strangers to our city? A dreary underground tunnel is both eerie and depressing, by comparison, as anyone who has driven into Montreal from the West must have noticed.

A giant highway along waterfront is not esthetic unless you are driving. Plus, a lot (most?) of the visitors use the transit.

[Dmerdude]

Originally Posted by LEAFS FANATIC

Personally, I don't think there is anything more dreary than driving under the Gardiner Expressway (i.e. Lakeshore Boulevard).

The solution, since the country and province is too broke and too stupid to properly manage tax revenues, is this:

Privatize the demolition of the Gardiner and construction of the new underground/tunnel expressway just like they did with the 407 ETR. Slap toll fees on it and you instantly cut traffic in half, encourage more people to take public transit, and beautify the lakeshore region all at the same time!

But then again, I wouldn't expect our politicians to ever think outside the box or thin in ways that actually SAVE tax payers' money.

This kinda makes sense, but toll booths do increase traffic too. The connections would also have to be limited to collect toll fees from all drivers.

[LEAFS FANATIC]

Originally Posted by Dmerdude

This kinda makes sense, but toll booths do increase traffic too. The connections would also have to be limited to collect toll fees from all drivers.

Not toll booths. They can use the video toll booths that scan your licence plate and bill you automatically or scan your transponder which saves you some money. Like these ones used on the 407:

[LEAFS FANATIC]

Originally Posted by Dmerdude

A giant highway along waterfront is not esthetic unless you are driving. Plus, a lot (most?) of the visitors use the transit.

+1

[monkeyronin]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

I know we live in a utilitarian no-nonsense society, but I don't think we should dismiss the joyful pleasure of the beautiful and quick scenic ride into our city on the elevated freeway.
What better way to introduce strangers to our city? A dreary underground tunnel is both eerie and depressing, by comparison, as anyone who has driven into Montreal from the West must have noticed.

I like elevated expressways too, but recognize that we're in the minority here (also, I wouldn't call the opposing view utilitarian - quite the opposite actually, as burying it is for the purpose of aesthetics, not efficiency). And burying the Gardiner would seem to be in the best long-term interest of our city.

[AndrewJM3D]

Boston has delayed the chances of doing our own Big Dig. Not every public works project ends with the stigma that project did. Even though Boston's project wasn't a textbook engineering success you'd be hard to find a Bostonian or tourist that didn't think it was well worth it. Vanity some of you say? Fine but a city needs to invest in a few major facelifts from time to time to correct or improve the living conditions for its citizens and to show the world that its progressive. Montreal, Vancouver, and a few other towns and cities get it. For the size of Toronto and our tax base there is really no reason why we can't conceive a way to move on this.

[Taller, Better]

Originally Posted by Dmerdude

A giant highway along waterfront is not esthetic unless you are driving. Plus, a lot (most?) of the visitors use the transit.

The Gardiner has become completely, utterly hemmed in by highrise condos. Chock-a-block, to be precise. What exactly are we gaining by creating a little strip of surface land? The world's longest, skinniest most expensive park (and in winter curling rink)? We are not exactly turning the clock back half a century.

[isaidso]

My position on the Gardiner is the same as its always been: a 6 lane tunnel and at grade a normal city street with stops every 100-150m. We'd still have the exact same views coming into the city, but from a car traveling on a street at 40km/h instead of a car on a highway traveling 90km/h and 10m off the ground.

Whatever its fate, I hope someone doesn't have to die before the Gardiner issue is tackled.

[Taller, Better]

No, an at-grade road would in no way give you the exact same views. Quite likely you would see only the tops of some of the buildings over whatever is on the side of the road.

[isaidso]

It wouldn't give you the same views, but it would arguably provide a far better view. You'd see the lobbies all the way up to the peak of the towers. Not only would you see the entire height of the buildings, but you'd be doing it while moving slowly rather than the whole thing whizzing by in 30-40 seconds.

[AndrewJM3D]

A report that has just been released today.

cp24.com

Report: Gardiner Expressway becoming unstable

City of Toronto engineers have issued a blunt warning about nearly half of the Gardiner Expressway’s elevated section, saying it is becoming structurally unstable and requires major repairs, according to a published report.

Engineers have asked for half a billion dollars in capital funding to tear out problem sections and rebuild them over the next decade, the Toronto Star reports.

According to the report, engineers are concerned about a two-kilometre stretch east of Jarvis Street and warn it will be unsafe to drive on in as little as six years if a massive overhaul doesn’t take place.
Related Stories

Report finds Gardiner presents 'safety hazard'

A kilometre-long stretch between Strachan Avenue and Rees Street is in similar condition, engineers warn.

Read more: http://www.cp24.com/news/report-gard...#ixzz2EqEKnlfd

[MattToronto]

The Boston "Big Dig" was originally set for a cost of $6 billion, however ended up costing $14 billion (and $22 billion when all is said and done). After that many turned away from burying their expressways. It's done wonders for Boston however, and we have much less to bury (realistically from..Esplanade to just past the Exhibition).

[Taller, Better]

And that was how many decades ago? Wonder what $22 billion would cost in today's dollars....
I'm surprised with all the constant push for burying the Gardiner, there doesn't seem to be much of a realistic current
estimate. People should really know a pricetag before they buy an idea (even if the finished cost is four times the always too low original quotes).

[monkeyronin]

It was completed in 2007. It was also a longer (5.6 km), and much more complicated project as it involved underwater tunnels, underground interchanges, and navigating around subway tunnels. There were also problems with the soil, the construction quality, etc.

An underground Gardiner would run from about Strachan to Jarvis (3.5 km) in a straight, simple line with no obstacles.

And while the Big Dig might have been a big boondoggle, its not the only example of an underground expressway being built. The 2.1 km Cross City Tunnel in Sydney cost $700 million. The 4.5 km Dublin Port Tunnel cost €752 million. There is no reason that burying the Gardiner should cost $22 billion.