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Old June 10th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #401
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Old June 10th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #402
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Torun wasn't a German city. It was only occupied by Germany after the partitions in 1790's and during WWII. It always belonged to Poland.
I guess by this measure, Stettin, Danzig, Breslau, Konigsberg, etc are currently occupied cities. Who knew? And how can something belong to something that didn't exist? Interesting.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #403
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Because by most measures, Münster was one of the best reconstruction works by far.
I'm interested: was it reconstructed soon after the war or is it Dresden-case? Or both of them?
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Old June 10th, 2013, 10:26 PM   #404
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Quote:
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Torun wasn't destroyed during WWII
Right.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 10:27 PM   #405
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Warsaw





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Old June 11th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #406
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Because by most measures, Münster was one of the best reconstruction works by far.
Well, I was there and yes there are quite a good number of buildings and streets well reconstructed. But somehow I felt that something was wrong. Entering the cathedral and we immediately feel that many things are missing. On the ground around it was the same feeling. It is something that didn't happened to me in Munich or Augsburg, for instance, but more on the way of Cologne or Würzburg.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 09:02 AM   #407
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I guess by this measure, Stettin, Danzig, Breslau, Konigsberg, etc are currently occupied cities. Who knew? And how can something belong to something that didn't exist? Interesting.
You're right, they are "kind of" occupied
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Old June 11th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #408
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I think the greatest city lost during WWII was Warsaw
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Old June 11th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #409
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As has been showed on this web even the centers of industrial cities like Duisburg, Dortmund, Bochum, Wupertal, Recklinghausen, Krefeldt, Stettin and Düsseldorf were quite nice and impressive. Chemnitz had besides even very impressive Gründerzeit areas. Not to forget Augsburg, Halle, Erfurt, Meissen, Meiningen, Eisenach, Konstanz, Bautzen aso.
If Bautzen (Budziszyn) was lost indeed, I really praise the people who rebuild it after the war. Because it is one of the most picturesque historical cities I've ever seen
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Old June 11th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #410
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As has been showed on this web even the centers of industrial cities like Duisburg, Dortmund, Bochum, Wupertal, Recklinghausen, Krefeldt, Stettin and Düsseldorf were quite nice and impressive. Chemnitz had besides even very impressive Gründerzeit areas. Not to forget Augsburg, Halle, Erfurt, Meissen, Meiningen, Eisenach, Konstanz, Bautzen aso.
Excellent point and agree completely. The industrial expansion in these areas during the late 19th century not only did not disturb the original and beautiful city centers, but expanded during the height of the Grunderzeit movement which created lovely residential and commerical areas all around the city centers and industrial areas.

Bautzen, by comparison to almost every other bombed target in Germany, was spared massive destruction. Much like its neighbor Gorlitz. Rather than the 80-90% mass destruction we saw in other cities, Bautzen experienced destruction at the 15-20% level. So its current status is largely original and the rebuilding was much easier and more reasonable to accomplish.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
I guess by this measure, Stettin, Danzig, Breslau, Konigsberg, etc are currently occupied cities. Who knew? And how can something belong to something that didn't exist? Interesting.


Dear keepthepast, as you bother to speak about "something that didn't exist", do you know how far back goes the statehood of Poland and Germany?

Also, do you know who (which ruler) founded Wrocław, who established the first bishopric there and when Wrocław became part of the Kingdom of Prussia? Do you know when Gdańsk was founded and how come it became populated with German-speaking settlers in 14th century? And same with Szczecin?
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Old June 12th, 2013, 02:26 AM   #412
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Dear keepthepast, as you bother to speak about "something that didn't exist", do you know how far back goes the statehood of Poland and Germany?

