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Old June 4th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #361
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Interesting pictures from Manila, but they don't belong in this section of SkyScraperCity (Eurpoean classic architecture...)
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Old June 4th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #362
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Interesting pictures from Manila, but they don't belong in this section of SkyScraperCity (Eurpoean classic architecture...)
Intramuros was for the most part European architecture though...
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Old June 4th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #363
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gernika (E) destroyed at 1937 by german bombs at the spanish civil war ( photos source eitb )




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Old June 5th, 2013, 01:10 AM   #364
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My friend, pickpocketing is a much bigger issue in countries like Italy, Greece, Spain. That US report is exaggerated if you ask me. But then again, this is from a country that asks Polish tourists to apply for a visa if they want to visit. So much for being a true "ally".

By the way, if one is going to travel to Poland, use TripAdvisor.ca. Great website- bullshit free.
True enough, and if the impression was that I am "against" Poland, it's not the case. I merely put forth facts as they occur in reality, and I've never, nor any of my colleagues, been inhibited from travelling throughout Central and western europe with rental cars and ease of access to hotels etc. And never been given cautionary warnings about crime and personal safety. All have been in play with travel to Poland and such issues do affect tourism, particularly the tour guide and travel agent industry who are squeamish about being liable for anything that goes wrong. I'm sure the situation will continue to be positively enhanced and the future will be good.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
It's true that architectural gems are magnets for tourists, but that's not the main reason why tourists avoid Poland. Car rental agencies won't allow cars to be driven there due to criminal activity. Theft is rampant. The hotels and restaurants are not up to western standards. Few are bi or tri lingual. Once these issues get improved, more tourists will go.
You're missing the point. In Spain there is 3000-3500 hrs of sun annually. In Poland: 1200-1500. That's why Poland never was, no ever will be, the main tourist destination. Full stop. Deal with it.

Since your knowledge of Europe seems to be a little bit rusty, I'll reiterate in simplified version: Canada never was, no ever will be, a tourist destination compared to California (no offence to Canada). Even if Canadians finally deal with their pickpockets, stop using this strange language which supposed to be English and rental agencies in Maine will allow their cars to be driven outside the U.S. and A. (yeah, they'll allow my elbow)

And if we're talking about the greatest cities lost during WWII I think the main point is to show the lost cultural heritage destroyed as the result of modern warfare, not the financial impact of this loss to tourist industry.

I'd even say that this loss of cultural heritage might be, to some degree, positive from tourist's point of view. I suppose that people form the New World might know Warsaw or Manila only as the most destroyed capitals in the WWII (which is, in some twisted way, interesting and worth seeing - as Auschwitz is). And the only reason to go to Dresden is to see the location of Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five. So to some degree the WWII destruction might even result in increased interest of foreigners.

Does it mean that anyone condone this terrible destruction? Of course not. Not in this thread. I agree with Erbse. We moved far away from the original topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Please, that's clearly NOT the place for such travel discussions here. Thanks.


For me, the biggest losses in Germany are:

- Dresden
- Frankfurt am Main
- Hildesheim & Braunschweig
- Würzburg
- Nuremberg

- Chemnitz
- Pforzheim
- Kassel

- Munich
- Hamburg
- Berlin
- Cologne
Hmmmm, what about Lubeck?
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Old June 5th, 2013, 07:59 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Nice to see you again, rychlik Yes, that monument on the photo above wasn't destroyed. There are few more that were spared. Unfortunately, the oldest monuments were demolished, e.g. monument of Jan of Dukla (1736) and Stanislaw Jablonowski (1752-1754).



These are very beautiful.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 08:08 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by katsuma View Post
The 10 best cities for hotel rooms: 1. Dresden, Germany 2. Hanoi, Vietnam 3. Portland, US 4. Tokyo, Japan 5. Santiago de Compostela, Spain 6. Gdansk, Poland 7. Chicago, US 8. Seattle, US 9. Krakow, Poland 10. Budapest, Hungary

That is nice to see. I have seen so many photos of Krakow that I must visit.

