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Old October 30th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #461
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This is sadly true. I have mentioned this before on this thread and others that my ancestors' cemeteries in Marienburg and Marienwerder were bulldozed after the war. The headstones were either ground up for gravel, used for road pavers, or simply discarded in nearby forests. The graves were also dug up, remains violated and set afire.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #462
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We never fully recovered from WW2 culturally in Europe.

To me what is truely sad is not the destruction - that is in our nature. It is the complete shit we replaced many of the beautiful buildings with.

In the UK the city council planners were appalling and I suppose committed a type of cultural rape. We are lucky that Barcelona survived even though it was bombed and many of the Italian cities. Nice came out OK as did Paris etc.

The German cities were a loss but considering how the majority willfully condoned the redecoration of most of Europe with blood and rubble, sympathy is at a premium.

Most the buildings will never return. With them, Europe lost its soul and America had the opportunity to become a super power while we recovered.

What amazes me now, is even with this knowledge, the majority of countries erect absolutely appalling buildings with minimal style or character. The world is definitely becoming a very ugly place.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 05:24 AM   #463
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The German cities were a loss but considering how the majority willfully condoned the redecoration of most of Europe with blood and rubble, sympathy is at a premium.
.
Comments like this are not only wrong, they are reprehensible. My own families' history is littered with the willful destruction of lives and communities by the British in Acadia. Does this make the destruction of Coventry Cathedral any less worthy of sympathy? Frankly, the same could be said for the French and the utter destruction and decimation of the German states in Thirty Years War.

Destruction and murder are evil no matter who does it and no nation gets a free pass.

It's time to move on.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 06:14 AM   #464
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Comments like this are not only wrong, they are reprehensible. My own families' history is littered with the willful destruction of lives and communities by the British in Acadia. Does this make the destruction of Coventry Cathedral any less worthy of sympathy? Frankly, the same could be said for the French and the utter destruction and decimation of the German states in Thirty Years War.

Destruction and murder are evil no matter who does it and no nation gets a free pass.

It's time to move on.

I understand where you're coming from but the unprecedented atrocities of WWII and destruction are still quite fresh in most peoples minds (especially in Central/Eastern Europe). You have to be realistic. Should Poles or Russians feel sympathy for lost German cities and lives?

And no, I am not trying to start a controversial topic. Just had to give my 2 cents.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #465
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Should Poles or Russians feel sympathy for lost German cities and lives?
Why not? That would just show some sort of dignity. After all its in most case innocent people died by the bombings. That "willfully" part wasnt the majority. The frightened "eyes closed" was. I think you all know how dictatorships work. Nazi regime wasnt different in that way.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 09:10 AM   #466
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This is sadly true. I have mentioned this before on this thread and others that my ancestors' cemeteries in Marienburg and Marienwerder were bulldozed after the war. The headstones were either ground up for gravel, used for road pavers, or simply discarded in nearby forests. The graves were also dug up, remains violated and set afire.
That sort of thing has always struck me as being quintessentially classless.

Indeed even the Soviets tended not to go out of their way to desecrate graves in their half of East Prussia.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #467
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That sort of thing has always struck me as being quintessentially classless.

Well, Commies are classless...
In Poland they were mostly destroyed 25 years after the war, in the early 70s. Not all of course, the Masurian, Kashubian and, ironically, Jewish cemeteries often still exist.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 01:43 PM   #468
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Manila, Philippines















Decades after the war, instead of rebuilding, decay and poverty seeped through what glorious European colonial architecture once occupied. And this is a source of sadness to many Filipinos who are aware of how beautiful this now-gritty and chaotic city once was.

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Old December 16th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #469
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I understand where you're coming from but the unprecedented atrocities of WWII and destruction are still quite fresh in most peoples minds (especially in Central/Eastern Europe). You have to be realistic. Should Poles or Russians feel sympathy for lost German cities and lives?

And no, I am not trying to start a controversial topic. Just had to give my 2 cents.
Fresh is relative. And, yes, i believe some Russians and Poles have moved on. The point is, again, comments about guilt and whether the destruction of one place has more significance over another because of politics are unproductive. The only victims, as the World War 2 generation is passing quickly, are those of us born after the war who are denied the cultural and historic beauty of the places lost which i think is the point of the thread...not rehashing guilt and worn out narratives.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #470
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Manila, Philippines








Decades after the war, instead of rebuilding, decay and poverty seeped through what glorious European colonial architecture once occupied. And this is a source of sadness to many Filipinos who are aware of how beautiful this now-gritty and chaotic city once was.

