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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:41 AM   #121
the spliff fairy
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The reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for the atom bombs was because Tokyo was already destroyed (along with all the other major cities):







One could see 8 miles across to the next standing building:



US maps showing severe bomb damage

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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:51 AM   #122
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other cities:

Osaka





Shizuoka



Yokohama




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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:56 AM   #123
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Manila, the most destroyed Allied city after Warsaw, known as the Pearl of the Orient.










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[img]https://encrypted-tbn1.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjdpvo_U40SdCy3tun6AeC3S_ggSXuf1f6lbXNVCFAA3iiKGxTvA[/img]
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:01 AM   #124
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100,000 civilians died in the battle as US forces bombed the occupied city, followed by bitter street fighting











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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:12 AM   #125
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The City of London was really beautiful, pity it was hit badly, same for some of the West End gems that was lost.

Also, Tokyo before the war resembles current day Shanghai a little bit (the low rise areas). I know the area around Nanjing Road has several stunning art deco buildings. Luckily Shanghai wasn't destroyed like Japanese cities. It is sad that Tokyo was hastily reconstructed with banal boxy buildings from the 50's and 60's without any thought for aesthetics.

Manila's colonial buildings are a sad loss too.

I know that HK destroyed itself due to development taking no account of history. That also was a city filled with great old colonial architecture that needed no war to finish them off. However, given the space constraints and economic ambitions, it is only logical that this happened.

Last edited by aquablue; January 31st, 2013 at 01:22 AM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:41 AM   #126
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As I said before: damage to London was roughly comparable with that on berlin (including the Soviet assault). Both loosing 1 million houses destroyed or badly damaged (so that they later were put away).

BUT Londen was 2 x size of berlin (so the relative damage to Berlin was 2 times that of London) AND damage to Berlin was against the well to do areas whereas in London the more poverty areas were hit.

BUT in London ca 40.000 civilians died and in Berlin about 22.000 by bombing (no millions as is said her above) and 22.000 by the Soviet assault (excluding suicides for losing the War of fear of rape by the Soviet hordes).

In total 400.000+ Germans died by the hands of the Allied airforces and particular by the headless butcher Harris (supported by Portal and Churchill).

Ruble of Berlin was 10% over total rubble within Greater Germany, but victims of air war was about 5% of total number of victims. This is because Berlin was build with extra strong thick houses, spacious streets, well laid out cellars (connected to as many ways out as possible. Germany was ligt years ahead of other countries. Their army and fire brigades acted as professional soldiers to fight fires. Berlin's thich Gründerzeit buildings were difficult to set fire to in contrary to the more lighter structures in other German cities.

Berlin had also 3 huge indestructable air raid bunkers.

Air defenses of Berlin were truly formidable and the city was hidden in large forests deep inside the Reich.
Later in the war German nightfighters of the Heinkel 219 shot down scores of Mosquitos which were before quite invulnarable.

In the first battle of Berlin at least 9000 RAF air men died against 7.500 Berliner civilians. So the RAF lost even more specialists than Germany civilians (mostly women, children en older people). The first air battle against Berlin ended in an indisputable German victory. So is that written in my air campaing books. German nightfighters shot down over 1000 heavies against own losses of 25 night fighters.
Ok, the well-to-do Hansa Viertel near the Tiergarten was destroyed as many beautiful streets and squares in the rich western areas of Berlin of Charlottenburg, Wilmersdorf and Schöneberg.
This makes it look like Germany won the war. These stats continue to bewilder me. Even Harris' full account after the war showed over 6500 acres of total destruction in Berlin vs 600 in London...a 10X multiple and variance. How could the damage be "comparable"?
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:53 AM   #127
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Shanghai actually suffered quite heavily during WWII - nearly 40,000 died in 1932 at the start of the Sino-Japanese war that would continue into WWII, and it was the scene of a 3.5 month long battle 5 years later that involved over 1 million troops, with 320,000 killed and thousands missing. They fought a house to house battle in the centre and along the coast, akin to Stalingrad. The fall of Shanghai directly led the Japanese on the road to the infamously ill-fated Nanjing, the de-facto capital after the fall of Beijing.

