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Old April 29th, 2013, 03:17 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
It is a "lost" city from a different reason. Population transfers after the war changed the city's cultural continuity, language, religion, etc. For example as a result of changing borders of Poland by Big Three, from over 35 well preserved Latin Catholic Churches (originally built for this purpose) in Lwow before the war, there are only about 5 in today's Lviv that are still Latin Catholic. Also, most monuments have been demolished (e.g. the oldest secular monument in Lwow that was built in honour of Stanisław Jan Jabłonowski in 1752-1754). Polish language, which was used by majority of the city between the early 16th century and 1940s was regarded as rubbish after the war, so many museums, libraries, galleries, etc. have been closed (precious artefacts, books and art works were just simply destroyed).

Of course, the city wasn't damaged during the war and that is why its high architectural value was rewarded by UNESCO.
Lwów should have never been mentioned in this thread as it survived the war almost completely undamaged. Following your way of seeing things we could say almost every city of Silesia, Neumark, East Pommerania and Prussia has been lost as its culture, language and religion almost completely disappeard as an aftermath of the population transfers. But no, they have not been lost, at least not in that sense. Many of those cities have been mentioned in this thread, yet, it has nothing to do with population transfers but with the damage that has been done throughout the war. I think we'd all agree that the people who inhabited Breslau, Danzig, Wilno or Lwów after the WW2 did all they could to preserve those cities' heritage.
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Old April 29th, 2013, 09:24 PM   #342
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Lwów should have never been mentioned in this thread as it survived the war almost completely undamaged. Following your way of seeing things we could say almost every city of Silesia, Neumark, East Pommerania and Prussia has been lost as its culture, language and religion almost completely disappeard as an aftermath of the population transfers. But no, they have not been lost, at least not in that sense. Many of those cities have been mentioned in this thread, yet, it has nothing to do with population transfers but with the damage that has been done throughout the war. I think we'd all agree that the people who inhabited Breslau, Danzig, Wilno or Lwów after the WW2 did all they could to preserve those cities' heritage.
Doesn't Lviv have this great looking Mickiewicz monument? I think it should have been transferred to Poland.
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Old April 29th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #343
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Found it.


http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/01/21/83/04_big.jpg



At least it was not destroyed (to my knowledge).
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Old April 29th, 2013, 09:58 PM   #344
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Nice to see you again, rychlik Yes, that monument on the photo above wasn't destroyed. There are few more that were spared. Unfortunately, the oldest monuments were demolished, e.g. monument of Jan of Dukla (1736) and Stanislaw Jablonowski (1752-1754).

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Old April 30th, 2013, 06:47 PM   #345
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MANILA, PHL

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Another revived building in Manila, The First National City Bank, currently, the Juan Luna E-services Building.













https://www.facebook.com/pages/Juan-...47043202010547
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Old May 1st, 2013, 03:36 AM   #346
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Welcome back to life, Luneta Hotel.
[IMG]http://i42.************/160d35t.jpg[/IMG]
© gangmanila
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war time and post war period

Colegio de San Juan de Letran
[IMG]http://i50.************/wr04s7.jpg[/IMG]

Manila Post Office
[IMG]http://i45.************/1pdmz4.jpg[/IMG]

Department of Finance
[IMG]http://i45.************/16h97v5.jpg[/IMG]

Manila City Hall
[IMG]http://i46.************/29ggy92.jpg[/IMG]

photos by noelatbose 4/6/13
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Old May 9th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #347
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Le Havre 1938

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Old May 10th, 2013, 04:45 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
It is a "lost" city from a different reason. Population transfers after the war changed the city's cultural continuity, language, religion, etc. For example as a result of changing borders of Poland by Big Three, from over 35 well preserved Latin Catholic Churches (originally built for this purpose) in Lwow before the war, there are only about 5 in today's Lviv that are still Latin Catholic.
It's not important if they are still Roman Catholic. What is important, is whether or not they survived in the first place (most of them did). And they are mostly well preserved.

Actually, Lwów is one of the last cities of Europe I'd call "lost"; despite of the fact that city got some minor damages during fight in 1939, 1941 (aerial bombardment) and 1944 (street fight).

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Nice job with Manila reconstruction. Can you please recommend some sources on Manila destruction and reconstruction? This topic looks interesting to me.
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 03:01 AM   #349
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I have the following conclusion to make in case of the destroyed cities within the post-1945 borders of Poland and Germany.

According to the importance of following criteria (historic importance, architecture value and cultural meltingpoint), i have now a list of cities in the two countries which if not destroyed would make the two countries into the most visited countries in Europe.

