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Old January 3rd, 2016, 10:42 PM   #561
AleksLazarevic
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@erbse

I was referring to things like the Hohenzollern castle.

@Worldtraveler79 I said cities, not towns.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 12:31 AM   #562
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cathedral could have survived in the first place, if it wasn't for 19th century carcass added to the original structure, carcass, which melted and caused the collapse of the roof. How does it go: "Better is the enemy of good"?



Well, with all due respect to Coventry, the ruined cathedral is the only building commonly associated with the city (apart from Belgrade Theatre Coventry)

Yes, that is true. The Victorians modified the Cathedral quite a lot (Including the tower, which was in a poor state of repair) and this included adding metal beams. During the blitz, the Cathedral was hit by incendiary devices and the heat from the fires caused the metal to buckle which is what caused the collapse.

Well my 'reconstruction' would involve a lot of glass so it would be a building but still retain the 'broken' feel.

You mean no one knows about Coventry's Elephant Sports' centre? :-) The shopping precinct is/was quite famous, but I think it's just considered a bit of a dump these days. :-)
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Old January 4th, 2016, 02:17 PM   #563
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If it doesn't have to be Germanic, the city I'd recommend is Vieux Lyon, possibly the most underrated late medieval city in Europe.
I definitely support that. Maybe Lyon is not the most underrated one (there are many contenders for that title) but surely it deserves more attention. And it has some significant part of Roman heritage too!
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Old January 4th, 2016, 02:49 PM   #564
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German old towns were among the most authentic and valuable on the face of this planet until WW2, only matched by Italy in a global comparison.
Don't forget France in that respect. If some major European country could be called underrated that would be France, I think. Maybe it's a result of its hyper-centralization: almost all of France's fame is taken by Paris. And many great French cities somehow get lost in the shadow of the capital. Lyon was already mentioned here, and there are much more. Nancy has one of the most beautiful squares in the world but do many people know about it? Nimes and Vienne possess Roman temples in a condition you'll hardly find in Italy. And so on.

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Imho Berlin's Memorial Church is a different case though, it was a neo-romanic church that only became iconic as a ruin. And there are similar church buildings scattered across Germany and even Berlin, so it never had such a special status as say the Coventry Cathedral, Potsdam's Garrison Church or Dresden's Frauenkirche. It clearly wasn't a low profile building, but I think it adds a more interesting layer to Berlin than as a reconstructed building, there are already many churches in the city left abandoned of their sacral use.
In addition, the City West is very heterogenous so a reconstructed historicist church doesn't add a lot of harmony and would seem a little off in its context. There are much more important buildings of Berlin that need to be reconstructed, like Monbijou Palace.
I agree. Overall (it's a personal opinion, of course) that church wasn't too much of an architecture gem, to put it mildly. Its pre-war pictures don't strike me as a big loss, unlike the ones of many other lost (or half-lost) Berlin sights.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 02:57 PM   #565
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But what does he call 'Disney' then? Especially in reference to the 19th century? The only major alteration of various old towns in Germany happened around the cathedrals and some other landmarks that were turned into solitary buildings, by tearing down surrounding old houses. But mostly nothing was built in their place, so I fail to see how "fake" looking buildings were created there.

German old towns were among the most authentic and valuable on the face of this planet until WW2, only matched by Italy in a global comparison.


Imho Berlin's Memorial Church is a different case though, it was a neo-romanic church that only became iconic as a ruin. And there are similar church buildings scattered across Germany and even Berlin, so it never had such a special status as say the Coventry Cathedral, Potsdam's Garrison Church or Dresden's Frauenkirche. It clearly wasn't a low profile building, but I think it adds a more interesting layer to Berlin than as a reconstructed building, there are already many churches in the city left abandoned of their sacral use.

In addition, the City West is very heterogenous so a reconstructed historicist church doesn't add a lot of harmony and would seem a little off in its context. There are much more important buildings of Berlin that need to be reconstructed, like Monbijou Palace.
Berlin's Memorial Church really does need to be properly reconstructed.. as does Monbijou Palace.