Its not much publicised as the foreigners were evacuated as the very first bombs began falling, and the battle was between the KMT troops and Japan, not the communists.

Zhabei district on fire











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Refugees flee the city after the Bund is bombed by Chinese pilots. If you've seen the Spielberg film Empire of the Sun, this is where JG Ballard loses his parents in the mass panic.




Last edited by the spliff fairy; January 31st, 2013 at 02:24 AM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 03:24 AM   #128
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For me - Frankfurt and Coventry, maybe Nuremberg
Why? Because they had a lot of pre-baroque buildings, even whole streets of medieval houses. This is vary rare in today's big cities.
It's a myth that Coventry was this fabulous, untouched medieval city prior to World War 2. Unfortunately, like most English cities, it lost the majority of its remaining timber-framed buildings in slum clearance operations during the first decades of the 20th century i.e. they were already gone before 1940.

The fact is that, prior to WW2, England had nothing to compare with the medieval centres of Frankfurt, Braunschweig, Nuremberg, etc. etc. The Georgians and Victorians demolished most of it and much of what survived the Second World War was then destroyed by post-war townplanners. It could even be argued that, in England at least, townplanners in the 1950s and 1960s destroyed as much as the German bombs. Many city centres in England today that were almost untouched by Nazi bombers, like Winchester, Salisbury, Worcester and Gloucester have been totally defaced by post-war redevelopment.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 03:55 AM   #129
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Exeter was regarded as the most picturesque city in southern England prior to World War Two. It was the first target of the Baedeker Raids in 1942 and is therefore one of a tiny handful of European cities that was attacked primarily because of its cultural importance. Unfortunately, apart from the cathedral itself, the vast majority of the buildings shown in the photographs below have since been destroyed, either as a result of enemy action or through deliberation demolition during so-called post-war 'redevelopment' in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.



Exeter in 1928:









http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/a...?search=exeter
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Old January 31st, 2013, 04:20 AM   #130
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Old January 31st, 2013, 07:02 AM   #131
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What a sadness, so many lives and great history lost.

Regarding Manila, it's destruction was not necessary at all. The Japanese were close to capitulation when General McArthur decided to destroy the city.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:36 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
The City of London was really beautiful, pity it was hit badly, same for some of the West End gems that was lost.
It was hit more badly than than many other parts of London, however, post-war planners inflicted far more damage on London than the Luftwaffe ever did. You should visit the Lost London thread in the UK section and look at some of the streetscapes and aerials of the city from the 1950s and you'll find that it is absurd to compare London to Berlin or any other major German city as far as war time damage is concerned.

Gems like Columbia Market, London Bridge, The Imperial Institute, The Imperial Hotel, Euston Station etc were all destroyed after the war. Old streets like Thames Street, Farringdon Street etc were also demolished post war. Photographs also show us that much of the East End was still intact, however, by the late 70s slum clearance and house building programs had ruined much of it. Most of the old warehouses in The City were also still standing after the war, but were then shamefully pulled down in the 60s and 70s.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 01:07 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
How much of Milan's historic center was destroyed? There are a lot of modern buildings in The old center. Is that due to war damage?
Black: destroyed. Grey: damaged. Milan had and still has an outstanding architectural heritage. There are more historical churches in Milan than in any European capital, apart from Rome. Milan was damaged during WWII but not completely destroyed. In doesn't look so genuinely antique if compared to other italian cities due to very bad urban planning over the last 120 years. The fascist authorities for istance had destroyed many historical buildings before WWII in the reckless attempt to shape the city according to their criteria of "modernity".

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Old January 31st, 2013, 03:10 PM   #134
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Wishes for an organized thread

May I ask that we in the further posts add a clear title, (For example: London - The capital of the British empire), a short line showing the pre-war population and the Coat of Arms of the city. Then add images

Like this:

London - The capital of the British empire
Pre-war population: 8 100 000

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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:47 PM   #135
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Quote:
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Black: destroyed. Grey: damaged. Milan had and still has an outstanding architectural heritage. There are more historical churches in Milan than in any European capital, apart from Rome. Milan was damaged during WWII but not completely destroyed. In doesn't look so genuinely antique if compared to other italian cities due to very bad urban planning over the last 120 years. The fascist authorities for istance had destroyed many historical buildings before WWII in the reckless attempt to shape the city according to their criteria of "modernity".

