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Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:00 AM   #21
ThatOneGuy
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Remember Kowloon Walled City? Ugh.



At least this replaced it!
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Also don't forget what happened in the USA and Europe with building those massive housing projects also ofthen to replace slum like area's....
Mots of these places are sad places full of crime, gang activity and so on. So I'm not sure if it's any better. It looks better from the outside, that's true.
Very true. On the contrary in the two places where I have lived in Asia, HK and Singapore no matter how poor the area or how non-assuming the housing complexed it's always extremely safe and the public space is well kept as well.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:28 AM   #23
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Remember Kowloon Walled City? Ugh.
The walled city is surreal. Would have loved to have photographed it. The same goes for the old Kai Tak which was once nearby.


A lot of the hillside on Kowloon side was once covered with low rise slums until they started building social housing projects after a great fire destroyed a large portion.

Before:


After:
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
Very true. On the contrary in the two places where I have lived in Asia, HK and Singapore no matter how poor the area or how non-assuming the housing complexed it's always extremely safe and the public space is well kept as well.

Sometimes I find that hard to believe but I'm sure you're right. Maybe I've played sleeping dogs for to long
Now you mention it, I saw a video once of Chungking mansions, while probably not everything in there is legal, it looked pretty safe. I'd never enter such building in my life overhere if it existed tho...Probably get robbed afther 5ft and beaten to dead afther 10.

Edit here it is: I loved the vid! But anywhere around the world, such building would be a criminal hellhole.

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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:10 PM   #25
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Yes, in other words, a lot of these government "slum clearance" projects - often done in the pretext of social justice and better living conditions - are all about easier police and social control of impoverished populations.
Isn't it better to give police better access to locate and apprehend thieves, murdered, gang members, drug dealers, illegal immigrants and what else?

Why should any respectable citizen wish that some areas of a city are "off-limits" to the police?

At least on democratic countries, with rare exceptions only those doing something wrong must wish that police work is made harder by means of a clumsy irregular urban design.

Your anti-order bias is incredible... Are you one of those head-in-the-moon people who think slums are "good" because they foster some kind of 'common struggle' for people living there and give drug dealers and gangs some form of "alternate control" of the urban space?

As for myself, I go over it: beyond getting more police control over a crime-infested area (a no-brainer, police should be focusing on reducing crime, always), it is important to clear slums and, if possible, relocate its population elsewhere to break the structures of communities set for evil that often proliferate under a chaotic, unhealthy, un-policed environment like slums. Ideally, multiple slum clearances should happen simultaneously at the same metro, and the population scattered among different housing projects (such that each project houses people from many different former slums and no former slum has its population concentrated on a same project) so that the social relations, hierarchy and networks of specific slums are destroyed, giving these people a better chance to reinvent their lives in a different tone while being moved to decent and regular housing with public services available to them. Then, a zero-tolerance policy can follow, aiming to weed out those who few who, after having received the physical infrastructure they need to live with dignity, insist on keeping a permanent state of criminal mindset, even if the substratum for heightened criminality and gang life (slum) has been removed.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 03:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshsam View Post
Sometimes I find that hard to believe but I'm sure you're right. Maybe I've played sleeping dogs for to long
Now you mention it, I saw a video once of Chungking mansions, while probably not everything in there is legal, it looked pretty safe. I'd never enter such building in my life overhere if it existed tho...Probably get robbed afther 5ft and beaten to dead afther 10.

Edit here it is: I loved the vid! But anywhere around the world, such building would be a criminal hellhole.
I have never been inside Chungking but knew of people who would always go to eat Indian food there. It's dead in the center of a swanky shopping area these days. I agree it feels as if you never return once you enter.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 03:51 PM   #27
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A lot of the hillside on Kowloon side was once covered with low rise slums until they started building social housing projects after a great fire destroyed a large portion.

Before:


After:
That's the Shek Kip Mei slum, which burned down in 1953. As a result of the devastation, Hong Kong's first public housing estate was built here.





Some of these blocks have been demolished in the past few years for redevelopment into taller public housing blocks. One particular block will be revitalized.



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Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:14 PM   #28
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Those new ones look so much better!

I was lucky to photograph to be able to that first Shek Kip Mei estate at the foot of the hill before they started the conversion in a youth hostel (?).

Hong Kong is an example to follow in terms of social housing!
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 10:53 PM   #29
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The best solution for slums:

image hosted on flickr




What I never understood about these kind of slums in Brazil, and other countries, is is how did they come into being in the first place? Why were they allowed to be built? America is full of poor people but there are no slums because no one can build a slum. You can't just go to a plot of land and start building yourself a shack. You immediately get arrested for trespassing, whether it is private of government land. So why did the government and property owners allow these slums to develop in the first place?