The war ended over over 70 years ago. Enough with ruins, missing buildings and/or simplified crap passing for memorials. Make Europe's cities right again.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 10:00 PM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Roy Beam View Post
Berlin's Memorial Church really does need to be properly reconstructed.. as does Monbijou Palace.

The war ended over over 70 years ago. Enough with ruins, missing buildings and/or simplified crap passing for memorials. Make Europe's cities right again.
But what IS a right city? I myself hate those ruins that serve as a memorial, especially if it's architecturally and emotionally important building, like Frauenkirche or Coventry Cathedral, but we are talking about a historicist church in a city that had its best times and biggest construction boom during that time, so there are piles of historicist buildings all over Berlin that need to be renovated and restored. This church is not one of them as there isn't much left of the original structure, and the new, modern church is kinda popular, even though I personally dislike it. I agree that cities shouldn't look like they were bombed yesterday, but something like this church should stay as it is to remind us of the horrors of wars. A city can't be right if it erases whole parts of history that don't suit it. It should erase it if it helps with development and urban renewal, like demolition of huge commieblocks, and leave only a small bit that isn't completely garbage (Fernsehturm), but we are talking here about a single historicist church in a predominantly commercial area.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 10:23 PM   #567
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history never die..........................................
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Old January 4th, 2016, 11:46 PM   #568
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In addition, anyone who's ever been to Berlin will agree the Memorial Church ruin totally fits the city. It adds another somewhat irritating but exciting layer to this city full of contrasts.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 12:24 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksLazarevic View Post
Example?
Göttingen
Quote:
Im Zuge dieses Vorhabens wurden große Teile der, da im Krieg unzerstörten, gut erhaltenen Altstadt im Rahmen sog. "Flächensanierungen " vollständig abgerissen und durch Neubauten, Parkhäuser oder Brachflächen ersetzt
Or, loosely translated:
Quote:
In line with the plan large parts of the old town, undamaged by the war, where demolished in so-called 'Surface Renovations' and replaced by new buildings, parking garages and empty plots
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göttingen

Hameln
In Hameln, simmilar plans where largely halted only thanks to very active citizen protests:
Quote:
So wurde 1967 vom Stadtrat beschlossen, Grundstücke aufzukaufen, Häuser abzureißen, ein Kaufhaus und einen Omnibusbahnhof zu errichten. [..] Als die Pläne bekannt waren und erste Abrisse erfolgten, erhob sich aber auch Protest aus der Bevölkerung. Zahlreiche alte Häuser sollten der Sanierung zum Opfer fallen.
In English:
Quote:
In 1967, the city council decided to buy plots, demolish houses and build a department store and bus terminal. [..] When the plans became known and the first demolishing started, protests arose from the citizens. Many old houses would have fallen victim to these renovations.
http://www.historisches-weserberglan...in-hameln.html

True, both cities are still very nice. But a still a lot of buildings undamaged in the war were lost and in Hameln, it was almost a lot more than that. And remember that 'undamaged by war' was rare in those days. In other words, it is very true that, for those in charge at least, preserving what was left was not a priority in the sixties.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 12:34 PM   #570
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but I don't see the problem with reconstructing buildings like Frauenkirche or Coventry Cathedral, both of which were a fine example of their architectural style (still don't understand why Frauenkirche is not a UNESCO World Heritage Site, as one of the most opulently decorated Protestant Baroque churches, and the whole reconstruction process that united the whole world is very unique and unprecedented).
The Frauenkirche used to be part of the 'Dresden Elde Valley' World Heritage Site. This site was removed from the list after a conflict about a new bridge which would pass through part of the site. Of course, Dresden itself could easily be a new World Heritage Site on its own, but as the committee first threatened to remove Dresden when the bridge was planned and then did so after Dresden had to build the bridge after all, I assume by now some ego is at stake.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Elbe_Valley
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Old January 8th, 2016, 02:51 PM   #571
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In addition, anyone who's ever been to Berlin will agree the Memorial Church ruin totally fits the city. It adds another somewhat irritating but exciting layer to this city full of contrasts.
It is very similar to the Mary Magdalene Church in Buda, Hungary. The Mary Magdalene church was the main place of worship for Hungarian Christians in the Middle Ages (back then, Matthias Church primarily served the German community. Buda had a mixed German-Hungarian population). It sustained the most severe damage during World War 2, when everything but the chuch's tower was destroyed. Visitors can walk through the church's ruins, which acts as a reminder of what the Castle District looked like before post-war reconstruction took place.