Here they are (We begin with Poland since the list is shortest (actually only two cities):

Poland

1. Warsaw

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3624/18539.jpg

As Poland´s capital since the end of the 16th century, Warsaw had a great number of architectural pearls from all periods of the Polish and Masovian history (Gothic, renaissance, baroque, classicism, secession, national monumental revival architecture and modernism).

But more importantly, Warsaw was the city that nevertheless the outcome would still end up as the horror-city of WWII. The nightmare of the Jewish ghetto. The daily terror by Nazi-German occupation force (mostly SS): Street roundups and executions, the nightmares of the Pawiak prison, systematic destruction of everything related to the polish soul and history, murder of the elites (intelligentsia). When you add to this the activities of the Polish Underground state and the Jewish ghetto Uprising then you get a greater picture on which type of destination Warsaw would be today if it wasn´t turned into rubble during and after the Warsaw Uprising (1944-1945). Warsaw get a top spot for its historic importance to the Polish nation, and that it would be an exhibition window of modern day Poland and of poles abroad.

2. Gdansk/Danzig

http://fotopolska.eu/foto/136/136648.jpg

What can be said about this city. The place which ended up as a free city and the reason for the outbreak of WWII. All of us agree that this gothic (medieval), renaissance and manneristic pearl of a seaport city deserved a better destiny than the one it met in end of march, begging of april 1945. More than 700 years of history was lost in the course of a few days. It took hundreds of years to build the city and it was part of more than six different countries until the downfall (The Teutonic state, Kingdom of Poland, Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, Kingdom of Prussia, Germany and finally as the Free city of Danzig (which legally still exists on the paper)).

If it would have survived the war, then it would by no doubt be the most visited city in Poland with a great number of preserved medieval and renaissance structures. Historically the city had also the greatest impact on Poland, as Gdansk/Danzig was the largest city and the real economic powerhouse of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth for over 200 years (1550-1750). The city would by no doubt have the largest amount of historical structures in the country if it had survived the war. After the war it could have a great historic concept in the city about the Free city, the build up and outbreak of WWII (Westerplatte and the Polish post office). All this topped with 1000 years of city history with its golden age as one of the largest and wealthiest cities in Europe. A great plus to this would be the intact Malbork/Marienburg castle and Malbork/Marienburg old town after the end of the war.

Combined the spared cities of Gdansk (Northern Poland, The Venice of the North), Warsaw (Central Poland, Paris of the north) and Krakow (Southern Poland, The historical capital of Poland) would make Poland today, into one of the most touristically and architecturally interesting countries in Europe (Probably only surapased by Italy, France, Spain and the Germany you will see in my next post). It would definately give the country a completely different image and reputation abroad.

Gdansk

http://www.danzig-online.pl/luft/d06.jpg


http://www.danzig-online.pl/color/012.jpg

Warsaw

http://art-im.biz/galery/Warszawa/Ma...amkowy_330.jpg

Krakow

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med.../04/krakow.jpg

The three points of Poland (Gdansk -> Warsaw -> Krakow)

http://www.gazetakaszubska.pl/wp-con...rasowe-pkp.jpg

Next post: Four cities in Germany which (if not destroyed) could have changed the country as we see it today
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 05:42 PM   #350
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I have the following conclusion to make in case of the destroyed cities within the post-1945 borders of Poland and Germany.

According to the importance of following criteria (historic importance, architecture value and cultural meltingpoint), i have now a list of cities in the two countries which if not destroyed would make the two countries into the most visited countries in Europe.
Combined the spared cities of Gdansk (Northern Poland, The Venice of the North), Warsaw (Central Poland, Paris of the north) and Krakow (Southern Poland, The historical capital of Poland) would make Poland today, into one of the most touristically and architecturally interesting countries in Europe (Probably only surapased by Italy, France and the Germany you will see in my next post) and would give the country a completely different image and reputation abroad.
IMHO in order to be the most touristically and architecturally interesting country in Europe Poland would have to annex all Spain including Balearies and Canary Islands

Actually, nearly everything that was interesting from historic period in Warsaw, and destroyed 1939-45, has been reconstructed afterwards. In Gdansk not everything, but definitely majority. Krakow escaped destruction.

Neither of them cities attracted much tourists before 1939, nor it would today.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 04:41 PM   #351
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IMHO in order to be the most touristically and architecturally interesting country in Europe Poland would have to annex all Spain including Balearies and Canary Islands

Actually, nearly everything that was interesting from historic period in Warsaw, and destroyed 1939-45, has been reconstructed afterwards. In Gdansk not everything, but definitely majority. Krakow escaped destruction.