So I still don't understand how these slums work. Do the people that simply started building on the land, now own the land? And if the government builds these new buildings, do the people have to buy them from the gov, or are they given an apartment at no cost, other than paying rent?

Slums never made sense to me. How did they come into existence and why were they allowed?
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:09 PM   #30
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In Brazil, massive imigration poor farmers people for big cities between 1960-1990.

Today 90% brazilains lives in cities.

btw this is the new apartments there.

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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #31
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anoldblackmarble....
please....tell me...what kind of house or apartment the poor people can buy in united states?
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Old January 4th, 2013, 03:32 AM   #32
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Belo Horizonte Brazil

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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:18 AM   #33
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In Brazil, massive imigration poor farmers people for big cities between 1960-1990.
Of course that happened everywhere in the world, but my question is, how can these people come to the city, find and empty plot of land, and just build themselves a house. To me that sounds insane. Doesn't anyone own that land, whether private or government? Don't you need a permit to build? I just don't understand how that is allowed.

I live in the US now but I'm originally from Eastern Europe, and I've never seen that ever in Europe or America. To build on any land you must first provide proof that the land is yours, and if you can't you will be forcefully removed by the police, and of course if you resist, you get arrested.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:37 AM   #34
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anoldblackmarble....
please....tell me...what kind of house or apartment the poor people can buy in united states?
Nothing. Poor people rent, and it depends on how poor you are. Mostly poor people share apartments, so they can split the rent, or mooch off their friends or relatives if they don't have jobs, if they have such friends. Otherwise many become homeless. Some get government assistance, where the government pays part of the rent. So lets say the average cost per month for an apartment is $500, but you can't afford it. The government will pay $200 and you have to pay the other $300 that way you can afford to live there and the owner of the building still makes the local average that he expects for that neighborhood. This is why America has good and bad neighborhoods, but not necessarily slums. Even in the worst neighborhoods buildings are built in accordance to the law, and permits, with proper streets, sewers, electricity, because the are built by private companies for profit, so there is no such thing as free housing.

So are you implying that in Brazil these apartments are given to the people for free, to own, with no rent or payment what so ever?
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Old January 4th, 2013, 06:51 AM   #35
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Wow...awesome thread!
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Old January 4th, 2013, 07:41 AM   #36
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Of course that happened everywhere in the world, but my question is, how can these people come to the city, find and empty plot of land, and just build themselves a house. To me that sounds insane. Doesn't anyone own that land, whether private or government? Don't you need a permit to build? I just don't understand how that is allowed.

I live in the US now but I'm originally from Eastern Europe, and I've never seen that ever in Europe or America. To build on any land you must first provide proof that the land is yours, and if you can't you will be forcefully removed by the police, and of course if you resist, you get arrested.
Three words:

Deficient law enforcement.

Last edited by DarkLite; January 4th, 2013 at 07:46 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 10:17 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOldBlackMarble View Post
Of course that happened everywhere in the world, but my question is, how can these people come to the city, find and empty plot of land, and just build themselves a house. To me that sounds insane. Doesn't anyone own that land, whether private or government? Don't you need a permit to build? I just don't understand how that is allowed.
Construction on these slums is obviously illegal. But law enforcement is lax, or was at least, so government really didn't do much to counteract these activities. And slums don't appear overnight, usually they start with one or two small shacks, then keep growing.

Often, politicians didn't dare to vacate them for political reasons or for not having any alternative solution about where to put the people.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #38
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How many slums are actually illegal, and how many are completely legal?

I mean, take a hillside completely legally owned by a poor peasant next to a city. It is a land of little value to him - he may pick a few branches of firewood there, he may graze a few goats there, but nothing expensive like a ploughable field.

Surely, if a large number of poor peasants come looking for jobs in the city and cheap housing, the landowner in the suburbs might completely legally rent or outright sell small plots of his otherwise low value land for the newcomers to build their own houses/shacks on, at an appropriately cheap price?

So how to handle a slum where nobody is a squatter because everyone has perfectly legal full title to the plot their shack stands on?
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Old January 4th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #39
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Example in Paris of slum removal:

Slum of Nanterre, a suburb of Paris in the 60ties and 70ties: Note the roof of the shopping mall that is today in the center of the Paris CBD of La Défence!!!


http://pottier.jean.free.fr/PJImg/app0015_opt_04.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Gts4bYmAMM...nanterre_2.jpg

Replaced by this:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y63ZZWPGyu...d_Nanterre.jpg





Newly build slum by Roma in Bondy, a suburb of Paris. See AnOldBlackMarble, how easy people can build slums anywhere in the world? Yes even in western countries it's possible.


http://photo.parismatch.com/media/ph...aysage_std.jpg
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Last edited by joshsam; January 4th, 2013 at 12:59 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #40
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Smoky Mountain in Tondo, Manila was one of the largest garbage dumps and a major slum area.





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Today, it is replaced with public housing



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