Dresden does have excellent hotels too, as it says.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #368
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German pre-war tourist magnets (on par with cities in Italy (Rome, Venice, Florence), France (Paris, Lyon, Strasbourg) or Spain (Madrid, Sevilla, Barcelona))

1. Nurnberg (The ultimate medieval walled city in pre-war Germany)

http://www.northernrenaissance.org/w...mith-Fig-2.jpg


http://www.f-nietzsche.de/nbg2.jpg

image hosted on flickr

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3217/2...a5425316_z.jpg

2. Dresden (Pearl of baroque - The Florence of the north)

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/dres/bw08.jpg


http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org...0-3155aace.jpg

3. Frankfurt am Main (the timber medieval old-town)

http://www.frankfurt.de/sixcms/media...jpg.429603.jpg


http://www.altfrankfurt.com/Roemerbe...dcoloriert.jpg

4. Berlin (The capital of the kingdom (Prussia) and Empire (Germany))

http://www.vogel-soya.de/Berlin_Altstadt.jpg

image hosted on flickr

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/134/34...7d8_z.jpg?zz=1
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Old June 5th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #369
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[QUOTE=Mruczek;103966351]You're missing the point. In Spain there is 3000-3500 hrs of sun annually. In Poland: 1200-1500. That's why Poland never was, no ever will be, the main tourist destination. Full stop. Deal with it.

Since your knowledge of Europe seems to be a little bit rusty, QUOTE]

No need to resort to offensiveness Mruczek.

And if you think sun is the main reason why people seek out destinations to tour, your cloudy days have made you rusty, both in terms of knowledge and insights of the travel industry. And "dealing with it" is an absurd comment; if one wants to see relavent and valuable history and culture, cloud cover doesn't deter them, safety and ease of accessibily does. I did 'deal with it' twice in the last 10 years and as stated, nothing personal, but traveling to and in Poland is not easy, rain or shine. Sorry.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 01:38 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
True enough, and if the impression was that I am "against" Poland, it's not the case. I merely put forth facts as they occur in reality, and I've never, nor any of my colleagues, been inhibited from travelling throughout Central and western europe with rental cars and ease of access to hotels etc. And never been given cautionary warnings about crime and personal safety. All have been in play with travel to Poland and such issues do affect tourism, particularly the tour guide and travel agent industry who are squeamish about being liable for anything that goes wrong. I'm sure the situation will continue to be positively enhanced and the future will be good.
No worries.
It's a little annoying to read you were cautioned about Poland, as I feel it is much safer than most western European nations. I don't want to sound controversial but Poland does not have any immigrant issues and for example, in its cities there are "no go" areas. Gun crime is very low when compared to western nations. Look at places like London or Paris and now Stockholm. I had a Bulgarian housemate a while back and he and his friends were robbed on the metro in Paris. They were very casual about it, like they did it every day. Personally, I would think twice about going to Paris on my own.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 02:57 AM   #371
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I haven't heard any facts supporting the thesis that hadn't the cities in PL (or in Germany, for instance) been destroyed, they would be main tourist attraction comparing to Costa del Sol (without much cultural value, and frankly speaking, with hideous architecture, but somehow attracting millions of tourist from cloudy and cold Central and North Europe).
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Old June 6th, 2013, 05:57 AM   #372
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Very amusing.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 10:10 AM   #373
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Give it a break guys, finally!

(since I was demodded here this section seems to remain largely unmoderated...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Hmmmm, what about Lubeck?
I don't consider Lübeck a loss. While it indeed was hit, all the essential monuments survived,
and also the main routes and patrician house ensembles in the old town.
It's not far from being a perfectly kept major European old town, on scale with Florence or Amsterdam.

With a few reconstructions in major locations, it could be absolutely perfect.

But still, the whole old town of Lübeck is UNESCO World Heritage already for a reason.

Aerials of Lübeck, Germany:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lubeck_panorama.JPG


source and full resolution
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Old June 6th, 2013, 10:45 AM   #374
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Give it a break guys, finally!

(since I was demodded here this section seems to remain largely unmoderated...)
This lack of discipline encouraged me to continue the offtop.