Also, do you know who (which ruler) founded Wrocław, who established the first bishopric there and when Wrocław became part of the Kingdom of Prussia? Do you know when Gdańsk was founded and how come it became populated with German-speaking settlers in 14th century? And same with Szczecin?
As stated, by your measures every 'original' group that populated a location is the rightful possessor of the area, even if the origins go back many hundreds of years. I stand by my premise that such a position is absurd in modern thinking. No offense, nothing personal. Just absurd.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 04:58 AM   #413
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War-time losses

Poland suffered enormous material losses during World War II. According to estimates, about 37 percent of the national property was destroyed. To give an example, industrial property losses are estimated at as high as 60 percent of the pre-war assets, 50 percent of the infrastructure was destroyed and 43 percent of historical substance. Many cities were turned into rubble and smaller towns and villages were destroyed. Warsaw represents a unique and an extremely tragic case. Counted among Warsaw’s losses are 10,455 buildings, including 923 historical structures (94% of the pre-war total), 25 churches, 14 libraries (i.a. the National Library), 145 schools, as well as Warsaw University and Warsaw Technical University. Over a million inhabitants lost all their possessions. Detailed data on private and public property loss, including works of art, cultural heritage and science artefacts is not available. The exact extent of losses of private and public property, including works of art, cultural landmarks and scientific objects, is not known. A historical committee set up in 2004 assessed the total loss at USD 54.6 billion or more (calculated at the 2004 USD/PLN exchange rate). Confronted by the enormous scale of destruction and problems with establishing the legal status of a significant part of real property, the post-war authorities decided that taking over private property was a necessary condition of effectively rebuilding the country.

http://propertyrestitution.pl/Histor...9-1945,17.html

http://propertyrestitution.pl/Histor...9-1945,17.html
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Old June 12th, 2013, 07:29 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
I guess by this measure, Stettin, Danzig, Breslau, Konigsberg, etc are currently occupied cities. Who knew? And how can something belong to something that didn't exist? Interesting.
Trolls be trollin.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 09:54 AM   #415
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But he's right.

Anyway, it's not worth fighting about this. Not here, not again.

So just stop it.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by erbse View Post
But he's right.

Anyway, it's not worth fighting about this. Not here, not again.

So just stop it.
This is kind of hypocrisy of yours when you loudly support the opinion (and not the fact) of one side of the fence and then you tell everyone to stop arguing. Just saying.

Anyway, I got to agree that Warsaw Saw War as the first hand victim. It's good that we see some of the city back. But we all wish for more. Hope the Saski and Bruhla Palace will get the funding to come alive.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 09:44 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
As stated, by your measures every 'original' group that populated a location is the rightful possessor of the area, even if the origins go back many hundreds of years. I stand by my premise that such a position is absurd in modern thinking. No offense, nothing personal. Just absurd.
No offence taken. I was talking about the previously mentioned cities (when they were established and by whom, when they were populated with German settlers, etc.) and not about the "original" ethnic area/range as such, which on the territory of present-day Poland (except Masuria) and Eastern Germany (up to Elbe River) was Slavic.

And again, if in relation to Poland you ask "how can something belong to something that didn't exist?", then it would be quite a failed shot, as Germany hadn't existed as a state until 1871, whereby the statehood of Poland dates back to 966 (with the exception of the Partitions).

PS. Just to be fair here, I must admit I'd have a little problem with clear identification of the city of Toruń, as an old Slavic settlement had existed on the site since ca. 9th century, the modern (medieval) city was founded by Teutonic Knights in 13th century, it was part of Poland between 1466 and 1793, 1793-1807 occupied by Prussia, 1807-1815 part of the Duchy of Warsaw, 1815-1918 part of Prussia/Germany, then back to Poland...
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Last edited by katsuma; June 13th, 2013 at 10:32 PM. Reason: (update re Toruń & Duchy of Warsaw)
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Old June 13th, 2013, 03:28 AM   #418
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War-time losses