Do you have before pictures of these locations too? Thanks!
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Old December 16th, 2013, 08:18 PM   #471
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I understand where you're coming from but the unprecedented atrocities of WWII and destruction are still quite fresh in most peoples minds (especially in Central/Eastern Europe). You have to be realistic. Should Poles or Russians feel sympathy for lost German cities and lives?
Of course they should. Especially since lots of destruction of then German cities affects negatively today's Polish cities
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Old January 8th, 2014, 06:51 AM   #472
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Of course they should. Especially since lots of destruction of then German cities affects negatively today's Polish cities
Ouch.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 07:20 PM   #473
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I understand where you're coming from but the unprecedented atrocities of WWII and destruction are still quite fresh in most peoples minds (especially in Central/Eastern Europe). You have to be realistic. Should Poles or Russians feel sympathy for lost German cities and lives?

And no, I am not trying to start a controversial topic. Just had to give my 2 cents.
I agree that we must move on, we must forgive and look to the future. Sympathy for Germans is essential to this healing process, I regularly invite students from Germany to my home for exchange programs and it's always a positive experience. Trust is rebuilt step by step, and I know there are efforts on the German side to reach out to Poles and others, but there need to be many more efforts like this.

Germans of today who are not responsible for what happened in WWII need to understand why it is so difficult to put the unprecedented destruction of Warsaw especially behind us entirely. And yes war is war, but there are things that are appalling even by those low standards such as the unnecessary destruction of Dresden, the levelling of Warsaw, the irreversible destruction of a nation's heritage and the massacres of innocent civilians.

On the subject of cities, what's hard to accept by Poles and many outside Poland who know well the subject of the Warsaw Uprising and the subsequent destruction (made glattraziert as per Hitler's orders) of the city is that men like Heinz Reinefarth among others who was directly involved in the Wola district massacres of 40,000 civilians (men, women, children especially) in the most brutal manner went on to have normal lives, Reinefarth was elected to the parliament of Schleswig-Holstein in 1962 and efforts by Poland to extradite him to stand trial were rebuffed by West Germany citing lack of evidence, which is ridiculous. Nearly 800,000 people out of 1.3 million were killed in Warsaw and or in camps outside Warsaw, most in a similarly direct brutal manner, this was unprecedented. Alexandra Richie's recent book on the uprising provides a very detailed account of the destruction of Warsaw for those interested.

On these forums we are very focussed on the physical city, but we forget about the people that created the culture that animated these walls and their fate during WWII.

Multitudes of innocent Germans suffered tremendously at the hands of the Allies as well and it is fair to say that today innocent Germans continue to pay for what Hitler, Himmler and the likes of Reinefarth and Oskar Dirlewanger did...and it is unfair, so on a person-to-person level I never bring it up, but on these anonymous forums it needs to be heard and added to the collective consciousness and filed away where appropriate, so we can move forward.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old January 9th, 2014, 12:50 PM   #474
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I agree that we must move on, we must forgive and look to the future. Sympathy for Germans is essential to this healing process, I regularly invite students from Germany to my home for exchange programs and it's always a positive experience. Trust is rebuilt step by step, and I know there are efforts on the German side to reach out to Poles and others, but there need to be many more efforts like this.

Germans of today who are not responsible for what happened in WWII need to understand why it is so difficult to put the unprecedented destruction of Warsaw especially behind us entirely.
Unwillingness of Warsaw authorities to reconstruct few remaining historical objects, appalling standards of city planning and doctrinairism of conservationist office put together mean that Poles are to blame more and more for drawbacks and shortcomings of Warsaw. Of course moaning is always the best idea (which is also visible in Dresden thread, where plenty of users are trolling against Mr Churchill).

Making efforts to restore parts of former beauty is much harder. I am afraid, that unprecedented destruction of Warsaw in 1944 is becoming an alibi for incapable architects and plannists.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 06:54 PM   #475
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I agree, it should not be used as an alibi, there exist many opportunities for restoration and reconstruction, and this will add immeasurably to the healing process, it's just that the conservators office moves too slowly and is dominated by a modernist ideology who are intent on not falsifying Warsaw's destruction, rarely permitting reconstruction. Also, the budget the office gets for a city of this size is far too small, a joke really. The only way to change this is to organize and apply political pressure, picket the conservator's office. A minority of Varsovians got heavily involved in the referendum and it brought about some positive changes, is their energy spent already, why not continue and now apply pressure to much maligned conservator's office.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old November 11th, 2014, 04:52 PM   #476
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Some of the structures affected by the war (MANILA, PHILIPPINES)


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Old November 11th, 2014, 04:59 PM   #477
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Santo Domingo Church, Intramuros

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Old November 11th, 2014, 05:00 PM   #478
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War torn University of Santo Tomas, Santo Domingo Church and Colegio de Santa Rosa after the Liberation of Manila, 1945. The statue of Fr. Benavides survived and was transferred to the present UST campus:


What Could Have Been a Strong Reminder to Filipinos, the Facade of the Old Sto. Domingo was Torn Down by the Americans
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Old November 11th, 2014, 05:08 PM   #479
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San Fransisco Church:



The Intact Facade of San Francisco Could Have Still Been Restored

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Old November 11th, 2014, 05:20 PM   #480
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Legislative Building, Manila



American officers pose in front of the ruined building.
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