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Old March 30th, 2015, 05:10 AM   #501
keepthepast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
the reconstructed old town of Warsaw and Gdansk, and to a lesser degree Wroclaw, are just one side of the coin. The other side are destroyed towns, mostly former German ones, .
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Ever heard about World War II?

.
Every heard of history pre 1919? The previous 200 YEARS of Silesia being German was the time when the region developed architecturally and culturally....by mostly German ideals and craftsmen.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:59 AM   #502
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Ever heard about World War II?
Yes, but large parts of Silesia for example weren't affected by WW2, and the cultural heritage is lost nevertheless. Just compare the German and Polish parts of Upper Lusatia, or the Czech and Polish part of the Karkonosze/Krkonose mountains. All three Commie countries, all regions with the same fate in WW2, but they all look completely different today.


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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Brick was taken mostly from destroyed or damaged buildings. Although it would be certainly better to reconstruct them in-situ, it cannot be compared with relatively rare examples of wanton vandalism (such as Legnica Old Town).
In case of Wroclaw (Thum) and Szczecin (Roos) it's well documented that these action further destroyed the cities.


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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
That's another thing. And although lots of Silesian art pieces should be returned to Silesia it doesn't change the fact that moving art pieces from one church to other is hardly comparable to vandalism.
If you completely empty churches and museums you destroy the cultural landscape of a region... and that's exactly what the Commies had in mind.


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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
Legnica is indeed the best known example of premeditated destruction of large part of old town fabric. But also the only one done is such a large scale.
Jelenia Góra is completely different example, where old buildings were assessed as not fit for repair and as the result dismantled and reconstructed anew.
Jelenia Gora happened 20 years after the war, which the town survived without damages. Houses like this usually don't deteriorate in just 20 years. And in the 70s it continued, when the Protestant cemetery, the most valuable Baroque cemetery between Dresden and Wroclaw, was destroyed. I'm not sure, but wheren't the Baroque lattices used at one of Warsaws cemeteries?


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At the same time you are missing the two most important reasons for terrible state of historical monuments in Poland: firstly, the appalling management of residential houses, quite typical for Communist rejection of private ownership (especially of the large rent-houses), secondly, the modenist obsession with "city revitalistation" defined as widening streets, forcing more cars into the central areas and so on.
And you forget the third important reason for the terrible state of historic monuments: the Polonization and Degermanization in the so called "recovered territories". Again: the Commie plans to get rid of the German heritage are well documented. It's no accident that 2/3 of Silesias castles and palaces are gone today, or that, AFAIK, not a single garden landscape in Silesia survived (most gardens lost their status or were redesignated to forests... the most irritating example here is Muskauer Park/Park Mużakowski).

I don't want to bash Poland. I know it was a very difficult situation for the country. But the deeply ideologic approach of the Polish Commies, with propaganda projects on one side and widespread destructions on the other, can't be used as a good example for others to follow.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 11:34 AM   #503
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In case of Wroclaw (Thum) and Szczecin (Roos) it's well documented that these action further destroyed the cities.
Any chance to have sources about Szczecin please?
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Old March 30th, 2015, 02:17 PM   #504
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Zadar, Croatia

Pre-war population: ~20,000
80% of historic core completely destroyed

Zadar (it. Zara) was historic capital of Dalmatia, with many historical monuments and medieval neighborhoods. Between the two wars, Zadar was isolated from the rest of Yugoslavia as a small Italian enclave. During the war, city was heavily bombed by the allies. Considering that main port was located just along the peninsula, a lot of ordnance fell directly over the medieval centre, destroying completely aprox. 80% of all the buildings.

Despite still being a touristic center and medieval powerhouse, Zadar never restored its former beauty.

Before the war:














[IMG]http://i58.************/351s8t1.jpg[/IMG]
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Old March 30th, 2015, 02:25 PM   #505
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After bombing runs:

[IMG]http://i60.************/10pzour.jpg[/IMG]









[IMG]http://i42.************/2lsfmnl.jpg[/IMG]


pics taken from thread [Zadar] - Old photos
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Old April 12th, 2015, 02:57 PM   #506
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Warsaw Philharmonic Hall

lost 1939


today
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...arodowa_05.jpg
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Old April 12th, 2015, 06:48 PM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Every heard of history pre 1919? The previous 200 YEARS of Silesia being German was the time when the region developed architecturally and culturally....by mostly German ideals and craftsmen.
The matter of the discussion isn't who developed the region, but why some of this legacy was lost and what was the primary cause for that.