_5D30952 by Bruce MacLennan, on Flickr
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Old January 8th, 2016, 04:57 PM   #572
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I'm not sure if anybody had posted this but in the Pacific Theater, one of the most decimated cities was the Philippine capital, Manila. Before the war, the city was home to dozens of magnificent baroque churches, sleek art-deco facades, tree-lined avenues, teeming department stores and theaters, and a collection of grand neo-classical buildings.

Calle Rosario, 1920s
Rosario Street, Manila, Philippines, 1920s by John Tewell, on Flickr

Puerta de Santa Lucia (Santa Lucia Gate), 1903. Emulating many medieval European cities, the old city of Manila was completely surrounded by thick walls. There also used to be moat.
Puerta de Santa Lucia gate, Intramuros, Manila, Philippines, 1903-1904 by John Tewell, on Flickr

Manila's Legislative Building after Allied bombardment, 1945
Legislative Building, Manila, Philippines, WWII damage, 1945 by John Tewell, on Flickr

Ruins of churches four years after the bombardment of Manila. These churches were never rebuilt.
Recoletos Church, Lourdes Church, Intramuros, Manila, Philippines, Oct. 10, 1949 by John Tewell, on Flickr

Rubbles of buildings in Manila's Santa Cruz district
2. Looking north across Santa Cruz Bridge, Battle of Manila, Philippines, Feb. 1945 by John Tewell, on Flickr

More than 100,000 residents died during the Liberation of Manila in 1945. The Japanese refused to give up the city without a fight. The resulting battle was devastating, taking away not only lives but also the soul of a city that once heralded itself as the "Pearl of the Orient"
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Old January 8th, 2016, 05:09 PM   #573
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There is another thread where the user @thespliffairy posted a lot of pics of destruction brought to cities by all sorts of wars, and the devastating effects on Asian cities was indeed incredible.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 05:10 PM   #574
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What a great thread. So sad to see what has been lost all over Europe due to war.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 10:04 PM   #575
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You mean no one knows about Coventry's Elephant Sports' centre? :-) The shopping precinct is/was quite famous, but I think it's just considered a bit of a dump these days. :-)
Well, my knowledge of England is a little bit rusty and I spent only 3-4 hours in Coventry anyway (actually I quite enjoyed it), but I must admit that to me personally, the bombing of 1940 is the only thing associated with this city. And the main reason to visit the city was to see how was it rebuilt.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 10:14 PM   #576
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Well, my knowledge of England is a little bit rusty and I spent only 3-4 hours in Coventry anyway (actually I quite enjoyed it), but I must admit that to me personally, the bombing of 1940 is the only thing associated with this city. And the main reason to visit the city was to see how was it rebuilt.
It's not actually that bad. Just different to most other cities and a little 'back to front'.

Years ago (In the 1990s when the city centre was very run down) a local MP stood up in parliament and asked 'What can we do about Coventry City centre?'

Another MP stood up and said 'Bomb it again!'
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Old January 16th, 2016, 11:05 PM   #577
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It's not actually that bad. Just different to most other cities and a little 'back to front'.
Precisely. Might have been worse.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 12:48 AM   #578
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Precisely. Might have been worse.
It can also become better.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 02:41 PM   #579
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Old City Center of Sofia, Bulgaria. Destroyed by English and American bombers during the Second World War, although Bulgaria was on the side of Nazi Germany, she never participated in any military conflicts, deportations or ethnic discriminations.

The Old City Center of Sofia, the present capital and capital of the Third Bulgarian Kingdom:



Whole Neighborhood, which was destroyed:







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Old January 17th, 2016, 02:53 PM   #580
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Old City Center of Sofia, Bulgaria. Destroyed by English and American bombers during the Second World War, although Bulgaria was on the side of Nazi Germany, she never participated in any military conflicts, deportations or ethnic discriminations.

The Old City Center of Sofia, the present capital and capital of the Third Bulgarian Kingdom:









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