I'm sorry, now I'll stick to the categorical imperative: Handle nur nach derjenigen Maxime, durch die du zugleich wollen kannst, dass sie ein allgemeines Gesetz werde

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
I don't consider Lübeck a loss. While it indeed was hit, all the essential monuments survived,
and also the main routes and patrician house ensembles in the old town.
It's not far from being a perfectly kept major European old town, on scale with Florence or Amsterdam.

With a few reconstructions in major locations, it could be absolutely perfect.
The question is how do we qualify cities destroyed and later rebuild. It seems to me that in the Polish section of the SSC there is very high opinion of Nurnberg and Wurzburg's reconstruction after the war. But you listed them as lost cities. That's why I asked about Lubeck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
But still, the whole old town of Lübeck is UNESCO World Heritage already for a reason.
So is Warsaw
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Old June 6th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #375
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Lubeck aerials look great.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 07:45 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
No worries.
It's a little annoying to read you were cautioned about Poland, as I feel it is much safer than most western European nations. I don't want to sound controversial but Poland does not have any immigrant issues and for example, in its cities there are "no go" areas. Gun crime is very low when compared to western nations. Look at places like London or Paris and now Stockholm. I had a Bulgarian housemate a while back and he and his friends were robbed on the metro in Paris. They were very casual about it, like they did it every day. Personally, I would think twice about going to Paris on my own.
I agree. Not sure why Poland would be given any warnings about travel, considering the crime rates in the country. There is no way it's more dangerous to travel to Krakow or Warsaw than it is to most other large western cities.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 08:11 AM   #377
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It's not unmodded, I'm watching and handing out infractions.


It's a large forum and I can't read every thread, doesn't mean I don't read anything at all. Next time don't troll guys.

Continue on with pleasant debate.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 09:21 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
Lubeck aerials look great.


Lubeck is a beautiful city. The Marienkirche is a stunningly beautiful cathedral and the town hall and old market area surrounding it is my favorite section.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Mary_nave.jpg







http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...%C3%BCbeck.jpg


Town hall:




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n-20100905.jpg


The city gate





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Holstentor.jpg




And of course you can have the world's best Marzipan




http://www.torzursee.de/luebeck/luebeck10gr.jpg
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Old June 7th, 2013, 04:31 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
The question is how do we qualify cities destroyed and later rebuild. It seems to me that in the Polish section of the SSC there is very high opinion of Nurnberg and Wurzburg's reconstruction after the war. But you listed them as lost cities. That's why I asked about Lubeck.
I'm not sure how anyone can have a high opinion of the Wurzburg reconstruction. Yes, the Residenz was successfully restored, as were the major religious buildings, but visiting Wurzburg today and it would be fairly obvious that it had been almost totally destroyed in WW2. It looks great from a distance but down at street level it's another story. Unfortunately reconstructions rarely focus on individual houses and streets, which are usually the very thing that gives a city its historical atmosphere. Gdansk, Warsaw, Dresden's neumarkt are a few of the exceptions.

My list for the six greatest lost cities in Germany would be, in no particular order:

Frankfurt
Wurzburg
Nuremberg
Braunschweig
Hildesheim

Unfortunately there are so many to choose from. It's hard to include Dresden as so much of its historical centre is being rebuilt giving us at least some idea what it was like pre-war.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #380
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I'm not sure how anyone can have a high opinion of the Wurzburg reconstruction. Yes, the Residenz was successfully restored, as were the major religious buildings, but visiting Wurzburg today and it would be fairly obvious that it had been almost totally destroyed in WW2. It looks great from a distance but down at street level it's another story.
One learns something every day (unfortunately I have never been to Wurzburg). I didn't know about that. I thought Wurzburg was something similar to Rothenburg.

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Originally Posted by wolfpaw View Post
Unfortunately there are so many to choose from. It's hard to include Dresden as so much of its historical centre is being rebuilt giving us at least some idea what it was like pre-war.
That's what puzzles me about this thread. Do we compare the situation in 1945 vs. 1939 or do we compare 2013 and 1939? Because in Dresden the situation is changing every day
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