Neither of them cities attracted much tourists before 1939, nor it would today.

You are nitpicking... didn't he said it jointly? On the other hand the same could be said for example about some places in England.

Surely "Poland trips" would gain much if Warsaw had at least half of pre-war architecture in place... kind of obvious.. The gems of architecture are essential magnets but it is the sea of tenements houses which are neccessary to build a proper climate of the place.

Sometimes I wonder if WWII didn't happen there would have been around at least 1 billion of Europeans by now... probably around 70 mln of Poles, 150 mln of Germans, etc.. It is possible that with this size of populations modernism and early car culture could do exactly the same damage as WWII to the cities architecture...

VV EDIT: @keepthepast... I basically disagree with everything you've wrote... but this is not probably the right thread for that discussion
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 07:21 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by jwojcie View Post

You are nitpicking... didn't he said it jointly? On the other hand the same could be said for example about some places in England.

Surely "Poland trips" would gain much if Warsaw had at least half of pre-war architecture in place... kind of obvious.. The gems of architecture are essential magnets but it is the sea of tenements houses which are neccessary to build a proper climate of the place.

Sometimes I wonder if WWII didn't happen there would have been around at least 1 billion of Europeans by now... probably around 70 mln of Poles, 150 mln of Germans, etc.. It is possible that with this size of populations modernism and early car culture could do exactly the same damage as WWII to the cities architecture...
It's true that architectural gems are magnets for tourists, but that's not the main reason why tourists avoid Poland. Car rental agencies won't allow cars to be driven there due to criminal activity. Theft is rampant. The hotels and restaurants are not up to western standards. Few are bi or tri lingual. Once these issues get improved, more tourists will go.

As for the population projections, Europe would never have gotten that large. The excess peoples would have emigrated to USA, south America, Asia, or elsewhere, but would not have been crammed into that area. The space was a key reason for WWII.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 09:05 PM   #353
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Car rental agencies won't allow cars to be driven there due to criminal activity. Theft is rampant. The hotels and restaurants are not up to western standards. Few are bi or tri lingual.
Wow, looks like we have a true expert here...

Can I ask when was the last time you travelled to Poland?
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 11:14 PM   #354
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Wow, looks like we have a true expert here...

Can I ask when was the last time you travelled to Poland?
Ah Mr. Sarcasm passes judgment once again.

Fact is, I was in Poland 19 months ago and could not take my Hertz rental car from Berlin into Poland. Alternate transportation was required; I did the train. While the influx of U.S. and western European hotel chain properties have grown substantially since 2000, the country remains under-capitalized for rooms and services. And if one doesn't get a room in one of the well known hotels, the quality is way under expectation.

This is from a 2012 U.S. Department of State report:

"Pick pocketing is common throughout Poland, is one of the most frequently reported crimes, and most impacts official American citizens. Most pick pocketing incidents occur on public transportation or in areas where there are large crowds, such as train and bus stations. At train stations, where many people are vulnerable carrying cumbersome luggage and other articles, a group of thieves most often jostle and distract their victim while the wallet or billfold is deftly stolen. Some victims have reported the use of sharp instruments to cut through purses and backpacks"

I won't go back until things get better.

Sorry, nothing personal, just facts with more expertise than the big-mouth asking.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 11:24 PM   #355
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del

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Old June 3rd, 2013, 11:43 PM   #356
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Please, that's clearly NOT the place for such travel discussions here. Thanks.


For me, the biggest losses in Germany are:

- Dresden
- Frankfurt am Main
- Hildesheim & Braunschweig
- Würzburg
- Nuremberg
- Chemnitz
- Pforzheim
- Kassel

- Munich
- Hamburg
- Berlin
- Cologne
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Old June 4th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #357
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It's true that architectural gems are magnets for tourists, but that's not the main reason why tourists avoid Poland. Car rental agencies won't allow cars to be driven there due to criminal activity. Theft is rampant. The hotels and restaurants are not up to western standards. Few are bi or tri lingual. Once these issues get improved, more tourists will go.
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Ah Mr. Sarcasm passes judgment once again.
Well, be it sarcasm from my side or not, I simply think that ignorance is not a virtue.

But in reply to your opinions/allegations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
(...) that's not the main reason why tourists avoid Poland.
The World Bank data as at 2011: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/...isplay=default

However, the number of arrivals is just one indicator, which does not always show country's benefits from the tourist activity as such. Therefore, a better indicator seem to be the remittance volumes from foreign tourists. I can't find a source on that at the moment, but I recall a discussion between Polish & Ukrainian forumers after the Euro 2012, where it was stated that, although the number of arrivals in Poland is lower than Ukraine, the remittances from tourism are higher.