That's very interesting, thanks. Looks like it sustained a fair bit of damage.

I've been to Milan and yes, it has some beautiful architecture that was spared the poor planning and war thankfully.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:39 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by the spliff fairy View Post
The reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for the atom bombs was because Tokyo was already destroyed (along with all the other major cities):
Absolutely pointless destruction. There were no "good guys" in that war.
But at least despite all the destruction, Japan managed to bounce back extraordinarily well.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 10:21 PM   #137
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Stuttgart - Germany (Entire historic core destroyed during WWII)
Pre-war population: 460 000



Stuttgart started out on a small scale: tradition tells us that Herzog Liudolf von Schwaben started a stud farm in a widened area of the Nesenbach valley in the year 950 AD.

In 1812, Stuttgart was the Royal capital and city of residence. For centuries, the settlement that evolved was overshadowed by Cannstatt, the site of the largest and most important Roman castle in the central Neckar area. Despite heavy destruction, in particular during the Second World War, the city's history is clearly evident even in the modern Stuttgart. Architecturally speaking, this can clearly be seen in the Schillerplatz with the Old Castle, which together form a Renaissance ensemble, the Baroque New Castle, as the residence of the Dukes and later the Kings of Württemberg, and Neo-Classical buildings such as the Königsbau.

[IMG]http://i47.************/nvxlj4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i47.************/339twyw.jpg[/IMG]



http://www.stuttgart.de/img/mdb/item/286036/27659.jpg


http://www.ak-ansichtskarten.de/shop...ss-Strasse.jpg


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Old February 1st, 2013, 03:55 AM   #138
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I wish the UK would follow Germany and Poland's lead and rebuild it's lost buildings. Cities like Exeter, Coventry and Swansea, considered these days as unattractive cities could be beautiful once more.
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Old February 1st, 2013, 05:03 PM   #139
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Since we are talking about Poland and Germany

Breslau/Wrocław - The capital of Silesia (70 percent of the city destroyed during Festung Breslau 1945 (february-may).
Pre-war population: 625 200



All images are from the http://dolnoslaskie.fotopolska.eu site.

Wrocław was originally founded on Cathedral Island (Ostrów Tumski). The first recorded Polish ruler, Duke Mieszko I, brought the town, together with most of Silesia, into the Polish state. It must have been a fair-sized settlement by the turn of the first millennium, as it was chosen, along with Kraków and Kołobrzeg, as one of the Piast Poland’s three bishoprics.

Wrocław continued to grow under Bohemian administration (1335–1526), reaching perhaps the height of its prosperity in the 15th century and maintaining trade and cultural links with the Polish Crown. This speedy development led to the construction of new fortifications at the beginning of the 16th century, and the remains of the Fosa Miejska (City Moat) show where they were once positioned.
The Habsburgs, who ruled the city for the next two centuries, were less tolerant of the Polish and Czech communities, and things got even worse for the Slavic populations after 1741, when Wrocław fell to Prussia. For the next two centuries the city was increasingly Germanised and became known as Breslau.
As one of the major eastern outposts of the Reich, Breslau was given a key defensive role in the last stages of WWII, converting the whole city into a fortified compound. Besieged by the Red Army in February 1945, the Nazis defended their last bastion, Fortress Breslau, until May, executing anyone who refused to fight. During the battle, 75% of the city was razed to the ground.











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Old February 1st, 2013, 07:49 PM   #140
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Hohenzollernstrasse Breslau

Quite impressive those German boulevards in Breslau (Berlin, Stettin and Magdeburg).

How does this street looks today??

KeepthePast: 6500 acres Berlin versus only 600 in London: 10 to 1 with same M3 Rubble and same amount of destroyed houses?
This can only be true if each German house is ten times as large as a English house.

They are yoking again with stats.

And Germany lost of coarse its air war, but start 1944 the situation looked grimm for the Allies, so the victory of Berlin was at that moment reality.
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