Poland suffered enormous material losses during World War II. According to estimates, about 37 percent of the national property was destroyed. To give an example, industrial property losses are estimated at as high as 60 percent of the pre-war assets, 50 percent of the infrastructure was destroyed and 43 percent of historical substance. Many cities were turned into rubble and smaller towns and villages were destroyed. Warsaw represents a unique and an extremely tragic case. Counted among Warsaw’s losses are 10,455 buildings, including 923 historical structures (94% of the pre-war total), 25 churches, 14 libraries (i.a. the National Library), 145 schools, as well as Warsaw University and Warsaw Technical University. Over a million inhabitants lost all their possessions. Detailed data on private and public property loss, including works of art, cultural heritage and science artefacts is not available. The exact extent of losses of private and public property, including works of art, cultural landmarks and scientific objects, is not known. A historical committee set up in 2004 assessed the total loss at USD 54.6 billion or more (calculated at the 2004 USD/PLN exchange rate). Confronted by the enormous scale of destruction and problems with establishing the legal status of a significant part of real property, the post-war authorities decided that taking over private property was a necessary condition of effectively rebuilding the country.

http://propertyrestitution.pl/Histor...9-1945,17.html

http://propertyrestitution.pl/Histor...9-1945,17.html
Here is my quick resume how this damages were distributed among 14 largest cities in the 2nd Polish Republic (Statistical Yearbook 1939, source: 1931 census plus annual migration ande natural flows balances):
Warsaw (1289 thousand of citizens),
Łódź (672),
Lwów (318), today Lviv, outside Poland
Poznań (272)
Kraków (259)
Wilno (209), today Vilnius, outside Poland
Bydgoszcz (141)
Częstochowa (138)
Katowice (134)
Sosnowiec (130)
Lublin (122)
Gdynia (120)
Chorzów (110)
Białystok (107).

Warsaw - destroyed "by instalments" 1939, 1940, 1942, 1943, 1944-45. Total damage: over 80%, including over 90% in the centre and the Old Town.

Łódź - minor damages.

Lwów - some damages during bombardment and fight (1939, 1941, 1944). Estimated damage: 10%?

Poznań: large damages inflicted during siege of Festung Posen (Jan-Feb 1945): estimated damage: over 55%, including over 80% in the centre and the Old Town.

Kraków - minor damages.

Wilno - some damages during fight, especially in 1944. Large damages in the Old Town, some estimates up to 50%.

Bydgoszcz: some damages during fight, especially in 1945. Estimated damage: 10%? but of large cultural importance (couple of landmarks of the city were lost due to Nazi "re-planning" of the city in 1940 and 1945 burns.

Częstochowa - to my knowledge minor damages (Soviets entered the city by surprise on 17th Jan, 1945 and completely paralised defenders who were swiftly pushed out westwards).

Katowice - to my knowledge minor damages (some renthouses, especially on the Market Square, were burned in 1945)

Sosnowiec - to my knowledge minor damages.

Lublin - some damages during bombardment in 1939, Nazi "re-planning" of the Jewish quarter and fierce (but quick) street fight in 1944. Estimated damage: 20%???

Gdynia - minor damages in the city. The port, however, was reduced to smouldering rubble (90% destriction plus German battleship "Gneisenau" scuttled at the entrance to the port).

Chorzów - minor damages.

Białystok - heavy Stalingrad-like fights during 1944. The estimates of damage vary from 50 to 80%.

Of smaller cities in Poland (60...80k citizens) I can say that Tarnopol (Tarnopil, Ukraine) was quite terribly destroyed during large panzer battle in the outskirts of the city (1944), Kielce, Radom and Toruń survived more-or-less in good shape (Soviet troops forced out Germans during January Offensive, 1945). Grudziądz was a Festung and was terribly battered.

If someone feels like adding information or correct my mistakes, I'd be grateful.

From the 2nd Polish Republic I'd certainly name as lost: Warsaw, Poznań, Białystok, Grudziądz and Tarnopol.
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Old June 13th, 2013, 04:38 AM   #419
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I'm surprised to learn Poznan was badly hit in the war.

Further testament to the expertise of Polish reconstruction.



And Grudziadz? To me it always looked like a very rustic and unique town.

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Old June 13th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #420
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Indeed Grudziądz was nicely rebuilt .






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