In order to make this discussion beneficial for you, a few basic facts about Silesia:

1919 hasn't much to do with WWII. WWII was 1939-45. And 1919 hasn't much to do with Silesia, either, especially Lower S. Actually, while discussing architectural heritage, I'd say interbellum period (1918-39) in Silesia is exceptionally interesting.

"Previous 200 years of German Silesia" wasn't exactly 200 years. If you define "German" by ethnical majority of the region - it was far more (at least in the Lower S.), if by political adherence - far less.

"Previous 200 years of development" wasn't exactly 200 years either. Silesia (especially Lower) was exceptionally well developed already in Middle Ages and reached its peak just before 30-Years' War. On the other hand, actually 18th century wasn't particularly good time for Silesia with one long sequence of epidemies, fires, wars between Austria and Prussian state and fiscal burden.

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
Yes, but large parts of Silesia for example weren't affected by WW2, and the cultural heritage is lost nevertheless. Just compare the German and Polish parts of Upper Lusatia, or the Czech and Polish part of the Karkonosze/Krkonose mountains. All three Commie countries, all regions with the same fate in WW2, but they all look completely different today.
ORLY? Between Czech and Polish part of Sudety there isn't much of a difference (apart from not-exactly-the-same language, currency, alcoholic customs and density of road signs). Between Polish and German - there wasn't much of a difference in 1989, there is now. Why? As American say: "Money talks, bullshit walks". You are comparing country famous for its economic and insitutional lagging behind with the country, which is among the strongest, healthiest and wealthiest in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
In case of Wroclaw (Thum) and Szczecin (Roos) it's well documented that these action further destroyed the cities.
Yes, now you've put it into context.

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
If you completely empty churches and museums you destroy the cultural landscape of a region... and that's exactly what the Commies had in mind.
Neither "Commies had in mind" (conservationist policy was almost single-handedly led by Zachwatowicz), nor "completely empty". In some cases the pieces of arts from particularly desolated churches or small museums moved to larger ones. It often happened within region (that's why plenty of arts of Wrocław's National Museum or Museum on the Olsztyn's Castle are former collections from mansions of local aristocracy), sometimes - regrettably - they were moved to Warsaw. IIRC in 3 (three) Warsaw churches there are presently Silesian barrocco altars and there is lots of Silesian pieces of art in Warsaw National Museum.

Of course, most of it should be returned, but its effect on cultural landscape is close to nil. It is rather food for everyday bashing between Warsaw and Wrocław's National Museums

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
Jelenia Gora happened 20 years after the war, which the town survived without damages. Houses like this usually don't deteriorate in just 20 years.
Probably they were in terrible shape before the war. In most of European cities inner cities were deteriorating into slum. That's why all this madness called "modernist revitalisation of cities" were introduced after WWII. With terrible consequences.

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
And in the 70s it continued, when the Protestant cemetery, the most valuable Baroque cemetery between Dresden and Wroclaw, was destroyed.
Now you've mentioned probably the biggest crime against historical monuments which occured in after-war Poland. Nearly all Protestant cemeteries were either destroyed or planted. And that was happening especially intensively throughout 1970s.

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
I'm not sure, but wheren't the Baroque lattices used at one of Warsaws cemeteries?
More probably dismantled and thrown out to waste dump

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
And you forget the third important reason for the terrible state of historic monuments: the Polonization and Degermanization in the so called "recovered territories".
It was manifested mostly by dismantling German inscriptions in the walls, commercials, city names, all that stuff that is connected with words. That's it. It didn't mean though, that anyone plan to destroy buildings established during German times. Not to mention that it was far beyond technical possibilities of poverty-stricken and terribly managed Communist Poland.

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
Again: the Commie plans to get rid of the German heritage are well documented. It's no accident that 2/3 of Silesias castles and palaces are gone today (...)
I reiterate: ever heard about WWII?

Or maybe more down-to-business: any idea what was happening to most of mansions when Red Army was stationing nearby?