Also, the hosting of Euro 2012 Cup led to better volumes in 2012, plus the brand of Poland as a tourist destination country has improved.

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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Car rental agencies won't allow cars to be driven there due to criminal activity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Fact is, I was in Poland 19 months ago and could not take my Hertz rental car from Berlin into Poland.
Interesting...

From Herz.de: "Hertz vehicles may be driven, but not dropped off in Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia." From what I can see only driving of premium cars is not allowed.

http://www.hertz.de/rentacar/reserva...NS&EOAG=MUCT50

If we look at car theft, it has gone down significantly, from more than 70k in 2000 to 16.3k in 2011 (as per Polish Police stats). The risk of getting a car stolen in Poland is now reported as one of the lowest in Europe (link to an article in Polish).

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
While the influx of U.S. and western European hotel chain properties have grown substantially since 2000, the country remains under-capitalized for rooms and services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
The hotels and restaurants are not up to western standards.
Interesting (again)...

Quote:
London hotels ranked the worst in 100 cities

(Reuters) - Visitors to London have marked its hotels as the worst in a list of 100 cities due to overpriced minibars, lousy breakfasts and slow service, according to a survey released on Friday.

(...)


The 10 best cities for hotel rooms: 1. Dresden, Germany 2. Hanoi, Vietnam 3. Portland, US 4. Tokyo, Japan 5. Santiago de Compostela, Spain 6. Gdansk, Poland 7. Chicago, US 8. Seattle, US 9. Krakow, Poland 10. Budapest, Hungary

The 10 worst: 91. Los Angeles, US 92. Kiev, Ukraine 93. Frankfurt, Germany 94. Panama City, Panama 95. Brussels, Belgium 96. Amsterdam, Netherlands 97. Paris, France 98. Copenhagen, Denmark 99. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 100. London, UK
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...90O0ZD20130126

So I am truly glad that hotels in Poland are "not up to western standards".

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
"Pick pocketing is common throughout Poland, is one of the most frequently reported crimes, and most impacts official American citizens. (...)
That may be true, I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
I won't go back until things get better.
Sorry to hear that (sarcasm? ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Please, that's clearly NOT the place for such travel discussions here. Thanks.
You're right. But it wouldn't be the first time for "keepthepast" to have a go at Poland.

I'm done with my bit anyway.

Last edited by katsuma; June 4th, 2013 at 12:35 AM.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 01:38 AM   #358
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Ah Mr. Sarcasm passes judgment once again.

Fact is, I was in Poland 19 months ago and could not take my Hertz rental car from Berlin into Poland. Alternate transportation was required; I did the train. While the influx of U.S. and western European hotel chain properties have grown substantially since 2000, the country remains under-capitalized for rooms and services. And if one doesn't get a room in one of the well known hotels, the quality is way under expectation.

This is from a 2012 U.S. Department of State report:

"Pick pocketing is common throughout Poland, is one of the most frequently reported crimes, and most impacts official American citizens. Most pick pocketing incidents occur on public transportation or in areas where there are large crowds, such as train and bus stations. At train stations, where many people are vulnerable carrying cumbersome luggage and other articles, a group of thieves most often jostle and distract their victim while the wallet or billfold is deftly stolen. Some victims have reported the use of sharp instruments to cut through purses and backpacks"

I won't go back until things get better.

Sorry, nothing personal, just facts with more expertise than the big-mouth asking.
My friend, pickpocketing is a much bigger issue in countries like Italy, Greece, Spain. That US report is exaggerated if you ask me. But then again, this is from a country that asks Polish tourists to apply for a visa if they want to visit. So much for being a true "ally".

By the way, if one is going to travel to Poland, use TripAdvisor.ca. Great website- bullshit free.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 01:45 AM   #359
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It's true that architectural gems are magnets for tourists, but that's not the main reason why tourists avoid Poland.
One more thing, I'm almost positive tourism has risen to Polska, just naturally due to it being more open now. And the Euro from last year did help quite a bit, as here in Canada I read mostly positive articles about the tournament.

Germany (ex. Berlin) were not hotspots in the 90's but this gradually changed, especially after the 2006 World Cup.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 02:07 AM   #360
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Neither of them cities attracted much tourists before 1939, nor it would today.
The glass is always half empty for you?

You can't compare the 30's to today in terms of tourism. Marketing and social media have turned the marketing+broadcasting world upside down and how we interact.
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