Also it is hard to find any useful function for mansion in command-centrally planned economy. If it's of any consollation: percentage of ruined mansions in the "old Poland" (i.e. before 1939) is quite similar to the "Recovered Territories"

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
Again: the Commie plans to get rid of the German heritage are well documented.
All the heritage? It would essentially require destruction 95% of all existing buildings. AFAIK such plans were never considered, not to mention implemented. Even stupidity of Communists in Poland is finite value

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
I don't want to bash Poland. I know it was a very difficult situation for the country. But the deeply ideologic approach of the Polish Commies (...)
Thanks to that deeply ideological approach of Polish conservationists in 1950s (which Communist, after hesitation, eventually accepted) large portions of historical old towns (Gdańsk, Wrocław, Opole, Olsztyn) were reconstructed in the first place. Otherwise they would be "rebuilt" in the same way Coventry, Cologne or Le Havre were. Unfortunately these were the main intellectual concepts of architecture at that time.

And had it not been for liberalisation of the regime and accepting radical modernism in Communist countries (1954-56) probably also smaller cities in Western Poland would be treated the same way (in 1960s). But the Corbusierists came and in reality of command economy proved to be extremely harmful. That's why reconstruction of smaller cities was done in "modern" fashion and in most cases it failed totally. There are just a few cases where rebuilding was done by at least a bit individualised projects (Malbork by Szczepan Baum, 1965) and even less, where modernism and historism were nicely combined (Jawor's Market Square houses with archades).

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Originally Posted by Sapere Aude View Post
I don't want to bash Poland. I know it was a very difficult situation for the country. But the deeply ideologic approach of the Polish Commies, with propaganda projects on one side and widespread destructions on the other, can't be used as a good example for others to follow.
Give credit where it's due. You are absolutely correct that large portion of cultural heritage of Silesia, Pomerania and so on were destroyed. And it happened to large degree because of Polish incompetence, inefficiency, poverty, low cultural level of some of the settlers, in some cases malevolence. Still, it doesn't mean that there was particular evil plan behind all of this. And certainly, while assessing the volume of post-war destruction, "1939" is not a particularly good starting point.
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Old May 4th, 2015, 10:18 PM   #508
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Looks great! I didn't know that Poznań had such a great waterfront. Anybody knows how this place looks now?
It looks just like THIS*:

* - be careful, it's different.. and don't look for the river
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Old May 8th, 2015, 02:51 PM   #509
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new special film - Berlin after war in color

Sensational footage ! Berlin and Potsdam after the apocalypse in color and HD - 30 Minutes version !

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Old May 21st, 2015, 08:14 PM   #510
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Just imagine how much more beautiful European cities would be, if the war had never happened. Incredible pictures.
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Old May 21st, 2015, 11:12 PM   #511
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Danube bridges of Budapest after the war...

Budapest, the Hungarian capital has eight older bridges over the Danube, which are results of development of a one-hundred-year-long period. The first of them is the well-known Chain Bridge, which was constructed in the middle of the 19th century.

All of the bridges were destroyed during 1945 by the German Army.

1. The Chain Bridge, designed by William Tierney Clark, completed and opened in 1849. Destroyed in 1945.



2. Freedom Bridge (originally named Franz Josef bridge)

The 330-meter long Freedom (Franz Josef) bridge, which was constructed in 1894-96 was the fourth bridge to span the Danube River. Destroyed in 1945.



3. Margaret Bridge

Margaret Bridge is the second permanent bridge of Budapest, a distinguished example of French Neo-Baroque bridge-building in Hungary. Its construction was started twenty years after the inauguration of the Chain Bridge. It connects Szent István Boulevard and Margit Boulevard, also touching the Margaret Island.

Before the war:



...and after:



4. Elizabeth Bridge

The bridge was the largest suspension bridge at the time of its first construction in 1898-1903. It was inaugurated on 10 October 1903. Destroyed in 1945.

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Old May 22nd, 2015, 12:57 AM   #512
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Sensational footage ! Berlin and Potsdam after the apocalypse in color and HD - 30 Minutes version !
Thank you for posting, Ludi. I wonder, were any of the U-bahn lines operating in July 1945? Were the people with the carts along the highway to Potsdam victims of the expulsions?

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Old May 22nd, 2015, 01:09 AM   #513
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Sensational footage ! Berlin and Potsdam after the apocalypse in color and HD - 30 Minutes version !

Thank you for posting. This was difficult to watch. I'm not sure which is worse...the destruction and suffering in the images or the chauvinism expressed on these pages by some. That Berlin was able to recover AT ALL is remarkable.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 07:01 PM   #514
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I don't understand why the cathedral at Coventry wasn't put back as it was. More of it survived the war than a number of other buildings that were eventually restored, including the tower and all the exterior walls, which are nowerdays attached to the the 1950s catherdral, which has all the aesthetic charm and spiritual aura of an egg box...

The rest of the town lost some attractive buildings, Victorian streets, etc. making way for hideous concrete boxes.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 07:43 PM   #515
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Municipal Theatre of Corfu in Greece, destroyed during a Luftwaffe aerial bombardment in 1943.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munici...eatre_of_Corfu
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Old August 12th, 2015, 07:29 PM   #516
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Just out of curiosity, in many of these post-bombing photos, one sees the hollowed out shells of masonry buildings dominating the cityscape. How easily were these repaired? Could they have been salvaged for a reasonable cost, but modernist planning preferred a clean slate? Or was restoration prohibitively expensive and thus demolition preferred.

It's interesting because while the architecturally significant old towns receive much attention/restoration, larger swaths of 19th century urban fabric of masonry construction, while also beautiful, were probably too common to warrant preservation for preservation's sake.
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Old August 12th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #517
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Just out of curiosity, in many of these post-bombing photos, one sees the hollowed out shells of masonry buildings dominating the cityscape. How easily were these repaired? Could they have been salvaged for a reasonable cost, but modernist planning preferred a clean slate? Or was restoration prohibitively expensive and thus demolition preferred.

It's interesting because while the architecturally significant old towns receive much attention/restoration, larger swaths of 19th century urban fabric of masonry construction, while also beautiful, were probably too common to warrant preservation for preservation's sake.
The number one reason was expense and a close second was expediency. The warring nations had little money, and in the case of the most destroyed nations, no time to artfully rebuild much at all. They needed housing and infrastructure fast and cheap. People continued to die after the fighting stopped from tons of issues relating to living amongst the ruins, and this had to be dealt with.

That said, the shells could have been used in some cases to rebuild and act as outer walls of rebuilt structures. But not always. The heat from fire and compromised stone/bricks from bomb concussions usually made the shells unworthy of being used again.
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Old August 13th, 2015, 12:20 AM   #518
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Hi,
I will appreciate any help in identifying the building and the place on this pre-WW2 photo (approximately from the early 1930's).
The photo is from my family archive and the people who are photographed were living in Poland before the war (The left is my great-grandmother's brother. Perished in the holocaust), so at first I assumed that this is some old Polish city gate. The problem is that I went through all the known gates in Poland (with the help of Wikipedia), but still couldn't identify this place.
Can someone please try to guess, according to the style and the surroundings, what city it might be (In Poland or maybe in another European country)?
I am very eager to solve this.

Edit - And then I decided to check about France, and voila - the gate on the photograph is Porte Cailhau in the city of Bordeaux. Pretty surprising for me I'd say.
(I wanted to delete this message completely, but couldn't find how to do it, so nevermind).

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Old August 13th, 2015, 03:26 AM   #519
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The number one reason was expense and a close second was expediency. The warring nations had little money, and in the case of the most destroyed nations, no time to artfully rebuild much at all. They needed housing and infrastructure fast and cheap. People continued to die after the fighting stopped from tons of issues relating to living amongst the ruins, and this had to be dealt with.

That said, the shells could have been used in some cases to rebuild and act as outer walls of rebuilt structures. But not always. The heat from fire and compromised stone/bricks from bomb concussions usually made the shells unworthy of being used again.
Are there any cases of this repair occurring en masse? Or are a majority of the prewar apartment houses in German cities just the ones that happened to withstand the bombing?
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Old August 13th, 2015, 04:49 AM   #520
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I am unaware of "en masse" rebuilding of neighborhoods or larger areas up to and including entire towns/cities if the structures were destroyed during the war. Most of the rebuilding was isolated to special buildings, but the typical Wilhelmine blocks of apartments that were gone, were gone for good. Recently we have seen some notable restorations, but the current inventory of pre war structures is a fairly small percent.
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